questions about the apocrypha

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Rising_Suns

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See this is in part why i'm Catholic; the people are awesome and so helpfull. You can see people's words backed up with the passion and love in their hearts. I have not found that on the other denominational forums like I do on this Catholic forum.
 
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Rising_Suns

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Jeff,
I'm glad I could be of service to you. :)

Kimber,
I am curious if you are strongly considering joining the Catholic faith. If you are, then praise God and bless your soul. We welcome you with open arms. I want you to know that you have brothers and sisters here on the Christian forums no matter what you decide. God has brought you to this point for a reason, and it is times where we must step out in faith, that Satan is lurking in our shadow waiting for the most opportune moment to trip us up. Remember to be on your gaurd, and never give Satan anything to use against against you.

We believe kimber, that the Catholic faith is the beautiful church founded by our loving savior Jesus Christ, and the only church that has stood the test of time for 2000 years. Nothing else has. And so kimber, I encourage you to pray about this deeply, and let God move in you to step out of your comfort zone into the next level of faith. There are plenty of RCIA (Rite of Catholic initiation for adults) programs at church's. You must complete this program before you can become a member of the Catholic faith. All it is, is simply a learning program, designed to teach you about the heart of the Catholic faith. I implore you to go through one of these programs so you learn as much about our faith as possible. You don't even have to commit yourself to converting. If you still feel like the Catholic faith is not right for you after the program, then you are not bound and you can return to your church. But I deeply implore you to give it a chance.

May the peace of our Lord be with you.
 
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kimber1

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rising suns, i looked at that thread you started! thank you!! adn thank you everyone else for being so sweet to me about all this.

i don't know exactly what it is i'm doing yet. i am still so confused and overwhelmed by it all. i mean, what bothers me is how a Baptist can explain a passage of scripture adn it makes perfect sense to me and then a Catholic can eplain the very same passage and it makes sense in how y'all interpret it too.

so then my question comes-- who is interpreting it right? i so love the way my pastor can explain things in ways i actually "get it" adn have to be honest in admitting that to me it seems that aspect of it would be lacking in a Catholic church. (no offense :)) but then again, it could be all in the way you've been raised right?

y'alls service seems so peaceful adn quiet and sobering adn i guess that's because you observe the Eucharist every Sunday whereas i think we do it once a month.

and also, i have to admit i'd be a little (well okay a LOT) intimidated by the quietness of it all. like in my church if i'm so compelled to say "praise God" or "amen" i do so adn reading the explanation of what Mass is like, i'd be scared i'd get ushered to the door!!

I seriously hope noone takes offense by anything i'm trying to say! i'm not the best with words!!

I do intend to keep reading about Catholicism though because i honestly do not know where God is leading me. obviously there's a reason why i'm questioning things so much. i need to seriously pray about all this because i just feel lost.

i may have problems with some of y'alls beliefs but i think it's because of my Baptist background and it's hard if not impossible to throw that all out the window. i want to make sure it's God leading me and not anything else.

i do want to say, i have a lot more respect for Catholics than before. i can understand your frustration with Protestants now. and why you hold your Church so dear.

i still want to learn, just y'all bear with me okay!!
 
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DJ B.K.

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I just wanted to thank you all too for all the info on the catholic church. I too can see your frustration with protestants. I have been a catholic since I was orn but recently questioned my faith and experimented with different churches. I believe now I'm gonig back to catholicism.

:prayer:
 
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KennySe

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kimber1 said:
i don't know exactly what it is i'm doing yet. i am still so confused and overwhelmed by it all.

Kimber,
The Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you. :hug:

Your post shows such sincerity and humility that I am truly getting misty-eyed! You're touching my heart.

y'alls service seems so peaceful adn quiet and sobering adn i guess that's because you observe the Eucharist every Sunday whereas i think we do it once a month.

We have the Eucharist every day, actually. Sunday is the Lord's Day (and thus what we call "A Day of Holy Obligation")

and also, i have to admit i'd be a little (well okay a LOT) intimidated by the quietness of it all. like in my church if i'm so compelled to say "praise God" or "amen" i do so adn reading the explanation of what Mass is like, i'd be scared i'd get ushered to the door!!

I'm getting misty-eyes again. :)
I imagine you would sit there, following along in the missalette (as best you can cuz it can be a maze [see my earlier post]). And you would find that the service is not all that quiet, with the prayers, singing, etc.

