Is baptism necessary to be saved?

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 26, 2003

aggie03 said:
Currently I have no fear, for perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18). However, if I can be shown that what I believe is incorrect according to the word of God, then I would fear, repent, and turn to be in harmony with the word of God.

The verses in the Bible cannot contradict. If they contradict then the Bible cannot be the word of God. Instead they have to be harmonized with one another. This is the rub, the task.

HOW BOUT THE CORRECT ORDER

INSTEAD OF ADDING WHAT IS NOT THERE

Correct, and you have to add that to other verses that are present in the Scriptures as well in order that we might have the SUM of God's word. The sum of God's word is Truth (Psalm 119:160).

So calling on the name of the Lord, or confessing Christ as Lord, is another condition which must be met in order for our salvation. I am not disagreeing with you. But consider you logic on this verse. It says nothing about faith. It says nothing about repentance. Both of these are necessary however, and we learn that from other passages . We have to consider everything that has been written.

Same things as we were talking about above. I also would like to suggest that inherent in belief is obedience. Can one truly believe and not be obedient? No. Can one love God and not do the things that God has commanded? No. The Bible tells us this:

you do not believe in Once saved always saved do you

John 3:36 ASV

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why are obedience and belief contrasted here? Because they mean the same thing. They are inseperable, and both are necessary.

Yes, I do . They were baptized for the remission of their sins in order that they might be obedient to the conditions that God has placed on our salvation. I don't believe that they were saved until they were baptized, because as John 3:36 shows us its necessity, they had not yet been obedient.

Again, why wasn't faith mentioned? Why wasn't repentance mentioned? Because we have to consider everything. These verses are not contradictory, but complimentary. They are added to one another so that we might understand all of the conditions that we must meet in order to be saved.

I'm not ignoring them at all , but I'm harmonizing them. If the Bible contradicts itself then it cannot be perfect. If it's not perfect then it's not the word of God. The verses that you have provided are harmonized perfectly with the gospel plan of salvation that God has given us: hear (Romans 10:17), believe (John 3:36), repent (Luke 13:3,5), confess (Romans 10:9,10) and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16). All of these passages fit together and are in harmony with one another. It's really not scary at all .

We have a wonderful, merciful God because salvation is even offered to us. I believe that God would be rather just is condemning us for ignoring things that He has commanded us. There is no gray area with God, we are either in the light or in the dark. Those are the only two options.

The passages that you quoted excluded faith and repentance, but you believe those are necessary, too, don't you?

Christ addresses this exact issue that you are discussing right now in a rather direct manner:

Matthew 7:21-23 ASV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are people that will confess, hence the crying of "Lord, Lord", and not be saved. The only way that we can be saved is if we do the will of God. Baptism is part of this will as has been outlined previously.

Notice they did might works of God BUT HE KNEW THEM NOT

MAYBE ROMANS 4:5 is what they did not believe for salvation ????

A just, righteous God. He has told us what we must do, if we don't do it then there are consequences. I would warn you before passing judgment on God, that's not a very wise thing to try and do. God has told everything we need to know in the sum of His word, all that we have to do is submit to Him and do it.

JUST LIKE THE ISRAELITES SAID IN eXODUS 19:8 RIGHT BEFORE gOD GOT UPSET AND CURSED THE JEWS WITH THE LAW..... 1 TIM 1:9-10, rOMANS 3:19-20

jesusfreak54 · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
thank you for your opinion Jesus Freak, however, i suggest you read the other numerious post that have been made and the counters as well.

What you said was mentioned on the first page... we are on page 26 now. As you can see, it's not that cut and ry and there are MANY things to consider.

ok but I read like almost every single post. I know you all discussed this already I was just giving my view point from the question of the whole topic.

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
thank you for your opinion Jesus Freak, however, i suggest you read the other numerious post that have been made and the counters as well.

What you said was mentioned on the first page... we are on page 26 now. As you can see, it's not that cut and ry and there are MANY things to consider.

Actually, I do believe that it is that simple

. There are two verses that say directly baptism is necessary for our salvation, and many others where it is included as an integral part. Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21. When you consider the sum of what God's word teaches on the subject you come up with something very similar to what Jesusfreak54 outlined.

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
The simple fact is this...

Earlier it's not simple, now it is

j/k with you Archangel, gotta have a little fun every once in a while

Every baptism scripture can be read differently very easily.

