Is baptism necessary to be saved?

heb12-2 · Aug 25, 2003

Gentle Panther said:
Our opposing opinions on a subject that is not clear are both valid...both right.

So are you saying that if you said 2+2=4 and I said it =5, then we're "both right"? Now if I'm teaching this equation to my daughter, and just because it is "not clear" to HER, that still doesn't change the answer, does it?

There may be things that are "not clear" to YOU, and to ME, but I still recognize that God had an intended purpose for what he said. And just because you or I might misunderstand him, doesn't change what said. Do you see my point?

At this point, I still sorting through a lot of my old beliefs and trying to figure out what I do and do not believe. I can't see salvation as being needed........but i am still looking.

I appreciate your honesty. My earnest desire and prayer is that you will find the truth. "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (Lk 11:9).

Wisdom says, "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver." (Pr 8:17-19).

It is unimportant to me at this time.

You said this concerning the book of Revelation. Again, I appreciate your honesty. May I give you a thought to consider from the book itself, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Re 22:14).

It means that I am still trying to figure things out. Christanity did nothing but cause me pain and abuse. The bible has always been used to beat. Serving God and church for over ten years was Hell for me.

I'm glad you're still trying. Don't give up. Was it really true Christianity that caused you pain and abuse? What kind of abuse?

Being a true follower will cause you some suffering. Jesus was honest enough to say it (Mt. 10:24-25). Jesus said you must count the cost (Luke 14:24-33).

Here are some words to consider:
"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (Mt 13:20-21).

Then consider this:
"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." (Mt 11:6).

You say that the Bible has been used to "beat". To be quite honest with you, the Bible does more than "beat" me. It "pierces" me like a "twoedged sword" (Heb. 4:12). So perhaps those who have been using it as a club to "beat" should repent and use it as a "sword". It's much more effective that way.

If God is really like that, he is very unfair.

Actually, that's why God IS fair. If he did not punish the wicked, then he would be unfair. It is his justice and fairness that declares that "the wicked shall not be unpunished" (Prov. 11:21).

If someone killed someone you love, would it be fair for the murderer to be set free?

"Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?" (Lam 3:39).

Those of us who truly recognize God's mercy and justice are moved to say this, "And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this" (Ezr 9:13).

I would think you were being funny or sarcastic, but I would not throw words like "ludicrous" or "absurd" at you. I would probably wait to see if you corrected it, or if you had intended a joke.

Sarcasm is not sinful (1 Kings 18:27). First let me say that I was NOT saying that YOU were "ludicrous" or "absurd", but the logic that you were using IS. Describing false doctrines as "ludicrous" and "absurd" is much kinder than calling them "damnable heresies" (2 Pet. 2:1).

If you had said 2+2=5, then you would have proven to me that you cannot add. However, I would be careful in my reply.........since there are some who truly cannot add and it would be cruel to poke fun at them or cut them down.

It has not been my intent to cut any PERSON down, but it has been my intent to cut down FALSE DOCTRINE.
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" (2 Co 10:3-5).

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 25, 2003

heb12-2 said:
"Hear ye my defence which I make now unto you." (Ac. 22:1)

"I have done no wrong, as thou very well knowest" (Ac. 25:10)

Simply presenting scripture does not make one unkind, or ungentle, or impatient. If presenting scripture makes one these things, then you need to rethink your definition of kindness, gentleness, and patience.

Jesus was the most kind, gentle, and patient man that ever walked this earth, but have we forgotten that his words were not always well received?

After a sharp rebuke of the Pharisees, Jesus' disciples came to him and said, "Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?" (Mt 15:12). How did Jesus answer? Did he say, "Well, I guess I should have been more politically correct." You can read it for yourself if you want to know his answer.

Don't confuse boldness as being ungentle (2 Cor. 10:1).

Paul "spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him." (Ac 9:29).

When the Jews were "disputing" with Stephen it says, "they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake." (Ac 6:10).

I don't believe that Stephen was being unkind, ungentle, or impatient, but his words sure bothered them bad enough to stone him.