I seriously hope noone takes offense by anything i'm trying to say! i'm not the best with words!!

Kimber,
Your words are FANTASTIC! I feel the love :pink: and sincerity and respect that you are conveying.

I do intend to keep reading about Catholicism though because i honestly do not know where God is leading me. obviously there's a reason why i'm questioning things so much. i need to seriously pray about all this because i just feel lost.

Leave the driving to Him.

i may have problems with some of y'alls beliefs but i think it's because of my Baptist background and it's hard if not impossible to throw that all out the window. i want to make sure it's God leading me and not anything else.

AMEN! :pray: Beautifully worded!

P.S. I'm a cradle Catholic and *I* have problems with some of the beliefs. SO, why should you be any different? :D

i do want to say, i have a lot more respect for Catholics than before. i can understand your frustration with Protestants now. and why you hold your Church so dear.

Thank you for your empathy. God bless you.

i still want to learn, just y'all bear with me okay!!

Okay seventy times seven times!
 
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Rising_Suns

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P.O.D. Cincy Warrior said:
I just wanted to thank you all too for all the info on the catholic church. I too can see your frustration with protestants. I have been a catholic since I was orn but recently questioned my faith and experimented with different churches. I believe now I'm gonig back to catholicism.

:prayer:

Hey warrior,
I'm happy to hear of your choice. I saw you over at the thread I began at the Orthodox Catholic board. Quite interesting suff no? It seems like it is a slight reformation of the Roman Catholic faith, but a little too wattered down for me.

Kimber,
God bless your soul, and may He lead you in everything you do.
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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P.O.D. Cincy Warrior said:
I just wanted to thank you all too for all the info on the catholic church. I too can see your frustration with protestants. I have been a catholic since I was orn but recently questioned my faith and experimented with different churches. I believe now I'm gonig back to catholicism.


:hug:
 
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kimber1

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okay i have another question for y'all. i figured i'd keep it here since those of you who responded before will most likely get an email that i posted again with the subscribing thingy but ...

what is y'alls view on the rapture adn the tribulation?
 
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nyj

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kimber1 said:
what is y'alls view on the rapture adn the tribulation?

The Catholic Church believes that Christ will return once more, to judge the living and the dead (as stated in the Nicene Creed). Therefore we do not believe that when Paul used the word "rapture" that he meant that we'd be taken from this earth before the Lord returns. The Catholic Church also believes in an amillenial theology, so there will be no thousand year reign on earth as professed by many. Christ said that He Himself, would not have an earthly Kingdom.

That's an abbreviated view, and if you'd like I (or someone else) can furnish you with additional information in the way of links, books, etc.
 
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Skripper

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nyj,

Where does Paul use the word "rapture"? I wasn't aware this word (or its Greek equivalent) was even in the Bible. I know those who believe in a "rapture" and what it means to them cite a few common verses, such as 1 Thess. 4:17 and a few others, but I am unaware of the actual word "rapture" appearing in the Bible. Where is it and what translation has it? Thanks.
 
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St-Irénée

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Skripper said:
nyj,

Where does Paul use the word "rapture"? I wasn't aware this word (or its Greek equivalent) was even in the Bible. I know those who believe in a "rapture" and what it means to them cite a few common verses, such as 1 Thess. 4:17 and a few others, but I am unaware of the actual word "rapture" appearing in the Bible. Where is it and what translation has it? Thanks.

Paul doesn't use it, but St. Jerome, when he translated "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 as "rapiemur" which has the same root as "rapture" and it is from there that we see a "biblical" basis for the Rapture.

However:

Jesus Himself said: "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." (John 17:15)

This prayer is not for the Apostles alone, but for all who come to know the Gospel through them (v. 20).

In fact, does Jesus not already echo this sentiment in Matthew 24:9?:

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

NO WHERE does Jesus say His Church will be spared from persecution in the end-times. The Rapture is a farce, a man-made heresy!

Apart from this, there is simply no Scripture (other than through twisting the meaning) which supports "three" comings of Christ.

Heb. 9:24 tells us, that "Christ will appear only a second time, when he comes in glory to save us." See also Rev. 19:11-16. The Scriptures only reveal two comings of Christ.

If you are a Bible-believing Christian, you cannot believe the Rapture!

