New Covenant ...is God's 10 Commandments...

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Der Alte

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Silver Surfer said:
So, what are you planing to do in the new earth where the Sabbath will be kept for all eternity ?
(Study Isaiah 66:22,23)

What does the scripture say you referenced and what does it have to do with anything? Want to know what is required of Christians?(Study the New Testament)
 
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KelsayDL

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Wound up? Why should I be wound up you only made three false accusations in your post, quoted below. If you have read the Bible many times as you claim perhaps you can explain how you interpret the passages which have been posted, Acts 15, Galatians, and Colossians. Post the pertinent verse and tell us what you think it means, don't just throw other scriptures at the board.

Don't just throw other verses on the board? You mean like you do? You simply ignore the text, write it off as "mere proof texts taken out of context" anytime anyone rebutts one of your posts.

There is no reason to, it is a waste of time. You are already bent out of shape, I really don't want to engage you further on the issue, but I will, in order to correct a few things I either failed to deliever in a means you could comprehend, or you are just feeling argumentive and "right".

Just asking questions? Is this a question? No it is an accusation, for which you have not posted any proof. "According to the theology of OS and likeminds it must have

Indeed. Just a simple question, which you have ignored, claiming you have answered it, does not make it so.

OS quotes a scripture from Paul stating that anyone returning to the law is fallen from grace.

I illustrated how the entire early church council at Jerusalem including James, were law abidding saints, that law was the law of God delivered through Moses. IF you chose to ignore that and read some esoteric meaning in to it, then you have done as you willed. But the text is clear, go back and re-examine it.

If more proof is needed that they kept the law of God given through Moses, simply read acts 10 concerning Peters vision.

Acts was written how long after the ascension of Jesus? And yet it clearly shows Peter observing the dietary laws instructed by God. He says no less than three times "Not so Lord, for I have NEVER EATEN ANYTHING COMMON OR UNCLEAN".

Did Peter fall from grace?

There is indisputable proof that long after the death of Jesus, the Jerusalem church kept the dietary laws, and if you read what the scripture says in acts 21, without trying to make it say what you want it to say, you will see clearly that the entire early church rooted in Jerusalem observed the law of God given through Moses. It's crystal clear.

Did the entire Jerusalem church fall from grace, James and all of the elders? For it is clear they are keeping the Torah.

Furthermore, citing OS and his "proof-text" that anyone returning to the law has fallen from grace.

Who could be returning to the law? As I already said, the gentiles were never given the law, they could not be returning to the law. Yet we see clearly the early church rooted in Jerusalem observed the law.

So, I must ask for a third time, did the early church fall from grace? Taking OS and his comments in the context he provided, they did.

So, all I ask is clarification. Preferably from him, as you seem a bit uptight concerning the issue.

What exactly do you mean by “law abiding” and where is your proof?

It's already been provided, ignore it if you will, but it still is there, clear as day.

More of Kelsay NOT labeling people. Anyone who disagrees with his Judaizing, he accuses them of teaching that people go to hell for following the teaching of God.

Indeed, I did not label him. I asked a question of him, who has yet to respond, unless of course you are him. There is a theology that if one returns to the law he is fallen from grace, OS tried to espouse it. I simple questioned him about it. For the early church observed the Torah. The proof has been provided. So as I said, the logical conclusion of that theology is that the early church fell from grace.

On Judaizing, you will be hard pressed to convict me of it. My understanding of the subject is that it is ones attempt to make others conform to Judaism.

That is not my intent, regardless of your best efforts to make it look as so.

I merely contend that the early church still observed the Sabbath, the dietary laws, basically the Torah, up to and including some of the temple sacrifices.

I have not, nor ever will say it is necesarry for salvation.

But, do feel free to misconstrue that which I have said, and asked, labeling me a pharisee and a Judaizer.

I think it ridiculous, but some people feel it helps establish their point.
 
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Der Alte

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KelsayDL said:
Don't just throw other verses on the board? You mean like you do? You simply ignore the text, write it off as "mere proof texts taken out of context" anytime anyone rebutts one of your posts.

