Originally posted by sracer in Post #19:
...mixing verse of Church truth with Israel Truth
1 cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.
see 3 groups.... seperate to them selves...
While unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles are indeed separate from the church, note again that no scripture says that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive, for a believer can be a member of the church and a member of Israel at the same time:
Church member Paul: "I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1).
Church member Paul: "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).
Church member Paul: "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I" (2 Corinthians 11:22).
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Note again that nobody, Jew or Gentile, can ever come to the Father apart from faith in Jesus:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
"By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).
"Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
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And nobody, Jew or Gentile, can have faith in Jesus without being part of the church:
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
"For the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:20).
"To give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).
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Note again that only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved:
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9:27).
"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:8).
"They are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6).
"Because of unbelief they were broken off" (Romans 11:20).
"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39).
"Think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 3:9-10).
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Therefore, when Paul says "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), "all Israel" doesn't refer to all of physical Israel, but to all of the commonwealth and olive tree of Israel, which now includes all of the Gentiles and Jews who are saved (Romans 10:12-13), for Paul expressly says that Gentile believers are no longer strangers and foreigners in the commonwealth and olive tree of Israel, but are now fellow citizens and fellow branches with Jewish believers: "At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19); "Some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17), and this olive tree and commonwealth will also include the remnant of physical Israel who will be saved at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-13:6), for "they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in... and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:23-26).
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Originally posted by kiwichristian in Post #24:
...why would God put us through the most turbulent, horrible, and devastating years that the planet will ever face?...
I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).
During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.
I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).
I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).
I believe we in the church are the elect, and need to put on longsuffering: "Put on therefore, as the elect (eklektos) of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Colossians 3:12).
Note that at the 2nd coming some of us elect will still be "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) on the earth: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (eklektos) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).
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Originally posted by kiwichristian in Post #24:
...the coming wrath...
Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).
I believe it's important to make this distinction because I expect that many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming Jesus for causing all of their suffering and all of the suffering of their little ones in the tribulation, when in reality it will be Satan, fallen angels, evil men, and natural disasters that will be causing it. I expect that Satan is going to try to use this suffering to turn all of mankind -- including all of us Christians -- totally against Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants us and our little ones to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from Jesus, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.
In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive, "for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
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Originally posted by kiwichristian in Post #24:
...Revelation 3:10...
Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.
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Originally posted by sracer in Post #30:
...We're not supposed to know ...
I believe we are supposed to know, for Jesus laid it out plain and simple for us believers that we must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and that his coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8); "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23).
As long as we are ready for the rapture, what good is there in trying to figure out when the rapture will be? Lets just wait and see