This is only true if you dissect the issue and consider one verse at a time without referrencing any of the others. When you consider them as a sum, they are very coherent in what they teach. I used to believe the same things that you appear to Archangel. It took me about three months of studying this topic to finally get the picture that it's not verses we need to focus on, but the sum of those verses. Psalm 119:160 establishes a universal truth about the word of God. It is the SUM of God's word that is Truth.

They will lead you to assume that you need to be baptized to be saved.

Did you ever think that this might be because the Bible teaches this

Infact the only verse that directly says you need to be baptized to be saved is 1 Peter 3:21, and the context of it is very touchy, but very explainable in a context in which the people he was talking to were already saved.

There are more verses than just 1 Peter. Matk 16:16 is another one for example. Also, I'm not disputing with you that the people who Peter was writing to were already Christians, I believe that they were. Peter wasn't writing to them because they needed to be baptized, he was writing to them reminding them that they had salvation because they were baptized, and the because they were baptized they are able to have a clear conscience before God.

Yet despite these vaque and easlily re worded scriptures about baptisms' there are many DIRECT verses that say nothing about baptism is necessary for baptism.

There are also many direct verses that say nothing about repentance and faith, too. I'm positive that you don't want to get rid of those, though

.

John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, 17 and others.

John 3:16 says nothing about confessing, nothing about repentance.
Romans 10:9-10 says nothing about faith or repentance.
Romans 10:17 says nothing about repentance or confessing.

We have to consider the sum of God's word.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 26, 2003

aggie03 no response?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

AGGIE YET IT SAYS: YOU WILL BE SAVED.

End of story, at least on my side.

heb12-2 · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
AGGIE YET IT SAYS: YOU WILL BE SAVED.

End of story, at least on my side.

I wonder Arch, you couldn't be guilty of showing too much zeal there now could you.

Are you trying to "weild your sword"?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

one verse...? That is zeal?

Then I state that I am done debating? sorry, that was anti zeal.

Why do I feel you are trying to catch me in the wrong??? Please don't, it ruins your reputation, especially when you say stupid things like you just told me about zeal.

Zeal is repetitive and truthful, but can be harsh and unloving if not careful.

I was just being blunt and stating an opinion and stating that I am now out of this debate. How dare you say that against me.

Try catching yourself in the right before you try to cathc me in the wrong.

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

I believe that was a joke archangel

. Heb 12-2 was just trying to have some fun

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 27, 2003

from what I have seen from heb, he hardly jokes, and if he is joking then he is poor at his topics to joke about... and timing at that. It's beena rough day for me, normally I would joke back.. sorry, been up tight the past few days, but more on the alert I guess.

heb12-2 · Aug 27, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
one verse...? That is zeal?

Then I state that I am done debating? sorry, that was anti zeal.

Why do I feel you are trying to catch me in the wrong??? Please don't, it ruins your reputation, especially when you say stupid things like you just told me about zeal.

Zeal is repetitive and truthful, but can be harsh and unloving if not careful.

I was just being blunt and stating an opinion and stating that I am now out of this debate. How dare you say that against me.

Try catching yourself in the right before you try to cathc me in the wrong.

Come on Arch. Don't be so angry.

It only took you 4 minutes to respond like that? You seem to be pretty zealous to say that you had no zeal.

So what if you did have some zeal? Would that be so bad? If you were to show zeal, I would not think unkind of you for it. And there would be no need to deny it, or apologize for it. Zeal is good. Say it with me, "Zeal is good."

And quoting scripture is not evil either. I actually liked seeing you quoting one. It wouldn't hurt for you to quote a little more.

I am not offended when you call what I say as "stupid", but I wonder, did all that love that you claim to have move you to say that? Were you not afraid that calling my statement "stupid" might "ruin your reputation"?

Why do you keep saying that I am "harsh and unloving"? I really don't understand you on that. All I have done is stated my case with scripture (you've stated yours with opinion). You said, "I was just being blunt". So why can't I be blunt? You're not being fair.

You keep touting at me that I am "harsh and unloving", but I don't think even you are living up to your standard that you are using against me.

Would you do me a favor? Wait until you are calmed down and not steaming at me, then read your post and see if it sounds "harsh and unloving" (according to the way you are using it against me).

You said, "Why do I feel you are trying to catch me in the wrong???"

Actually, that's exactly what I thought you were doing to me from your very first post. Go back and read all your posts to me. Every single one of your responses to me has been to cut me down, to make me appear "harsh and unloving", and discredit what I have said. I wonder, have you been "harsh and unloving" to do that?