Something is only rebutted when you address what has been posted. Not my ignoring previous posts and throwing scriptures at the board. Here is your first post on this thread, you were clearly responding to a previous post. You ignored all the scriptures which had been posted immediately above your post, Romans 14, Colossians 2, Galatians 4, and Acts 15, threw a bunch of scriptures at the board, and quoted one sentence, followed by several sarcastic remarks.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=965555&postcount=70

Below is the post you referred to, in your first post. Where have you ever addressed the scriptures cited, Romans 14, Colossians 2, Galatians 4, Acts 15, posted before your first post in this thread? Nowhere. You just started by posting a few OT verses then several sarcastic questions.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=958305&postcount=67

There is no reason to, it is a waste of time. You are already bent out of shape, I really don't want to engage you further on the issue, but I will, in order to correct a few things I either failed to deliever in a means you could comprehend, or you are just feeling argumentive and "right".

That is right, you don't want to engage anybody on this issue, you don't want to respond to anything posted, "it is a waste of time," you simply want to ignore what anybody else says and shove your views down everybody's throat.

Indeed. Just a simple question, which you have ignored, claiming you have answered it, does not make it so.

I'm sorry, you did ask a question, followed by an accusation, "According to the theology of OS and likeminds it must have [the early church fell from grace]", three times.

OS quotes a scripture from Paul stating that anyone returning to the law is fallen from grace.

You must be referring to a post somewhere, why don't you quote it here and show exactly what was posted. Instead of misquoting a small part so you can deliberately twist what was said. Here is the original post click the link, then use the quote button at the lower right of the window, and rebut that post, if you can.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=945701&postcount=49

I illustrated how the entire early church council at Jerusalem including James, were law abidding saints, that law was the law of God delivered through Moses. IF you chose to ignore that and read some esoteric meaning in to it, then you have done as you willed. But the text is clear, go back and re-examine it.

There is no need to reexamine it, I addressed it, quoting your post at this link, showing how you misrepresent what he passage says, and you have ignored my reply.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=966550&postcount=74

Acts was written how long after the ascension of Jesus? And yet it clearly shows Peter observing the dietary laws instructed by God. He says no less than three times "Not so Lord, for I have NEVER EATEN ANYTHING COMMON OR UNCLEAN".

Did Peter fall from grace?

Have you even read this chapter? Evidently not. Just as you have noted, Peter said that he had been keeping the law, keeping Kosher, not eating anything unclean. But what was Jesus' response, did Jesus tell Peter to keep on doing what he had been doing? No, He did not. The Lord did NOT tell Peter to keep on keeping Kosher, part of the law, but told Peter "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common, three times"
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.​
There is indisputable proof that long after the death of Jesus, the Jerusalem church kept the dietary laws, and if you read what the scripture says in acts 21, without trying to make it say what you want it to say, you will see clearly that the entire early church rooted in Jerusalem observed the law of God given through Moses. It's crystal clear.

Absolutely false. You are the one who has not read the chapter. You only read the verses you want to read and ignore the rest. What were the instructions that were given to the gentile Christians in Acts 21, the same instruction repeated twice in Acts 15? Were the gentiles Christians ever told in Acts, or anywhere else in the NT, to follow all the laws of Moses?
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save ONLY that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

Both here and in Acts 15, Gentiles are specifically excluded from keeping the Mosaic law. Verse 24, Paul walks orderly and keeps the law. But, concerning the Gentiles "we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing." The only "such thing" mentioned was keeping the law.

Also read how Paul got in Peter's face because when he was around Gentiles he lived as a Gentile but would not have anything to do with them when Jews came from Jerusalem because he was afraid of them. Also if the entire church, including Gentiles, were keeping all the law, why did Paul ask Peter why he was forcing Gentiles to live like the Jews. We know the reason, read Acts 15 and 21. Why did Paul take a Nazarite vow in Acts 21? Read 1 Cor 9:20, when Paul was with Jews he lived as a Jew so that he might win them to Jesus.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Furthermore, citing OS and his "proof-text" that anyone returning to the law has fallen from grace. Who could be returning to the law? As I already said, the gentiles were never given the law, they could not be returning to the law.

Quote the post and your comments showing exactly how it is wrong. But evidently you cannot back up what you are saying that is why you keep quoting it out-of-context. The post is linked above, quote the post and address it or quit crying, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."
 
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Der Alte

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Silver Surfer said:
And if God commands a certain day to be observed ?
Is it wise to ignore what God has commanded ?

I am NOT a descendant of Israel. If you are a physical descendant of Israel then you do what you gotta do.
 
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KelsayDL

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Hi der alter!

I have reviewed the thread, and I must agree it wasn't the best decision jumping in posting texts as I did.