The money-making scheme of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and their brood finds its origins in 1830:

"[when] a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history."
(Karl Keating, "Catholic Answers")

Many people try to say Paul preached about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 4:17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Protestants call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible, it comes from the Latin Vulgate, where "caught up" is translated as "rapiemur" which has the same root). This theory says that Christ will take the faithful up to heaven before the final coming. But the "Rapture" preached in most fundamentalist churches today is FAR from what the Bible describes:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (v. 16)

Now, this verse HARDLY matches the "secret disappearance" theory the fundamentalists with their man-made doctrine have been trying to espouse. Sounds like a big, noisy, gala affair!

Now, LaHaye and other false prophets have tried to say, "Well, only the believers can hear all this going on." Oh really? Care to provide any scriptural proof?

For JESUS SAID: ""At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. THEY WILL SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:30-31)

Clearly, this is a VISIBLE event...

Now, what about Matthew 24:40-41? Don't these verses support the Rapture: "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

NO, they do NOT. For Jesus is describing His SECOND COMING, and the end of the world... But READ and UNDERSTAND the words of the Lord, my brethren:

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (Matt. 24:27-39)

Remember that those who were "LEFT BEHIND" in the days of Noah were the RIGHTEOUS -- Noah and his family!!!! As you see in verse 39 of Matthew 24, those whom the Lord "took away" are those who PERISHED!!!

So rather than believe in the teachings of FALSE PROPHETS (Matt 24:11; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1) who are making millions on books and movies, believe only the WORD OF GOD, the source of our LIFE!

Amen.
 
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Skripper

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St-Irénée said:
Paul doesn't use it, but St. Jerome, when he translated "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 as "rapiemur" which has the same root as "rapture" and it is from there that we see a "biblical" basis for the Rapture.

However:

Jesus Himself said: "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." (John 17:15)

This prayer is not for the Apostles alone, but for all who come to know the Gospel through them (v. 20).

In fact, does Jesus not already echo this sentiment in Matthew 24:9?:

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

NO WHERE does Jesus say His Church will be spared from persecution in the end-times. The Rapture is a farce, a man-made heresy!

Apart from this, there is simply no Scripture (other than through twisting the meaning) which supports "three" comings of Christ.

Heb. 9:24 tells us, that "Christ will appear only a second time, when he comes in glory to save us." See also Rev. 19:11-16. The Scriptures only reveal two comings of Christ.

If you are a Bible-believing Christian, you cannot believe the Rapture!

The money-making scheme of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and their brood finds its origins in 1830:

"[when] a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history."
(Karl Keating, "Catholic Answers")

Many people try to say Paul preached about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 4:17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Protestants call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible, it comes from the Latin Vulgate, where "caught up" is translated as "rapiemur" which has the same root). This theory says that Christ will take the faithful up to heaven before the final coming. But the "Rapture" preached in most fundamentalist churches today is FAR from what the Bible describes:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (v. 16)

Now, this verse HARDLY matches the "secret disappearance" theory the fundamentalists with their man-made doctrine have been trying to espouse. Sounds like a big, noisy, gala affair!

Now, LaHaye and other false prophets have tried to say, "Well, only the believers can hear all this going on." Oh really? Care to provide any scriptural proof?

For JESUS SAID: ""At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. THEY WILL SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:30-31)

Clearly, this is a VISIBLE event...

Now, what about Matthew 24:40-41? Don't these verses support the Rapture: "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

NO, they do NOT. For Jesus is describing His SECOND COMING, and the end of the world... But READ and UNDERSTAND the words of the Lord, my brethren:

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (Matt. 24:27-39)

Remember that those who were "LEFT BEHIND" in the days of Noah were the RIGHTEOUS -- Noah and his family!!!! As you see in verse 39 of Matthew 24, those whom the Lord "took away" are those who PERISHED!!!

So rather than believe in the teachings of FALSE PROPHETS (Matt 24:11; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1) who are making millions on books and movies, believe only the WORD OF GOD, the source of our LIFE!

Amen.

Thanks. Lots of information in that post.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Basically, I see the rapture as 100% false. St-Irénée hit the nail right on the head when she mentioned those who are 'left behind', since Jesus's analogy in Matt 24:37-41 tell us that those who are 'taken' are the ungodly.

Anyway, if I remember correctly, the idea of a secret rapture began with Darby and his crew of followers. Prior to his influence, Protestantism adopted for the most part the amillennial or postmillennial position, which were both more positive end times views as compared to the negative view that premillennialism teaches (i.e. the rapture view).