[size=+2]Here's the truth of the matter. If one has the truth, then he can simply present it as his answer. But if one has no scripture for what he's practicing, he has to either repent, or attack the messenger.[/size]

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (Jn 3:20-21).

those verse I gave were for dealing with other believers for the most part

but and example of an unbeliever who will not change LOOK AT JESUS LOVE FOR THEM Matt 23:13-33

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 25, 2003

Gentle Panther said:
I am not at all insulted by your post. I spent many years studying scripture....especially the whole issue of baptism. For years, I was a member of the 1st United Pentecostal church that taught adamantly that baptism had to be performed in the name of Jesus...and not by saying "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." They believed that unless a person was baptized with the words "in Jesus name" spoken over them, they were going to Hell.

I ended up in non-denominational churches after that and discovered a whole new view on baptism. Still, there was much division amongst Christians on whether or not baptism was mandatory for salvation. Each side could use opposing scriptures to prove their point. I also ran a Christian forum with my husband which forced me into many debates...including baptism.

This sent me on a study of baptism. I could see where each side had a legitimate case. There is not enough clarity in scripture. Still, I concluded that baptism was not needed for salvation. I felt a person was saved the moment he gave his heart to God. I just could not believe God would send a person to Hell who had not been baptized...but loved God and served God.

Now I am a very liberal Christian.....Unitarian really. I still don't believe baptism matters, but now it's more based on bible contradictions.

I love you

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 25, 2003

Posted by Gentle panther:

"I thought so once. I spent much time studying the whole issue. I made my conclusions. Still, others had opposing conclusions. I could pull out my scriptures, and they could pull out theirs. In the end, it was all a matter of differing viewpoints and opinions."

I agree with this 100%, and that is why I am no longer going to be "debating" this issue. I see no glorification of God, and nothing being taught.

To be quite honest, all I see are swordsmen (and women) fighting for a lost cause, and in the ned, it will be a stalemate, but niether side will agree on who "won."
The only person that should win is God, but if God is on both sides of the fields, you MUST ALL put down your weapons and discuss such things in manor edifying to God.

Cleary that stating scripture is getting no where, but I am very happy to see that scripture.

God opens the doors to those in whom He wants saved and taught. We are to NOT pry open the doors, and forcfully try to peirce peoples hearts, for then the word of God carries no Love nor righteousness and then is useless, evil, in the sight of God.
You can know the bible left and right, and in 5 languages, and still not know how to use it accuratly or even save one soul with that knowledge.

But away your pride, put away what you know, and for once second, put the other people first (like we should) and look at things from thier prospective.

I was a nuetral on this matter for years, until I tried it myself. I was saved for 2 years... some spriitual growth it seemed, but I would of thought it would have been more, so I decided to get baptized, (and submerdged, let me add). I felt no change nor enlightened, nor did I feel a holy ghost. My past two years of accepting and believing in my heart and confessing with my mouth that Jesus Christ is lord made me spiritually feel God more than that baptizm. Thats when I decided that I was already saved.

Argue what you want, tear everything I said into shreds and post whatever you want about.
My tongue will not put any more flames to this fire, nor will I stand a defense anymore, cause you cannot stop a forest fire by adding more trees.

I could trully care less what you all come up with, but at this rate, you all will get no where, and I know this from past experiance of debating on line.

Good night ladies and gentlemen.

aggie03 · Aug 25, 2003

Archangel,

I don't believe that you understand the severity of what we are discussing here. God cannot be on both sides. Either the view that you are presenting is right or the other one is. There's not two, contrasting correct views. I say this because I realize the severity of my possibly being incorrect. What if I'm wrong and I've been adding things to the gospel of Christ?

Galatians 1:8 ASV

But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

Anathema means to be accursed by God. This is the severity of the matter. If you are correct and I am not, then I want to know because the last place I want to be is hell. If you are not correct than I want you to know because that's the last place that I want you to be. Seriously, I care for you, for everyone on these forums, for everyone in the world. We are all made in the image of God, and we should all do what is necessary that one day we might be with Him in heaven to give glory and honor to God for all time.

God is either for us or against us, those are the only two options, there is no halfway point, no rail to ride, no gray area - there is only light and dark. We are either of the light or of the dark. It is my prayer that all would come to the light.

The only way that we can do this is to study the word of God and learn the things that are contained therein. I am a new convert to Christ, being only one and a half years old. I crave the Truth, sound doctrine, the path of righteousness. I believe the things that I believe because these are what I believe the word of God teaches. I am willing to conform to what the word of God says, whether my current beliefs be proved true thereby or not. What God says and God wants is all that matters.