I don't think you can take your own medicine.

heb12-2 · Aug 27, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
from what I have seen from heb, he hardly jokes, and if he is joking then he is poor at his topics to joke about... and timing at that. It's beena rough day for me, normally I would joke back.. sorry, been up tight the past few days, but more on the alert I guess.

I get the impression that you are reading my posts and imagining how I am talking to you. But I am afraid that you are imagining me yelling and growling. Honestly, I'm not. I'm just typing.

Imagine I am your close friend, and you actually like my company for a change. Now imagine how a close friend would discuss baptism with you. Now go back and read my posts in that light.

heb12-2 · Aug 27, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I see no glorification of God, and nothing being taught.

Was this intended against me? I wonder, was that "gentle"? saying that I wasn't glorifying God, and saying that I have taught "nothing"?

To be quite honest, all I see are swordsmen (and women) fighting for a lost cause, and in the ned, it will be a stalemate, but niether side will agree on who "won."

I wonder, is there "glorification of God" when you claim that all the scripture that has been discussed is for a "lost cause". And was it "harsh" of you to accuse me of just trying to "win"?

The only person that should win is God,

I agree wholeheartedly.

but if God is on both sides of the fields, you MUST ALL put down your weapons and discuss such things in manor edifying to God.

God is not on both sides of the field. You say to put down your weapons, but God says to "put on the whole armor" (Eph. 6:11), and "fight the good fight of faith" (1 Tim. 6:12).

Cleary that stating scripture is getting no where, but I am very happy to see that scripture.

Then you are failing to the see the gospel's "power", and "I am not ashamed of the gospel" (Rom. 1:16). Stating the scripture WILL get us some where if we'll only receive it (Ac. 2:41).

God opens the doors to those in whom He wants saved and taught. We are to NOT pry open the doors, and forcfully try to peirce peoples hearts, for then the word of God carries no Love nor righteousness and then is useless, evil, in the sight of God.

Two examples of people being "pricked in their heart" by preaching (one positive, one negative): The Jews at Pentecost who repented (Ac. 2:37), and the Jews who stoned Stephen (Ac. 7:54). In both cases, it was the powerful preaching of the word that "peirced peoples hearts", but one was moved to repent, and the other was moved to attack the messenger.

You can know the bible left and right, and in 5 languages, and still not know how to use it accuratly or even save one soul with that knowledge.

Was this statement intended at me? Was it "gentle"?

But away your pride, put away what you know, and for once second, put the other people first (like we should) and look at things from thier prospective.

Was it "harsh" to accuse me of having "pride"? Have you "put away what you know" and tried to look at things from the perspective of what we've presented with scripture?

Argue what you want, tear everything I said into shreds and post whatever you want about.

Have you tried to "tear everything I said into shreds" when you misjudged my motives, attacked me, accused me of just wanting to "win", accused me of "pride", accusing me of being "harsh and unloving" and ungentle, said that I have taught "nothing", and said I have not glorified God, when I was only presenting scripture?

I could trully care less what you all come up with, but at this rate, you all will get no where, and I know this from past experiance of debating on line.

First you're saying to put the other person first and look at it from their perspective, and now you're saying you "could trully care less what you all come up with". Which is it? Again, you're not following your own advice. Why don't you care? I thought you were "loving", and now you don't even care? Why don't you take your own medicine, and put the other person first, and look at it from the perspective we present from the scripture.

Gentle Panther · Aug 27, 2003

aggie03 said:
It's not a statement made in fear, it's a statement made in understanding. The Holiness and Justice of God demand that there can be only one way that is pleasing to Him - and that is the way that He has outlined for us in the Bible. If we aren't following that, then we are not pleasing to Him.

Yes, but if two people in their separate homes sit and read the bible for the first time, and one sees baptism as important, and another sees it as not important, who is right? If both sincerely wanted to become a Christian, and for whatever reason, did not have access to a church, and they both reached different opinions on being saved, how can one be bound for hell and the other heaven?

If I were to come to realize that I was wrong I would have to repent for adding to the gospel and trying to teach others a false doctrine - that's a pretty serious offense - it makes one anathema to God (Galatians 1:8)

I am so sorry that you view things in such a legalistic manner. I can remember believing like you do and it can be very destructive in time.

They have to be considered in light of one another. Every time we come across a verse that mentions something as being necessary for salvation, that means that it has been laid out as a condition for our salvation. From those two verses we can understand that it is necessary to confess Christ as Lord, to repent, and to be baptized for the remission of our sins.

