DaTsar said:
I do not know If you realized this or not, I hope you did not but you didn?t respond to most of my arguments that were still on the topic at hand.
I did not answer your many quoted scriptures because they were out- of-context. Any time anyone takes several individual verses from different books, different audiences, chances are they are out-of-context. You asked a question, "
Does Paul discredit the law's role in salvation." then you posted 3 verses, Rom 3:31, 2:13, and 1 Cor 7:99, and none of them say anyhting about salvation. And they are further out of context because you have ignored the several passages which have been posted here. And then you contradict yourself at the end of this post. So which is it does law play a part in salvation or not. You have said both.
I am not saying: salvation by acts or by how close you live to the law I am saying: The laws strengthen faith they together are the key becaue one can not live without the other!
And OBTW there are none of your posts at this link.
http://www.christianforums.com/show...69&postcount=73
Btw Yom Kippur is not one I was referring; only the ones the lord calls his! I wish you know or could see that half are still unfufillled
Irrelevant, name any one of the holy days and I will show you how Christ fulfilled it as He said.
I call all interpretation that translates to practice the traditions of man? I found my church after I adopted all these principles, not the other way around sorry for making that not clear! Nor do I see how it would matter!
How it matters is by you arbitrarily judging anything and everything as "
traditions of men," without ever having seen it. Unless you are very knowledgable in Hebrew and Greek, you are probably doing something according to such traditions based on faulty understanding of outdated translations by men.
That is to prove the point that God all along has said it is something of the heart and he will circumcise the heart, showing that Paul did not come to that conclusion in some shocking revelation about the law being abolished, instead he merely pointing out and stressing the importance to the Judizers that this was process of the heart and there is no need for someone to be physically circumcise in order to get salvation, or for that matter a relationship with God. This has always been Gods plan and both Moses and Paul (more so) show how this was a reflection of an act done by God on the heart. I do not see how this contradicts the law? Please elaborate if that is your point.
Talking in circles. You posted a scripture trying to prove that Moses said circumscison was not required. The verse said no such thing. Circumcision is most certainly required for ALL Jewish males 8 days old and older.
I am not trying to make Christian like Jews, Only show them that the law is not some "yoke of bandage" God has never change the Plan, only corrected us when we go astray.
Then read the scriptures which have been posted and explain them. Here are some that have been posted before with discussion, more to follow. And just throwing "
proof texts,"at the board, as you have done does not answer my posts nor counter anything in the verses. I, for example have clearly explained, from scripture, why the church has taught for many centuries that the Sabbath was not given to gentiles, only to Israel.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [Note, see Gal 5:1, “yoke of bondage.”]
Acts 15:1, 5 records the fact that “
certain men”, “
Pharisees” from Judaea and Jerusalem commanded that Gentile Christians must be circumcised
and keep the law of Moses. Peter said, “
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” What is the yoke of bondage Peter is talking about? The
only thing that has been mentioned is circumcision and keeping the law of Moses. See Galatians 5:1, where Paul refers to a “
yoke of bondage.” Also, see verse 24, “
We gave no such commandment.”
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
In these verses the church council, which included Peter, James, and Paul, pronounces only four requirements for Gentile Christian, “
abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” These requirements are repeated twice more in Acts, verse, 29 and 21:25.
Does verse 21 mean that Gentile Christians will attend the synagogues and learn the law, after being told by the council, Peter, James, and Paul, they must observe
only four laws, twice? This does not make any sense, these four laws are part of the Torah, if gentile Christians are going to attend synagogues and learn all the laws, why must they be taught these four separately?
Further proof that gentile Christians did not attend synagogues are Jesus’ words in John 16:2.
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Peter clearly states that the council and apostles did NOT give gentile Christians a command to, “
be circumcised and keep the law.”
15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Here the four requirements, in verse 20, are repeated by the council, including Peter, James, and Paul, “
No greater burden than these necessary things.” Gentile Christians are never told to attend synagogue and learn the complete Mosaic law.
Act 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The church leaders were concerned that Paul was teaching Jews, NOT gentiles, to forsake Moses and abandon the law. Gentiles could not forsake Moses and the law because they had never been taught the law.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Here in these verses the four requirements in 15:20 and 29 are repeated for the third time. Note Paul was asked to take a Nazarite vow, he agreed to do so. The Jewish leaders said that Paul walked orderly and kept the law, but of the gentiles, “
we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing.” The ONLY “
such thing” which has been mentioned is keeping the law.
Why did Paul take a Nazarite vow and make offerings in the temple, when he said that Christians did not have to do those things? Because he observed the customs of the Jews when he was with Jews to avoid offending them and so that he might win some to Christ, 1 Cor 9:20. Further evidence that gentile Christians did not keep the law. When Peter came to Antioch, Paul criticized him openly in front of the apostles because when he was with gentiles he lived as the gentiles did, and not as the Jews did. But when Jews came, Peter separated himself from the gentiles and even insisted that gentiles live as the Jews did. If it was common practice for gentiles to live as the Jews, Paul would not have asked Peter why he was insisting that they do so.
1 Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews,why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