But, being as I did, I will wait for OldShepherd to address them.

I seem to have upset you, and I apologize for that. I admit that I appeared a bit sarcastic in some of my questioning, it is an issue the Lord is working in me on.

But we will have to agree to disagree, I do not believe you answered the texts that I posed satisfactorily, at all.


OldShepherd, once again I ask about the following verses;

Isaiah 56:6-
Also, the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant.

What did God mean when he said this? To me, it means any "gentile" who joins himself to the Lord, not to the nation of Israel.

Am I wrong in this regard?

Isaiah 66:23-
And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

When is this particular point in time? It is a time I anxiously await, it has not happened yet has it?

Forgive me earlier, I did join in rather bluntly, as our friend der alter has abundantly pointed out. I did not mean to cause offense, nor shove my view down yours or anyone elses throat.

I have read the entire thread several times, I did not see anywhere these verses were discussed, so if you already entertained them, please show me where. I would really like to hear your take on them.
 
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OldShepherd

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KelsayDL said:
OldShepherd, once again I ask about the following verses;

Isaiah 56:6-
Also, the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant.

What did God mean when he said this? To me, it means any "gentile" who joins himself to the Lord, not to the nation of Israel.

Am I wrong in this regard?

Isaiah 66:23-
And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

When is this particular point in time? It is a time I anxiously await, it has not happened yet has it?

Forgive me earlier, I did join in rather bluntly, as our friend der alter has abundantly pointed out. I did not mean to cause offense, nor shove my view down yours or anyone elses throat.

I have read the entire thread several times, I did not see anywhere these verses were discussed, so if you already entertained them, please show me where. I would really like to hear your take on them.

[size=+1]First Isaiah 56:6, which you have misinterpreted and quoted out-of-context. Is this a command for strangers to join themselves to the LORD, and keep the sabbath and take hold of His covenant? No, it is not. What is a person called who does this? He is called a Jew, just the same as one born among Israel, Lev 19:34. Then, see the very next verse, vs. 7. Those who have already joined themselves to the LORD AND already keep the Sabbath AND already take hold of the covenant, "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain."

Then read the next verse, Isa 56:8, God gathers first the outcasts of Israel, then He gathers others, who are NOT Israel, to Himself, as He said in Hosea 2:23.
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23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Isaiah 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​
[size=+1]Note what Isaiah says and does NOT say. It does NOT say “ON every new moon.,” i.e. once a month on the day of the “new moon” but, “FROM one new moon to new moon,” i.e. continually from month to month. Or in other words perpetually. These same words occur in Esther 3:7, where they are translated "month to month." Haman the pagan is certainly not observing the Jewish "new moon."

The word translated “another” in the KJV is the same word translated “new moon.” That word “khodesh,” is translated month 254 times, out of 276 occurrences in the OT.

The word “Sabbath” also means “week,” see definition d., below. Note, what the passage says and does NOT say. It does NOT say “ON every Sabbath,” i.e. once a week on the Sabbath day, but “FROM Sabbath to Sabbath.,” i.e. continually from one week to the next week. Or in other words perpetually.

The ancient Jews interpreted the verses that way in the Targums, Aramaic translations of the Bible during the Babylonian captivity. See Gill, below.

If Isaiah means every Sabbath or every new moon, how will the time be measured in the world to come, when there is neither sun nor moon to measure Sabbaths or new moons, Rev 21:23, below?
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Est 3:7 In the first month, that is, the month Nisan, in the twelfth year of king Ahasuerus, they cast Pur, that is, the lot, before Haman from day to day, and from month to month, to the twelfth month, that is, the month Adar.

Strong's Number: 02320 חדש Chodesh kho'-desh
from (02318) TDNT Entry TWOT - 613b Noun Masculine
1. the new moon, month, monthly
a. the first day of the month
b. the lunar month

King James Word Usage - Total: 276
month 254, new moon 20, monthly 1, another 1

Strong's Number: 07676 שבת Shabbath shab-bawth'
intensive from (07673) TWOT - 2323b, noun
1. Sabbath
a. sabbath
b. day of atonement
c. sabbath year
d. week
e. produce (in sabbath year)

Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Gill’s commentary on the Whole Bible.Isaiah 66.
Verse 23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,.... Or, "from month in its months" {q}, The Targum is, "in the time of the beginning of the "month in its month";" that is, in every day of the month; or rather every month:

and from one sabbath to another; the form of expressions the same as before; and in like manner paraphrased in the Targum;

{q} wvdxb vdwx ydm "a tempore mensis in mense ejus"; Montanus; "de mense in mensem suum," Forerius. {r} Midrash Tillim in Psal. xc. 15. apud Galatia de Arcan, Cathol. Verses l. 11. c. 8. p. 691. {s} T. Bab. Sota, fol. 5. 1.​
 
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Silver Surfer said:
"I will put my laws (10 commandments) into their minds and write them in their hearts...and I will be a God unto them, and they shall be to me a people", (Hebrews 8:8-10).

