Scandals in the Roman Catholic Church....

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Wolseley

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Seek and you shall find, don't just follow something because your family grew up in it. Why not make sure it is true?? If being Catholic is your truth, then be Catholic. I have no problem with that.
I did seek, and I did find. ;) After obtaining a Bachelor's Degree in Western Civilization History (Phi Alpha Theta no less, woo hoo), and investigating the theology behind most of the major Protestant branches (and no small number of non-Christian religions), then more than 20 year's worth of instruction and study in the tenants of the Catholic Faith, and the reading of a good 45 to 60% of the Patristic Fathers, apocryphal literature, pseudepigraphal literature, and probably enough ecclesiastical history to float a battleship, I personally have long ago been convinced beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt that the One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is the receptacle of the largest repository of revealed truth, in any religion Christian or otherwise.

I came to this conclusion on my own. It was most definitely not because I "grew up with it".

(Besides, a goodly share of Dad's family was Free Methodist or Church of God of Anderson, Indiana. :eek: We're talking tent revival city, here.)
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Hello Wolseley,
Wow - that's a lot of studying. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a war within our denominations. I know that not all Catholics are lost. On the 700 Club, one of the hosts is Catholic, and she definitely knows the truth. Her name is Terry Meewsen (check spelling). I also love the music of Fernando Ortega. I believe that all churches will have some who get left behind, even mine believe it or not. But I think it is time to take a stand.

When we get to heaven, do you think we will argue about which church was the best?? I think that will be the farthest thing from our minds.

It's amazing that you even believe after so much College. Most people I know that studied Religion in College are totally confused about which religion is correct. One guy I work with, says that they all can be right, if it's right for you. It sounds like he got a thorough brainwashing in College. As for me, I'm not Religious. Religion is mans way of trying to work his way to God, BUT Christianity is God's way of trying to reach man. See ya friend !!
 
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VOW

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Amen, Wolseley!

I grew up with no "church" upbringing from my parents, but I was exposed to different Protestant churches from my grandparents, and others. I got the message, but even as a young child, I was confused by all the unspoken rules and the hypocrisy from one church to the next. "You gotta go to THIS CHURCH, and not the one down the street, or you're going to Hell," seemed to be the common thread through all.

As I got older, I did my own investigating. I took a couple of "Bible as Literature" classes. Read everything I got my hands on. Nothing as formal or as extensive as Wolseley, but not too shabby. It's "common knowledge" that the Roman Catholic Church says it's "the first Christian Church." (And I'm NOT going to argue with that... take that elsewhere) I began my search with "Disagreement Number One" against Catholicism: The Pope.

I checked my Bible. Turned right to Matthew 16: 15-19. "You are Peter (and Peter means "rock"), and upon this rock I will build my church." That's easy... Why people have tried to COMPLICATE that very plain, simple wording is beyond me. Nothing in the Bible about Jesus pointing first at Peter, then at Himself. Or pointing at Peter and then at the ground... or pointing at Peter and then indicating his faith... or pointing at Peter and directing his attention elsewhere. Hey, the whole dialogue is with Peter. I've heard people get all twisty-turny with the Greek words, and whatnot. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and we're talking the SAME WORD. I've even had someone say, "Well, Jesus was God and knew everything, so he said that particular sentence in Greek." Give me a BREAK. The Catholic Church shows a direct LINE between Peter and John PaulII. The Church has a continuous history until Martin Luther got all excited in the 1500s. The Protestant branches have been fracturing into little splinters ever since, and the Catholic Church is still there.

EVERYTHING ELSE I ever questioned about the Catholic Church, I was able to find Scriptural evidence supporting it in the Bible.

In my mind, the sequals are never as good as the original movie. Go to the source. I did. And it was the right choice for me. I've been studying the Catholic faith ever since, over twenty years now. The more I learn, the more I find to be true. It's been an absolutely amazing journey, seriously; every where I've turned, every thing I've discovered, EVERY THING I've read, it all points me in the same direction: The Catholic Church.