Perhaps the problem is that we have been tossing Scripture back and forth rather than discussing the passages that are presented in their entirety. N. B. Hardeman calls this a "school boy stunt wherewith nothing will be accomplished." I admit that I am also guilty of this at least in part, if not more. We can accomplish nothing if all we do is throw things back and forth at each other, we must study to show ourselves approved.

I pray that you would not leave the conversation, but as I do, that you would crave the word, seek the Truth of God's word, and continue to discuss it with us. For there is nothing greater, there is nothing truer, and only the Truth, the word of God, can set us free from our sins. Only being obedient to what the word teaches can bring us home to God, eternally so that we might praise Him forever.

I am not telling you that I will not present what I believe to be the Truth or that I won't defend it - make no mistake. But it is the Truth I am set to defend, not my beliefs. I have changed them once already because they did not conform to the word of God, and should you show me more perfectly the way of truth, I would change again. I am the pot, not the Potter. All that I would ask, is that you consider these statements, and be willing to do the same.

I pray that I will hear from you again

.

Gentle Panther · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I love you

Thank you!!!

Gentle Panther · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Posted by Gentle panther:

"I thought so once. I spent much time studying the whole issue. I made my conclusions. Still, others had opposing conclusions. I could pull out my scriptures, and they could pull out theirs. In the end, it was all a matter of differing viewpoints and opinions."

I agree with this 100%, and that is why I am no longer going to be "debating" this issue. I see no glorification of God, and nothing being taught.

To be quite honest, all I see are swordsmen (and women) fighting for a lost cause, and in the ned, it will be a stalemate, but niether side will agree on who "won."

I agree. I think I've had enough of quibbling over 2+2=4 or 5!! :sigh:

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

Orignally posted by aggie:
"I don't believe that you understand the severity of what we are discussing here. God cannot be on both sides. Either the view that you are presenting is right or the other one is. There's not two, contrasting correct views. I say this because I realize the severity of my possibly being incorrect. What if I'm wrong and I've been adding things to the gospel of Christ?"

"God cannot be on both sides, so it's as if we are fighting God and each other, and no one will win"

Thats why I asked for everyone to just stop and put down what they know to be true and think from the opposite side of view.

"If you are correct and I am not, then I want to know because the last place I want to be is hell"

Well thats just it, we can throw scriptures at each other all day for a year, and never "know" anything.
Secondly, this matter will not send you to hell.

"If you are not correct than I want you to know because that's the last place that I want you to be."

I can assure you, that I know without a shadow of a doubt, that I will be going to heaven. I know that I know that I know, that I will be in paradise. Not only that, but I am also 100% positive there is a heaven. Not many christians can say that.

"The only way that we can do this is to study the word of God and learn the things that are contained therein."
Look where it has brought us. It takes life experiance. Satan knows the bible in and out, and it didn't get him anywhere close to righteousness. Yes we need to know the word of God, but we need to know it applicably.

"Perhaps the problem is that we have been tossing Scripture back and forth rather than discussing the passages that are presented in their entirety"

I have been saying that for 3 days now, however, even that will more than likely get us no where.

"I pray that you would not leave the conversation, but as I do, that you would crave the word, seek the Truth of God's word, and continue to discuss it with us."

I do crave the word, along with prayer and petition as well. That is how I believe what I believe, and through life experiance. Without sincere of an attitude of who's right and who's wrong, we will get no where, that is why I am backing out. Gopd tells us to present the word of God lovingly (exceptions when you are an authoritative figure in your own church), and I am not seeing that happening here, and I will not add to it.

The simple thing is, baptisim was presented to the church's who already had the faith in God, and were already saved. Look in that context and you will see a whole new light.

Jesus Christ called the church to go out and "work" (save souls) but not to work unless baptized, which is exactly what Jesus Christ did.

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

Gentle Panther said:
I agree. I think I've had enough of quibbling over 2+2=4 or 5!!

Again, I fear that you cannot see the severity of the situation. This isn't the same as if we were in primary school all over again learning how to add. The gravity of this situation and this discussion is more so than I believe any of us can truly comprehend. We will either be forever in heaven or wallow for eternity in hell. There are no other options.