The 'New Covenant Christian' will have the Commandments of God upon their hearts and minds...including the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath.

Actually, the Renewed Covenant is to contain the entire Law, not just the Ten Mitzvot.

And yes, sin sacrifices shall be back, read Ezekiel starting with chapter 44.

By the way, the Book of Acts teaching you can walk farther than a mile from your house on Shabbat. If anyone wants to know where it says this in the Book of Acts, feel free to private message me.
 
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Tawhano

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When Moses first went before the Lord in mount Horeb, before he was given the tablets of stone, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the laws, which he wrote in a book. In fact God first gave the Ten Commandments to all the people ‘in person’ (Exodus 20:1) before they were written down in stone.

Exodus 24:3-4
And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.


Later on God gave Moses the stones, which were later broken and written over again. So it is true that the Ten Commandments were separate from the law. So what were the Ten Commandments if they were not part of the law?

Exodus 34:27
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.


Deuteronomy 4:13-14
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


They were the Covenant that God made with Moses and the children of Israel. God made this covenant AND gave them laws to follow. Moral and ceremonial laws were covered in the statutes and judgements that Moses wrote down in the book which he taught Israel. The Ten Commandments written in stone was the Covenant God made with them.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.


God made this covenant with Israel and no other people. So how did the gentiles get into the picture?

Judges 2:20
And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;


Hosea 2:23
And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.


Romans 9:25
As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


But what about the covenant that God made with Israel? What happened to the Ten Commandments?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


A new covenant, not written in stone but in the hearts

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.


Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


And what of the old covenant?

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


Hebrews 8:6-7
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


I chose to live in the new covenant.
 
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Tawhano

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John 14:15-16
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


It can’t get much simpler than that. This is the new covenant spoken of here. Just like in the old covenant those who obey the commandments of the covenant will enter into that covenant with God.

1 John 3:22-24
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Where in the old covenant does it say we are to believe on the name of His Son and love one another? It does not. So where did John get this idea that God’s commandment is that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment? From Jesus of course. This is the commandments of the new covenant that we should obey to receive the promise in John 14:16. Jesus told us he did nothing of himself but that which the Father commanded him to do. Jesus delivered the conditions for the new covenant.

The old covenant was kept by obeying the Ten Commandments and observing the laws given to Moses. If any transgressed those commandments and laws there was system of shedding of blood to atone for those sins. Christ fulfilled the law by shedding his own blood and the atonement he made was permanent. Now in keeping the new commandments we enter into a new covenant. The major difference here is that we are no longer under the law but under grace. If we believe on Jesus Christ and love one another the Holy Spirit of promise will come into us, and the laws will be written on our hearts; no longer written words but the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


There were two covenants according to the law, one of the free and one of the bound. Those in Christ are the children of the free.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


It doesn’t matter how you try to justify keeping the law the scriptures are quite clear that Christ fulfilled the laws and we are now free from the law.

Romans 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
 
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simchat_torah

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The Sabbath was given only to the children of Israel, NOT to all mankind. The ancient Jews considered any non-Jew who observed the Sabbath as worthy of death.


You might want to brush up on your 'ancient Judaism' studies. Those who followed the commandments were called G-d Fearers... or Tzaddik Goy.... righteous Gentiles.

Gentiles who observed the sabbath were honored, and even given a place in the Temple to worship.
 
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Der Alte

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simchat_torah said:
You might want to brush up on your 'ancient Judaism' studies. Those who followed the commandments were called G-d Fearers... or Tzaddik Goy.... righteous Gentiles.

Gentiles who observed the sabbath were honored, and even given a place in the Temple to worship.

Thank you. You might want to read my post and respond to the scriptures I quoted. I was not presenting a study on "ancient Judaism" and I did not see any scripture in your response.
 
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