That works for me.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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patriarch

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Hope,

Naturally, I am very unhappy with these events too, but I doubt that there are more child abusers among Catholic priests than among girl's soccer coaches, or protestant pastors, for that matter, or policemen.... Catholic priests should be held to a higher standard, no doubt, and it was a mistake for the bishops to rely excessively on psychiatrist's reports that these men were ready to return to ministry, but that was stupidity more than evil.

Hope, at any time in the history of the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, you would be able to find pockets of evil to justify your leaving in a spirit of holy indignation. Somewhere I read that 5% of policeman are demons, 5% are saints, and the overwhelming majority are inbetween. With priests, I would guess the figures would be more like 3% are demons and 20% are saints. After all, Judas constituted 8% of the apostolic college, so things have improved greatly since Our Lord's time!

There are many, many holy and self sacrificing priests and bishops in this country and throughout the world, about whom the media report nothing. Yet if the media filled your TV screen with their stories night after night, you would be very proud of the Church and inspired to lead a better and more prayerful life.

Then what is the solution? "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things..." Phillipians 4:8

Lee
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by VOW
Amen, Wolseley!

I checked my Bible. Turned right to Matthew 16: 15-19. "You are Peter (and Peter means "rock"), and upon this rock I will build my church." That's easy... Why people have tried to COMPLICATE that very plain, simple wording is beyond me. Nothing in the Bible about Jesus pointing first at Peter, then at Himself. Or pointing at Peter and then at the ground... or pointing at Peter and then indicating his faith... or pointing at Peter and directing his attention elsewhere. Hey, the whole dialogue is with Peter.
Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hello VOW,
This is one point that you and I will not agree on. You seem to be saying that Christ built His church on Peter, the one who denied Him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed.

First, His question was not just directed to Peter, but His disciples. Read verse 13-14 also.

And second, Christ did not build His Church on Peter, but the faith that Peter had in his Savior. This faith is a must. It is the rock (foundation) of all true believers. I've heard that half of all Catholics actually believe that Simon Peter was the first Pope. Non-sense. Some have a lot of PRIDE in that, but it is just another falsehood.
 
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The Catholic Church shows a direct LINE between Peter and John PaulII

They can claim this, but there's nothing but tradition and assumptions to back it up. Peter was probably never in Rome, let alone bishop of Rome (but when the Roman church itself writes the history, they can make it say whatever they like).

EVERYTHING ELSE I ever questioned about the Catholic Church, I was able to find Scriptural evidence supporting it in the Bible

Can you find scriptural evidence for the teaching that pagans and unbelievers are saved?
 
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VOW

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To Thunder:

This is one point that you and I will not agree on.
Pardon my bluntness, then why argue it?

His question was not just directed to Peter, but His disciples. Read verse 13-14 also.
Yes, but PETER answered the question, didn't he? "Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father." Hmmm. Sounds like GOD the FATHER singled out Peter, doesn't it?

Christ did not build His Church on Peter, but the faith that Peter had in his Savior.
Where does it say that in this particular passage? And if it WAS the faith, then why did Jesus find it necessary to RENAME Peter? To ROCK, no less?


I've heard that half of all Catholics actually believe that Simon Peter was the first Pope. Non-sense. Some have a lot of PRIDE in that, but it is just another falsehood.

HALF of all Catholics?

Try ALL.

PLEASE don't call the foundation of the Catholic Church "nonsense." It's really not nice.

And yes, Peter did deny Jesus three times, but after the Resurrection, Jesus gave explicit instructions to PETER to "Feed his sheep" and "Feed his lambs." Further, in Acts, Peter exhibits the leadership role among the Apostles. There's a LOT of Scriptural evidence to support this "nonsense," in addition to writings of the Early Church Fathers.

Keep in mind, too, until Martin Luther made his separation from the Church, EVERYONE believed that Peter was the first Pope.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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VOW

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To Rjano:

They can claim this, but there's nothing but tradition and assumptions to back it up. Peter was probably never in Rome, let alone bishop of Rome (but when the Roman church itself writes the history, they can make it say whatever they like).