You are creating a formula for salvation. I used to belong to the 1st United Pentecostal church. They taught a formula for salvation too. They can back it up too by piecing together certain passages. Based on Acts 2:38, they believe you must 1. Repent 2. Be baptized in Jesus name (Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are considered titles for Jesus and not legitimate, you are going to hell in their eyes if you have this baptism) 3. Receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. This is followed by living a very strict holy life.....and I mean strict. You are not considered saved until all these conditions are met.

The act in and of itself has no power. The fact that we do it Biblically with the Bible reason is whats important. We are saved only through the grace of God, which He imparts to us when we have met all the conditions for our salvation. This cannot be done without baptism, which is the last step of the conditions the Bible lays out.

Why must grace have strings attached? Being baptized is great if you desire to do it, but if you don't desire, grace still holds you up. Jesus did not suffer and die for us to be saved through a formula. He died to set us free by grace. He obtained what we could not. We cannot earn our salvation through following formulas. Salvation comes the moment a person believes. Otherwise, how do we deal with those who came to God and intended to get baptized, but were killed in a car accident before they could do it?

I actually feel like we are making at least a little progress in explaining how we feel about certain things to each other. It helps when we discuss the passages that have been addressed like this rather than just throwing out verses at each other. Thank you for discussing this with me. I hope to hear from you again soon!

Thank you for being so kind. I am not really into debates anymore. I got burned out on it a few years ago. I am just concerned for you. I hate to see someone caught up in so much legalistic thinking. I used to live there, and it stung me really bad in the end.

aggie03 · Aug 27, 2003

Gentle Panther said:
Yes, but if two people in their separate homes sit and read the bible for the first time, and one sees baptism as important, and another sees it as not important, who is right? If both sincerely wanted to become a Christian, and for whatever reason, did not have access to a church, and they both reached different opinions on being saved, how can one be bound for hell and the other heaven?

I do not believe that a church is a building, but is a local group of saints (Christians) who come together to worship the Lord. There is also the Church (big 'C') which includes all of the saints throughout the world.

In this country, the scenario that you have created is highly unlikely, but in answering your questions, I will turn to the Bible and offer what it says about this.

Romans 1:16 ASV

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel of God is the power unto our salvation. The gospel is capable of piercing our hearts (Acts 2:37) and turning us to God. Is through the gospel that we might have faith (Romans 10:17). The gospel is the seed that Christ mentions in the parable of the sower that is capable of being planted in the hearts of men :

Matthew 13:18-23 ASV

Hear then ye the parable of the sower. (19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side. (20) And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; (21) yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth. (22) And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. (23) And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Christ mentions both of the situations that you have laid out for us:

The first person who read the word of God and understood it is likened unto the good ground. As the wise man who has built his house upon the rock (Matthew7:24), reading and understanding is not the end, but he must do what the word teaches.The second person who read the word of God and understood it not is liekend unto the soil that has the seed snatched away by the evil one.

I am so sorry that you view things in such a legalistic manner. I can remember believing like you do and it can be very destructive in time.

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If by legalistic you mean that I read the word of God and do what it says, then I will take that as a compliment !

You are creating a formula for salvation.

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I'm not creating anything. I'm merely going through the Bible and letting it speak where it speaks, and be silent where it is silent. I teach nothing that the gospel doesn't teach, and I take nothing away from the gospel - for the gospel is the power of God unto our salvation.

I used to belong to the 1st United Pentecostal church. They taught a formula for salvation too. They can back it up too by piecing together certain passages. Based on Acts 2:38, they believe you must 1. Repent 2. Be baptized in Jesus name (Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are considered titles for Jesus and not legitimate, you are going to hell in their eyes if you have this baptism) 3. Receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. This is followed by living a very strict holy life.....and I mean strict. You are not considered saved until all these conditions are met.

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Well, I don't believe that they've considered the sum of God's word in what they are teaching - Mattew 28:29 clealy is a command given by God to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has only occurred twice in the New Testament - once to show salvation was unto the Jews, a second time to show salvation was unto the Gentiles. After this, it was no longer needed. I also don't believe that there are any longer spiritual gifts today, 1 Corinthians 12-13 outlines that very clearly.

Why must grace have strings attached? Being baptized is great if you desire to do it, but if you don't desire, grace still holds you up.