Either I am adding something to the gospel, or you are taking something from it. The discussion is not about whether or not one "has" to be baptized, but about one can be a child of God without baptism, whether one will go to heaven or hell without baptism. This is a discussion of the severest magnitude!

I believe that one must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). This means that I believe if you have been baptized for any other reason, then that baptism is invalid because its not the one that the Lord commanded. Baptism in water through immersion is for the remission of sins that is the belief that I hold on the subject. Therefore it stands that if you have not been baptized in water, through immersion, for the remission of your sins, then you do not have the remission of your sins, and therefore it is impossible to have a good conscience before God, to be cleansed of your sins, to be acceptable to God.

I do not believe that there has to be any sudden emotional or spiritual change after you are baptized. This is not the New Testament era there are no more miraculous gifts. This is not an emotional appeal, or an emotional step in our salvation, but one that must be understood, acknowledged and carried through with.

This is very serious, and I for one do not wish to die the second death. I care for everyone here and everyone who reads this. I dont want anyone to go to hell; I want all to come to the Father. I pray that you all feel the same way, and are concerned not only with your own salvation but with that of others as well, including me. For if I am wrong on the issue, I dont see how I could wind up in any other place but hell for teaching false doctrine and adding to the gospel.

Case in point I believe baptism for the remission of sins is necessary, you do not. One of us is right, the other is wrong. If you walk away from the conversation, you could be leaving someone willing to learn about the word of God to potentially continue on their way to an eternity without God. If you walk away from the conversation, you could potentially be heading for the same fate yourselves. This is a very serious discussion, I cannot stress that enough, and pray that you all feel the same way.

Let us be like the Beroeans, noble minded, searching the scriptures to see whether these things are so (Acts 17:11). For that is the only way. We have to love the Truth, search for the Truth, hunger for the Truth and obey the Truth. We must trust and obey, for there is no other way.

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Thats why I asked for everyone to just stop and put down what they know to be true and think from the opposite side of view.

I'll give you one better. I will, and I'm sure that all the others in the discussion will allow this too, not post affirmative statements for what I believe for a little while. I will give you the opportunity to share with me what you believe on the situation and why. I will ask you questions and discuss the Scripture that you present and try to harmonize it with the rest of the Bible. After some time, all I ask is that you give me the same opportunity.

Well thats just it, we can throw scriptures at each other all day for a year, and never "know" anything. Secondly, this matter will not send you to hell.

We can't just throw verses back and forth in that old "school boy stunt wherewith nothing will be accomplished." We must discuss things. And I do fully believe that if I am wrong, I will not be in heaven. That is the gravity of the situation. One cannot add to the gospel and expect to be acceptable to God. Conversely, one cannot subtract from it and expect to be either.

I can assure you, that I know without a shadow of a doubt, that I will be going to heaven. I know that I know that I know, that I will be in paradise.

Why do you believe this? - perhaps that's a good starting point for you to try and make

.

Not only that, but I am also 100% positive there is a heaven. Not many christians can say that.

I would say that anyone who is a Christian should be able to say that, or I would doubt whether or not they really believe. Heave is the goal, if we live our lives without our eyes focused on heaven, then we've missed the point.

Look where it has brought us. It takes life experiance. Satan knows the bible in and out, and it didn't get him anywhere close to righteousness. Yes we need to know the word of God, but we need to know it applicably.

I disagree with you here. I don't believe that it is necessary to have life experience in order to understand the Bible. We just have to understand how everything in the Bible is harmonized. Satan does know the Scriptures, but he twists and distorts their meaning. Satan does not harmonize the Scriptures, which is what we must do.

I have been saying that for 3 days now, however, even that will more than likely get us no where.

We will never know until we try, and heaven is more than worth the effort

.

I do crave the word, along with prayer and petition as well. That is how I believe what I believe, and through life experiance. Without sincere of an attitude of who's right and who's wrong, we will get no where, that is why I am backing out.

I here, I'm ready to discuss, I'm sincere. No need to back out any longer

.

God tells us to present the word of God lovingly (exceptions when you are an authoritative figure in your own church), and I am not seeing that happening here, and I will not add to it.

I believe that we should always present the word of God with love. If you reprove not with love, then you reprove with the wrong intentions or reason. If I am wrong I ask that you take the opportunity to do this. I also ask that you leave your mind open to the word of God and accept what it says, when harmonized, even if it means your current beliefs are wrong.

