The Mysterious Christian Trinity

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drmmjr

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TWells and webboffin,

The discussion has been interesting to read. Just thought some information on Elohim would be interesting.
In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") and panim (paneem, "face," "presence," "countenance") are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord," "master," is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30, 33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.

Equally striking is the fact that the same term elohim is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (I Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; I Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (I Kings 11:33); and Milcom, another god of the Ammonites (I Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary and the New International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.

Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalm 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as Elohim.

What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.
from:Elohim and Echad by Lindsey Killian
 
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This Trinity again :)
Twells & Oblio
Okay you believe that God,Jesus and the Holy spirit which make the three heads of one God.
Tell me what you know.
Lets do this bit by bit and get to the nitty gritty of understanding.
You say that Jesus is God in flesh. Okay, fine.

Can God be tempted by Satan?
Why did Satan try if God cannot?
What could Satan offer God the creator? (Satan's creator too)
 
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The trinity is in the Bible not called the trinity but its essence is throughout the Bible. Search for the verses where which say "let us" such as at the tower of babel. The Trinity is not a saved or lost issue wheter you believe or percieve it or not; & God works in thru three entities which are called "one" in the word which are the Father the Son & the Holy Spirit & as said they are ONE.
 
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Outspoken

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webboffin said:
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?

Christ was pretty clear in saying his disciples and the people that he taught couldn't understand the deeper stuff. It was only after the helper that they might have come close, and Paul as well as the other NT writers hit on this very heavily.
 
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webboffin

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But if the Trinity is a fundimental aspect of God then surely he would of let us understand. Most Trinitarian explainations is usually comes down to the Trinity as being mysterious; not understandable which goes against the theme of the Bible.
Many verses of scripture that could easily state Jesus not being God needs more complex translation to fit it to the Trinitarian belief - a bit like hammering a square block of wood through a round hole. Yet most church denominations teach the Trinity as fact, though it was only many years after Jesus's time on Earth when in the 4th Century the Trinity in Christianity became creed doctorine.
 
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webboffin

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webboffin said:
This Trinity again :)
Twells & Oblio
Okay you believe that God,Jesus and the Holy spirit which make the three heads of one God.
Tell me what you know.
Lets do this bit by bit and get to the nitty gritty of understanding.
You say that Jesus is God in flesh. Okay, fine.

Can God be tempted by Satan?
Why did Satan try if God cannot?
What could Satan offer God the creator? (Satan's creator too)
Any many of these points I made earlier still need sufficient answers that would tie in with a plausable trinity explaination.
I have had no takers yet.

It is few of examples that show Jesus being a "component" of God a little illogical or at best contradictory.

Jesus as God's creation is far more logical and fits best to biblical scripture.
 
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Outspoken

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webboffin said:
But if the Trinity is a fundimental aspect of God then surely he would of let us understand. Most Trinitarian explainations is usually comes down to the Trinity as being mysterious; not understandable which goes against the theme of the Bible.
Many verses of scripture that could easily state Jesus not being God needs more complex translation to fit it to the Trinitarian belief - a bit like hammering a square block of wood through a round hole. Yet most church denominations teach the Trinity as fact, though it was only many years after Jesus's time on Earth when in the 4th Century the Trinity in Christianity became creed doctorine.

"But if the Trinity is a fundimental aspect of God then surely he would of let us understand."

This is a false conclusion. I don't understand how life really starts..why a human is different then other animals, nor can I grasp or understand God himself. Read job.

If you want to look at verses you think that say, "Jesus is not God" we can. I think you need to read Col. 2:8-9 though as it puts it pretty plainly that Christ is God.
 