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Your response reminds me of Naaman and his attitude toward what God said must be done:

2 Kings 5:10-11 ASV

And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. (11) But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of Jehovah his God, and wave his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

Naaman had his own ideas about what should be done in order to cure his leprosy - and at first he was angry (wroth) that God didn't do things the way that he wanted them done. Naaman didn't want any conditions, either. He just wanted Elisha to wave his hands around and make him clean. This wasn't God's plan though. If you keep reading on in the chapter, Naaman realizes the error of his ways, does what God has said and is finally made clean - only after he met God's conditions.

There are no strings attached to the grace of God, but in order to even receive God's grace, we have to do what He says.

Jesus did not suffer and die for us to be saved through a formula. He died to set us free by grace. He obtained what we could not. We cannot earn our salvation through following formulas. Salvation comes the moment a person believes.

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By the definintion of the word formula, you have just created one as well .

Otherwise, how do we deal with those who came to God and intended to get baptized, but were killed in a car accident before they could do it?

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How do I deal with the person who believed, was baptized, but wouldn't repent? How do I deal with the person who was baptized and didn't believe? How do I deal with the person who repented, believed, was baptized, but would not confess Christ as Lord?

The answer these questions is that I don't have to. God will judge the living and the dead, not me. All I can do is show what the word of God says that we have to do in order that we might be saved .

Thank you for being so kind.

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Your welcome

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 27, 2003

"And quoting scripture is not evil either. I actually liked seeing you quoting one. It wouldn't hurt for you to quote a little more."

Satan quotes scripture all the time, it depends on how you do it. Sorry, but now I just see you sucking up to me...

"Imagine I am your close friend, and you actually like my company for a change. Now imagine how a close friend would discuss baptism with you. Now go back and read my posts in that light."

So you are asking me to be emotional now? ha sorry, I am emotionless, and don't have that many friends, it takes a lot more than a person weighing their beleifes on me, especially where they are not welcomed in the first place. I don't blindly trust people. I love them in a Godly fashion, but as far being close to people, my discipler is the only one who knows me.

Simple thing is, you think I am not saved due to the fact I beleive different than you. I hope I am wrong. That thinking alone angers me deeply.

"Stating the scripture WILL get us some where if we'll only receive it (Ac. 2:41)."

Thats my point, I have recieved yours and found it to be lacking from what I have personally experianced.

"God is not on both sides of the field. You say to put down your weapons, but God says to "put on the whole armor" (Eph. 6:11), and "fight the good fight of faith" (1 Tim. 6:12)."

The point that I was making is that we both think God is defending us both on this issue, but one of is right.

Sorry but eph 6 is in context of a spiritual battle against satan and his minion, not against each other. Do you really think that fighting amongst back and forth with each other is a good fight of faith??????? I truly hope not.

"Two examples of people being "pricked in their heart" by preaching (one positive, one negative): The Jews at Pentecost who repented (Ac. 2:37), and the Jews who stoned Stephen (Ac. 7:54). In both cases, it was the powerful preaching of the word that "peirced peoples hearts", but one was moved to repent, and the other was moved to attack the messenger."

My heart has already been pricked, thank you.

"Was this statement intended at me? Was it "gentle"?"

If it was to you, I would make sure you knew. Well you are being "harsher" so I thought I might play like for a little bit, now you are questioning it?

"Was it "harsh" to accuse me of having "pride"? Have you "put away what you know" and tried to look at things from the perspective of what we've presented with scripture?"

Once again, was I refering to just you? No. However, if you think everything is about you, it shows that you do have some pride, and that you may have a guilty conscience. Once again, I hope I am wrong.

Like I have said 3 days ago, I look at everything from both sides of an issue, and I even live if needed. I accepted Christ into my heart 4 years ago, and waited till 6 months ago to be baptised. Nothing has changed, at least not since I was "Originally saved"
Tell me, heb, were you baptized shortly after your confession and repentence of sin and asking God into your heart? If so, I can see how it can be difficult for you to make a sound judge ment as whether baptism makes a difference or not. I can.

"Have you tried to "tear everything I said into shreds" when you misjudged my motives, attacked me, accused me of just wanting to "win", accused me of "pride", accusing me of being "harsh and unloving" and ungentle, said that I have taught "nothing", and said I have not glorified God, when I was only presenting scripture?"

Nothing less then what you were doing, only I was posting love and some scripture, along with a testemony.
Needless to say, what does it matter??? Does love not keep a record of wrongs???? Wheres the love man?

"First you're saying to put the other person first and look at it from their perspective, and now you're saying you "could trully care less what you all come up with". Which is it? Again, you're not following your own advice."

I have been caring about other peopels post up until that point- thats when I saw there was no help for it and I would only add to this decieving destruction.