The simple thing is, baptisim was presented to the church's who already had the faith in God, and were already saved. Look in that context and you will see a whole new light.

I've tried looking at it from that perspective and I just can't see it. I need you to stay here and try to explain to me what you mean.

Jesus Christ called the church to go out and "work" (save souls) but not to work unless baptized, which is exactly what Jesus Christ did.

I would ask that this be one of the first points you present also in our discussion. If you can show me that baptism is not for the remission of our sins, Biblically, then I will change what I believe to fit the word of God, but you have to be willing to do the same

.

I pray that we can continue our discussion, and I pray to hear from you again.

Gentle Panther · Aug 26, 2003

aggie03 said:
Again, I fear that you cannot see the severity of the situation. This isn't the same as if we were in primary school all over again learning how to add. The gravity of this situation and this discussion is more so than I believe any of us can truly comprehend. We will either be forever in heaven or wallow for eternity in hell. There are no other options.

Either I am adding something to the gospel, or you are taking something from it. The discussion is not about whether or not one "has" to be baptized, but about one can be a child of God without baptism, whether one will go to heaven or hell without baptism. This is a discussion of the severest magnitude!

That's just your own opinion and your own fears talking. The bible would have made it very clear if baptism was important for salvation, but instead we have contradictory passages.

I believe that one must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Yes, but if you back up to Acts 2:21 you get Peter saying "'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' "

Plus, we have Acts 16:27-31 "When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!" And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"

The jailor and his household were baptized later...as I'm sure you know.

Also, Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

How come none of the above passages I have quoted mention baptism in relation to salvation?

Case in point I believe baptism for the remission of sins is necessary, you do not. One of us is right, the other is wrong.

No, you are choosing to pick your verses and are ignoring others. You cannot handle the fact that one scripture contradicts another. That one seems to promote baptism for salvation and others do not say baptism in needed for salvation. It's scary to face, I know.

Just think what a wonderful merciful God we have who would say "you are going to hell because you believed in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:9-10, and ignored the other scriptures that mentioned baptism" What sort of God puts passages in the bible that exclude baptism for salvation and say ""that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " and then says "even though those passages did not mention baptism, you were supposed to have that done too, it does not matter what's in your heart, whether you have loved and served me, you weren't baptized, you are going to hell"

What on earth sort of God is that?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

Will you marry me, gentle panther

Gentle Panther · Aug 26, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Will you marry me, gentle panther

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

Gentle Panther said:
That's just your own opinion and your own fears talking. The bible would have made it very clear if baptism was important for salvation, but instead we have contradictory passages.

Currently I have no fear, for perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18). However, if I can be shown that what I believe is incorrect according to the word of God, then I would fear, repent, and turn to be in harmony with the word of God.

The verses in the Bible cannot contradict. If they contradict then the Bible cannot be the word of God. Instead they have to be harmonized with one another. This is the rub, the task.

Yes, but if you back up to Acts 2:21 you get Peter saying "'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' "

Correct, and you have to add that to other verses that are present in the Scriptures as well in order that we might have the SUM of God's word. The sum of God's word is Truth (Psalm 119:160).

So calling on the name of the Lord, or confessing Christ as Lord, is another condition which must be met in order for our salvation. I am not disagreeing with you. But consider you logic on this verse. It says nothing about faith. It says nothing about repentance. Both of these are necessary however, and we learn that from other passages

. We have to consider everything that has been written.

Plus, we have Acts 16:27-31 "When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!" And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"

Same things as we were talking about above. I also would like to suggest that inherent in belief is obedience. Can one truly believe and not be obedient? No. Can one love God and not do the things that God has commanded? No. The Bible tells us this:

John 3:36 ASV

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why are obedience and belief contrasted here? Because they mean the same thing. They are inseperable, and both are necessary.

The jailor and his household were baptized later...as I'm sure you know.

Yes, I do

. They were baptized for the remission of their sins in order that they might be obedient to the conditions that God has placed on our salvation. I don't believe that they were saved until they were baptized, because as John 3:36 shows us its necessity, they had not yet been obedient.

Also, Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

How come none of the above passages I have quoted mention baptism in relation to salvation?