Many believe the gospel would be preached to the whole 'world' before Christ comes (Matt 24:14), yet the bible tells us that's already been fulfilled, since Jesus was referring to the Roman Empire, not entire globe. So this would make sense out of the following passages:

Rom 1:8, Rom 10:16-17, Col 1:6, Col 1:23

Also, the greek word for 'world' in Matt 24:14 is Oikoumene, which is the same word used in the following verse:

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Unfortunately, people like Lahaye and his buddies make tons of interpretive errors when it comes to this kind of stuff. They also translate Matthew 24:34's 'generation' to mean race, which if you think about it is antisemitic. But I guess I'm rambling too much.. ;)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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KennySe

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Hello, kimber

As always, the Peace of Christ be with you.

I chuckle because it seems like every question you have, we have an answer which seems to be different than what you've been taught or have heard in the past.

what is y'alls view on the rapture adn the tribulation?

Before I give my view, here's a link to a one-hour radio program which is discussing that very subject.
You have to ckick on the July 14 topic" Will Catholics be 'Left Behind'?", in order to hear the program (and it's free!) Just hit the "listen" link under Carl Olsen. You need RealPlayer on your comp.
What you will find the best, in my opinion, is the call-in questions to the guest and his answers.
http://www.catholic.com/radio/calive.asp?date=7/1/2003

I purchased his book a few months prior to this interview, and only by THIS Catholic Forum, have I learned of the radio archives on all sorts of "Catholic" subjects. I very much enjoyed listening to the program a few days ago!

***

And now for MY view on the subject of the rapture.

I feel that some Christian evangelizers are "using the rapture" as a scare tactic to bring people to Jesus. "Repent! Believe in Jesus; become a Christian... or go through the End Times Tribulation!"

Should we be happy that people are becoming Christians because they want to escape "hell-on Earth"? I don't think so.
1) Are they "really" becoming Christians because they have come to Love Him.. or because they want a "Get out of Trib free" card, like a Monopoly Game card?
2) How long will they "remain" Christians if the Rapture doesn't come soon enough to take them from the trials and everyday tribulations of life? Will they get fed up and turn FURTHER from Christ, because he "didn't deliver"?
3) Will these "new Christians", because they want to escape the tribulation", be lights to the world: feeding the hungery, clothing the naked, etc... or will they figure that they don't need to bother helping unsaved people, that all they (the new Christians) need to do is wait a short time for the ride of their lives. (So long, suckers! WHEE!!!!)?

****

I wrote a post on another set of boards, where I refuted a Christian website's article on the Rapture. I invited the author to a debate on the subject, and he kindly declined.

If you would like to read HIS article and my refution of it, I can PM you.

I also refuted a book author who wrote a book on the end times, who proclaimed the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as fact. I had read his book some years ago, and having kept it, I was able to refute it, too.
(Just a few months ago.)

Above all, Kimber, the Peace of Christ be with you.
 
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Spotty

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I used to be one of the most active supporters of the per-tribulation rapture. Then, I opened my eyes to many other aspects of eschatology, and I realized that it was indeed, to my humiliated regret, an ideal which was simply unbiblical.

Now, that doesn't mean to say that a "rapture" of sorts doesn't exist, Paul clearly testifies to this in II Thess. However, this foot loose and fancy free rapture which fundamentalists preach is simply not credible, and despite their good intentions, it should be categorized with other new Christian eisegesis.

-Spotty
 
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Spotty said:
I used to be one of the most active supporters of the per-tribulation rapture. Then, I opened my eyes to many other aspects of eschatology, and I realized that it was indeed, to my humiliated regret, an ideal which was simply unbiblical.

Now, that doesn't mean to say that a "rapture" of sorts doesn't exist, Paul clearly testifies to this in II Thess. However, this foot loose and fancy free rapture which fundamentalists preach is simply not credible, and despite their good intentions, it should be categorized with other new Christian eisegesis.

-Spotty

Since Scripture speaks only of the second coming of Christ (and not a second coming followed by a third coming as is promoted by some rapture advocates, where Jesus doesn't actually "touch down" at the "secret second coming"), wouldn't it seem to follow that what Paul is speaking of in 2 Thess. is actually the second coming and there is no "third" coming?
 
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