"Why don't you care? I thought you were "loving", and now you don't even care?"

I care about what the people feel, however, I really do not care abut this mess that it has become due to the fact I have given warnings about it, and yet everyone continues. You are correct, I do not care for we should not even think of evil, hear no evil, see no evil.

"Why don't you take your own medicine, and put the other person first, and look at it from the perspective we present from the scripture."

This shows that you have not paid attention to my posts enough to even see that I have said that I already have looked into these scriptures presented (sorry, it just wasn't you that showed me them). All that you are telling me is no different from what I have been told the past two years.

What I beleive to be true in the Word of God runs hand in hand to what I have witnessed in my own life. I have witnessed it with my own two eyes, and I have many other eye witnesses seeing my spiritual growth as well, not to be prideful, just making a statement that might possibly give you some peace, so that I might get some peace in return.

Gentle Panther · Aug 28, 2003

aggie03 said:
If by legalistic you mean that I read the word of God and do what it says, then I will take that as a compliment !

But you "do what it says" according to your interpretation and opinion. You promote your interpretation as being the "only" one. There are millions of Christians all interpreting the bible in different ways than you. Are they all wrong?

Gentle Panther · Aug 28, 2003

I said " I used to belong to the 1st United Pentecostal church. They taught a formula for salvation too. They can back it up too by piecing together certain passages. Based on Acts 2:38, they believe you must 1. Repent 2. Be baptized in Jesus name (Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are considered titles for Jesus and not legitimate, you are going to hell in their eyes if you have this baptism) 3. Receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. This is followed by living a very strict holy life.....and I mean strict. You are not considered saved until all these conditions are met."

You said "Well, I don't believe that they've considered the sum of God's word in what they are teaching - Mattew 28:29 clealy is a command given by God to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has only occurred twice in the New Testament - once to show salvation was unto the Jews, a second time to show salvation was unto the Gentiles. After this, it was no longer needed. I also don't believe that there are any longer spiritual gifts today, 1 Corinthians 12-13 outlines that very clearly. "

That is just your opinion and interpretation again. There are milllions and millions of Christians who disagree with you and could make a good case of it.

Gentle Panther · Aug 28, 2003

I said "Jesus did not suffer and die for us to be saved through a formula. He died to set us free by grace. He obtained what we could not. We cannot earn our salvation through following formulas. Salvation comes the moment a person believes"

You said "By the definintion of the word formula, you have just created one as well ."

How do you get that idea? I say that salvation comes through ONE thing....BELIEVING!!!

A Formula means "An established form of words (plural) or symbols for use in a ceremony or procedure. ". A formula is like a recipe. A recipe has more than ONE ingredient.

You put many requirements on salvation. Yours is a recipe, a formula. Without all the requirements followed, it is is invalid to you. The recipe falls apart. The cake won't rise!

You pick and choose scriptures from all over the NT and pin them together to make your formula.

western kentucky · Aug 28, 2003

Gentle Panther,

You say "You pick and choose scriptures from all over the NT and pin them together to make your formula."

A better word for this would be "harmonizing." How else can you get the truth? Can you look at one passage, and throw out another.

For example:

You may open up your bible and turn to Rom. 4:5 or Eph. 2:8 and say, "Works are not necessary! We are saved by faith alone."

But what about the rest of the bible? What about John 12:42-43? The rulers had faith? It plainly tells us that they believed in verse 42. Was that enough? Did "faith alone" save them? Lets take a look at verse 43: "for they loved the approval of men more than the approval of God."

What about James 2:14-26:

vs 20: But are you willing to recognize, that faith without works is useless.

When we search to find the truth, we must harmonize. Rom 4:5 and James 2:20 do not contradict each other. After examaning the context and harmonizing Rom 4:5 and Eph. 2:8 with James 2 and John 12:42-43, it can be concluded that we are not saved by "faith alone." We are not saved by earning our salvation through works, we are saved by God's grace. Does this mean that we can just sit back and relax and let God do all the work?

Out of all the passages I have seen for the belief of "faith only," I have failed to find where it says "only." Can you help me out. The bible does speak a lot of faith and it's importance, but I never find "faith only." Faith saves us when it leads us to obey. Consider Heb. 11.

You say, "There are millions of Christians all interpreting the bible in different ways than you. Are they all wrong?"

Is that your guide? I do believe in an absolute truth, and anything that is contradictory to the word of God is wrong.

Rev. 22:18-19 says "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

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