Again, why wasn't faith mentioned? Why wasn't repentance mentioned? Because we have to consider everything. These verses are not contradictory, but complimentary. They are added to one another so that we might understand all of the conditions that we must meet in order to be saved.

No, you are choosing to pick your verses and are ignoring others. You cannot handle the fact that one scripture contradicts another. That one seems to promote baptism for salvation and others do not say baptism in needed for salvation. It's scary to face, I know.

I'm not ignoring them at all

, but I'm harmonizing them. If the Bible contradicts itself then it cannot be perfect. If it's not perfect then it's not the word of God. The verses that you have provided are harmonized perfectly with the gospel plan of salvation that God has given us: hear (Romans 10:17), believe (John 3:36), repent (Luke 13:3,5), confess (Romans 10:9,10) and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16). All of these passages fit together and are in harmony with one another. It's really not scary at all

.

Just think what a wonderful merciful God we have who would say "you are going to hell because you believed in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:9-10, and ignored the other scriptures that mentioned baptism"

We have a wonderful, merciful God because salvation is even offered to us. I believe that God would be rather just is condemning us for ignoring things that He has commanded us. There is no gray area with God, we are either in the light or in the dark. Those are the only two options.

What sort of God puts passages in the bible that exclude baptism for salvation and say ""that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

The passages that you quoted excluded faith and repentance, but you believe those are necessary, too, don't you?

and then says "even though those passages did not mention baptism, you were supposed to have that done too, it does not matter what's in your heart, whether you have loved and served me, you weren't baptized, you are going to hell"

Christ addresses this exact issue that you are discussing right now in a rather direct manner:

Matthew 7:21-23 ASV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are people that will confess, hence the crying of "Lord, Lord", and not be saved. The only way that we can be saved is if we do the will of God. Baptism is part of this will as has been outlined previously.

What on earth sort of God is that?

A just, righteous God. He has told us what we must do, if we don't do it then there are consequences. I would warn you before passing judgment on God, that's not a very wise thing to try and do. God has told everything we need to know in the sum of His word, all that we have to do is submit to Him and do it.

Gentle Panther · Aug 26, 2003

aggie03 said:
Currently I have no fear, for perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18).

How do you think that passage plays out? I have discovered that the more you show love towards someone, the more fear is displaced in their lives.

You said "This is a discussion of the severest magnitude! "

That is a statement made out of fear. It has nothing to do with 1 John 4:18.

However, if I can be shown that what I believe is incorrect according to the word of God, then I would fear, repent, and turn to be in harmony with the word of God.

There you go with fear again! There is nothing to fear! If you come to see that baptism is not necessary to be saved, you do NOT need to tremble with fear and repent. You just say "Oh, praise God that I finally understand the truth about grace and salvation by grace alone". You rejoice in it!

The verses in the Bible cannot contradict. If they contradict then the Bible cannot be the word of God. Instead they have to be harmonized with one another. This is the rub, the task.

We've got Acts 2:21 Peter saying "'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' "

And Acts 2:38 peter also saying "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So, how do we harmonize these passages?

If you look at the Acts 2:38 passage it implies that baptism must be done in Jesus name. That contradicts Matthew 28:19 ' Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, "

So, here we have another dilemna. What words are supposed to spoken over one who is baptized is it "Jesus name" or "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".?

So calling on the name of the Lord, or confessing Christ as Lord, is another condition which must be met in order for our salvation. I am not disagreeing with you. But consider you logic on this verse. It says nothing about faith. It says nothing about repentance.

Hey, I did not write the verse. You'd have to ask the author why he omitted faith and repentance.

Same things as we were talking about above. I also would like to suggest that inherent in belief is obedience. Can one truly believe and not be obedient? No. Can one love God and not do the things that God has commanded? No. The Bible tells us this:
John 3:36 ASV

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why are obedience and belief contrasted here? Because they mean the same thing. They are inseperable, and both are necessary.

So, you don't really believe that baptism saves? You believe that "obeying" Jesus is what saves? Actually thew word "obeyeth" means to believe.

Yes, I do . They were baptized for the remission of their sins in order that they might be obedient to the conditions that God has placed on our salvation. I don't believe that they were saved until they were baptized, because as John 3:36 shows us its necessity, they had not yet been obedient.

Even though Paul and Silas tell him " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"??. Why didn't they say "Believe in the Lord Jesus and get baptised and you will be saved...."?