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TWells

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But if the Trinity is a fundimental aspect of God then surely he would of let us understand.
I understand the Trinity just fine and scripture is quite clear on it. The problem is the rather superficial Christianity we have today, especially in America. We've dropped Dicipleship for 4 step "get saved" programs and Christians are completely ignorant. God chose to reveal Himself in a time and culture other than our own and we should take the time to understand that to fully benefit from His written Word. The fact that the Bible is a product of a Ancient Near Eastern culture and not a modern Western one cannot be stressed enough.
Most Trinitarian explainations is usually comes down to the Trinity as being mysterious; not understandable which goes against the theme of the Bible.
This is quite simply not true. I dont know who you are reading but the Trinity is very understandable and there is a countless amount of good literature on the subject. Non Trinitarians dont have a problem not being able to explain the ontological nature of God but they for some reason they hold that standard to Trinitarians.
Many verses of scripture that could easily state Jesus not being God needs more complex translation to fit it to the Trinitarian belief - a bit like hammering a square block of wood through a round hole.
I would disagree with that as well, the only verses that I could see causing confusion would be those referring to Jesus as 'firstborn', but after we take the time to understand the built-in Wisdom template that 2nd Temple Jews had that refers to Wisdom (God) as the first 'born' of creation it makes complete sense.

In my experience its the Arians that twist scripture to fit their perspective even to the point of twisting the translation as is the case with John 1:1.
Yet most church denominations teach the Trinity as fact, though it was only many years after Jesus's time on Earth when in the 4th Century the Trinity in Christianity became creed doctorine.
*sigh* Here we go with Creeds again. This continues to be the most pointless and logically bankrupt argument ever. Let me ask you this: no early Church creed stated specifically that Jesus was the "messiah", so using your logic I would have to deduce that the idea of Jesus being the Jewish "messiah" is that something that came along hundreds of years later? Is this something you agree with?
Any many of these points I made earlier still need sufficient answers that would tie in with a plausable trinity explination.I have had no takers yet.
Ive accepted it but I just havent had time. I have a lot to say on the matter and its not something I can look up or do at work plus I have two jobs and a 8 month old daughter. I will try to get to it within the next few days. Until then you can simply work with the posts I made about Wisdom earlier in the thread. You never have responded to those other than it sounds kind of complicated.
It is few of examples that show Jesus being a "component" of God a little illogical or at best contradictory. Jesus as God's creation is far more logical and fits best to biblical scripture.
Most of what you've argued is mostly proof texting that completely ignores the big picture. Saying that God cant be tempted with the fact that Satan tried to tempt Christ isnt good enough.

In Christ,

Travis
 
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webboffin

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Outspoken said:
"But if the Trinity is a fundimental aspect of God then surely he would of let us understand."

This is a false conclusion. I don't understand how life really starts..why a human is different then other animals, nor can I grasp or understand God himself. Read job.

If you want to look at verses you think that say, "Jesus is not God" we can. I think you need to read Col. 2:8-9 though as it puts it pretty plainly that Christ is God.

The Bible explains why a human is different to an animal and is understandable.
The Bible's theme is for understanding God. It is not just a rule book of what to do and what not to do.


Col 2:8 See to it that no one enslaves you through philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.


Where would you see human traditions practiced in places of worship?
Pick out many major christian sects.
The celebration of Christmas based originally on pagan events repackage in the name of Christ to convert pagans to the new Roman State religion. The Pagan event for fertility rituals became Easter repackaged to celebrate Christ's Death and resurrection. (notice how eggs and bunnies still symbolise Easter)
May seem unimportant after all we are doing the celebrations in the name of Christ not pagan ideologies. But reading in Exodus makes it makes it clear.

Exo 32:3 So all the people took off their gold earrings and brought them to Aaron.
Exo 32:4 He took the earrings, melted them, poured the gold into a mold, and made a gold bull-calf. The people said, "Israel, this is our god, who led us out of Egypt!"
Exo 32:5 Then Aaron built an altar in front of the gold bull-calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to honor the LORD."
Exo 32:7 The LORD said to Moses, "Hurry and go back down, because your people, whom you led out of Egypt, have sinned and rejected me.


God was not pleased. Worshipping the name of God with an idol of a false god was a terrible sin to commit.
Celebrating Jesus Christ on the days that were the purpose to worship pagan gods would be equally the same.
Yet every major church celebrates Christmas and Easter.
It is the traditions of man that created these Christian events.
Christ only required we celebrate the Lord's supper in his name.

Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.
Yes, Jesus had God's full authority and was born human.
But most scripture looks away from Jesus as God and Jesus made no claims he was God. Until the 4th century when again the same like Christmas and Easter the Christian Trinity was formed to aid in converting pagans who worshipped trinitarian and tri-gods to Christianity.

 
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