Again, why wasn't faith mentioned? Why wasn't repentance mentioned? Because we have to consider everything. These verses are not contradictory, but complimentary. They are added to one another so that we might understand all of the conditions that we must meet in order to be saved.

If repentance and faith are complementary to Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " Then why aren't they added into the verse or added right after it?

It should go something like this "in addition to confessing and believing, you need to have faith and to repent" and maybe they would make a little apology for not adding it into verse 9 or 10.

In order for something to complement, they need to be together or at least close.

I'm not ignoring them at all , but I'm harmonizing them. If the Bible contradicts itself then it cannot be perfect. If it's not perfect then it's not the word of God.

I find the bible to be imperfect. The contradictions abound. This is MHO.

The verses that you have provided are harmonized perfectly with the gospel plan of salvation that God has given us: hear (Romans 10:17), believe (John 3:36), repent (Luke 13:3,5), confess (Romans 10:9,10) and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16). All of these passages fit together and are in harmony with one another. It's really not scary at all .

It does not make enough sense to be scary. What's scary is that you are finding harmony where there is none. But that's ok....it's your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it.

We have a wonderful, merciful God because salvation is even offered to us. I believe that God would be rather just is condemning us for ignoring things that He has commanded us. There is no gray area with God, we are either in the light or in the dark. Those are the only two options.

Whose options? Yours?

The passages that you quoted excluded faith and repentance, but you believe those are necessary, too, don't you?

Nope.

Christ addresses this exact issue that you are discussing right now in a rather direct manner:
Matthew 7:21-23 ASV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There are people that will confess, hence the crying of "Lord, Lord", and not be saved. The only way that we can be saved is if we do the will of God. Baptism is part of this will as has been outlined previously.

That verse is referring to those who have never given their hearts to Jesus. They are those who relied on works and putting on great shows (sort of like Benny Hinn). It has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone got baptized.

A just, righteous God. He has told us what we must do, if we don't do it then there are consequences. I would warn you before passing judgment on God, that's not a very wise thing to try and do.

I am not afraid to ask questions of God or have doubts and wonder about if he is truly merciful. I have not passed any judgment. I have not reached any conclusions. I know He exists. I just don't understand how the bible could be so messed up that people get into endless debates...like this one........because there are way too many contradictory passages.

aggie03 · Aug 26, 2003

Gentle Panther said:
How do you think that passage plays out? I have discovered that the more you show love towards someone, the more fear is displaced in their lives.

You said "This is a discussion of the severest magnitude! "

That is a statement made out of fear. It has nothing to do with 1 John 4:18.

It's not a statement made in fear, it's a statement made in understanding. The Holiness and Justice of God demand that there can be only one way that is pleasing to Him - and that is the way that He has outlined for us in the Bible. If we aren't following that, then we are not pleasing to Him.

There you go with fear again! There is nothing to fear! If you come to see that baptism is not necessary to be saved, you do NOT need to tremble with fear and repent. You just say "Oh, praise God that I finally understand the truth about grace and salvation by grace alone". You rejoice in it!

If I were to come to realize that I was wrong I would have to repent for adding to the gospel and trying to teach others a false doctrine - that's a pretty serious offense - it makes one anathema to God (Galatians 1:8)

We've got Acts 2:21 Peter saying "'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' "

And Acts 2:38 peter also saying "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So, how do we harmonize these passages?

They have to be considered in light of one another. Every time we come across a verse that mentions something as being necessary for salvation, that means that it has been laid out as a condition for our salvation. From those two verses we can understand that it is necessary to confess Christ as Lord, to repent, and to be baptized for the remission of our sins.

If you look at the Acts 2:38 passage it implies that baptism must be done in Jesus name. That contradicts Matthew 28:19 ' Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, "

Again, you have to consider the sum of the passages. In the name of Jesus is inclusive in the verse that you have quoted from Matthew 28.

So, here we have another dilemna. What words are supposed to spoken over one who is baptized is it "Jesus name" or "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".?

Its not a dilemma at all

. I covered that just above this statement.

Hey, I did not write the verse. You'd have to ask the author why he omitted faith and repentance.

Theyre not present there because they are present elsewhere in the Scriptures. This is why the sum of the word is to be considered, not just a portion.

So, you don't really believe that baptism saves? You believe that "obeying" Jesus is what saves? Actually thew word "obeyeth" means to believe.

The act in and of itself has no power. The fact that we do it Biblically with the Bible reason is whats important. We are saved only through the grace of God, which He imparts to us when we have met all the conditions for our salvation. This cannot be done without baptism, which is the last step of the conditions the Bible lays out.

Even though Paul and Silas tell him "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"??. Why didn't they say "Believe in the Lord Jesus and get baptised and you will be saved...."?

Again, it wasnt necessary for that to be recorded specifically there because we have recorded in other passages. It is however noted that they were baptized. And if youll notice it doesnt say that they believed in God until the Jailor and his family were baptized.

If repentance and faith are complementary to [Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " Then why aren't they added into the verse or added right after it?

This is explained in Psalm 119:160 its the sum of Gods word that is Truth. We must consider everything that it says in light of everything else. Since both faith and repentance and baptism are mentioned as conditions, sometimes in separate places, sometimes together, the sum of the word shows that all are necessary.

It should go something like this "in addition to confessing and believing, you need to have faith and to repent" and maybe they would make a little apology for not adding it into verse 9 or 10.

I think God planned it out perfectly the way that it is.

I find the bible to be imperfect. The contradictions abound. This is MHO.

If this is true, then you can never know what is acceptable to God. Rather, I believe, this is a conclusion that people come to when they understand what is necessary to arrive at the truth that is contained therein. You have to harmonize all of the verses with one another and you must consider the sum.

It does not make enough sense to be scary. What's scary is that you are finding harmony where there is none. But that's ok....it's your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it.

There is harmony there.

Whose options? Yours?

I believe that its Gods opinion. There has always been a contrast between two things in the Bible, the light and the darkness. Theres never a mention of those in the gray area.

Nope.

Why dont you believe that faith is necessary to be saved?

That verse is referring to those who have never given their hearts to Jesus. They are those who relied on works and putting on great shows (sort of like Benny Hinn). It has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone got baptized.

It says that those who didnt do the will of God. Being baptized is part of the will of God, its a condition that He has laid out for our salvation. I very much believe that this is a verse that deals directly with those who have not been baptized for the remission of their sins

.

I am not afraid to ask questions of God or have doubts and wonder about if he is truly merciful. I have not passed any judgment. I have not reached any conclusions. I know He exists. I just don't understand how the bible could be so messed up that people get into endless debates...like this one........because there are way too many contradictory passages.

The problems only arise when we tend to focus on certain passages to the detriment of others at least this has been my personal experience, it might not always be the cause, but most of the time, thats the culprit

.

I dont think its wrong to question or to have questions, but if youre relying on yourself alone to come up with the conclusions, and not using the word of God to guide you, then I believe its impossible to come to the right conclusions

.

I actually feel like we are making at least a little progress in explaining how we feel about certain things to each other. It helps when we discuss the passages that have been addressed like this rather than just throwing out verses at each other. Thank you for discussing this with me. I hope to hear from you again soon!

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

The simple fact is this...

Every baptism scripture can be read differently very easily. They will lead you to assume that you need to be baptized to be saved. Infact the only verse that directly says you need to be baptized to be saved is 1 Peter 3:21, and the context of it is very touchy, but very explainable in a context in which the people he was talking to were already saved.

Yet despite these vaque and easlily re worded scriptures about baptisms' there are many DIRECT verses that say nothing about baptism is necessary for baptism.

John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, 17 and others.

Weigh it out.

jesusfreak54 · Aug 26, 2003

ok I believe that you DO have to be baptized to be saved the Bible states it many times. Oh, and baptism is NOT a work it's not like we are saving ourselevs when we go down into the water it's through our faith that we believe he is going to save us and when we come up out of the water we are a new creature.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

by the way aggie, what do you think "the remission of your sins" actually means?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 26, 2003

jesusfreak54 said:
ok I believe that you DO have to be baptized to be saved the Bible states it many times. Oh, and baptism is NOT a work it's not like we are saving ourselevs when we go down into the water it's through our faith that we believe he is going to save us and when we come up out of the water we are a new creature.

thank you for your opinion Jesus Freak, however, i suggest you read the other numerious post that have been made and the counters as well.

What you said was mentioned on the first page... we are on page 26 now. As you can see, it's not that cut and ry and there are MANY things to consider.

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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