Well, there are the writings of the Early Church Fathers. But, as you pointed out, they can make it say whatever they like. Too bad those are the same Early Church Fathers who assembled the New Testament...from very same "tradition" you dismiss.

Oh, and there has been archaeological evidence that Peter WAS in Rome.

The Catholic Church is not only responsible for the preservation and assembly of the Scriptural writings that have become the New Testament, but it has been the keeper of the Original Deposit of Faith since the time of the Apostles.

You are not required to agree with me, of course. But as I explained earlier, in MY PERSONAL investigation, the evidence I found, and have continued to find, is more than enough for me.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Hello VOW,
Isn't this the same Catholic Church that burned Christians at the Stake for not believing in all their false teachings??

No wonder a lot of Catholics are following these rituals and traditions. Because if Catholics built their Church on Peter, a mere man, then they have faith in man first, and second would come Christ. I see the whole picture now. Maybe this is the very same church that Jesus said was neither hot or cold. I bet Peter can't wait to get back down here to straighten out all this non-sense, and Mary too. Your faith is in nothing more than fleshly men, a form of Godliness but yet you deny it's power. Time is running out, wake up before it is too late.
 
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Wolseley

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Isn't this the same Catholic Church that burned Christians at the Stake for not believing in all their false teachings??
Please provide me with complete citations from the sources you are referencing to make this statement.

Standard bibliographic format with referenced page numbers will be fine.

:)
 
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VOW

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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
No wonder a lot of Catholics are following these rituals and traditions. Because if Catholics built their Church on Peter, a mere man, then they have faith in man first, and second would come Christ. I see the whole picture now. Maybe this is the very same church that Jesus said was neither hot or cold. I bet Peter can't wait to get back down here to straighten out all this non-sense, and Mary too. Your faith is in nothing more than fleshly men, a form of Godliness but yet you deny it's power. Time is running out, wake up before it is too late.

Amazing!

First, you call my faith "nonsense" and ridicule the Apostolic succession.

NOW, after I have shown Scriptural evidence of the founding of Jesus's church on Peter, you come after me!

Again, DON'T call my faith "nonsense"!

And NOW you are questioning my salvation.

I don't worship Peter, Mary, the Pope, the Saints... I worship GOD.

(note to administrative staff: the previous post is a classic example of "Catholic bashing"!)


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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TheBear

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After reading this thread I have seen a few twists and detours. Hope started this thread, expressing her disappointment towards priests abusing children, and how she sees the Catholic Church handling it. Now, after some straw man arguments, the focus of the thread is the legitimacy and validity of the Catholic Church and it's lineage of Popes.

To the latter, I for one, am getting tired of the same arguments, the same mud slinging, the same emotionally out of control 'discussions' about the Catholic Church, being spread to just about every forum and thread on this website. I am not taking sides. I am merely expressing my disgust, that such behavour is running rampant all over the place. There are new Christians here, who are also reading these mean-spirited, knock-down, drag-out fights. What kind of example are we setting for them?

Let us pray before each posting. Let us not post knee-jerk reaction posts. And, let us be reminded that we as Christians, are to let the light of Christ shine for all the world to see. :)

To Hope,

In reading a lot of your posts, in different threads, it is quite apparent that you are questioning your relationship/belief with the Catholic Church. You stated that you are in the midst of a religious crisis. These boards are a good place to discuss doctrines, etc. A lot of information, beliefs and ideas are exchanged here. But, these boards do have their limitations. I honestly think that your concerns should be discussed with a few, in-person, face-to-face, intimate exchanges. :) Attempts to drum up Protestant support in this forum will be sucsessfull, but at a price. Namely, the in-fighting, bickering and mean-spirited posts that are now occuring. If you are really questioning your faith, take my advice, pray and sit down with someone, one on one. But please, don't take your personal religious crisis, and use it as a platform for a public crusade against the Catholic Church. :(



Again, let us pray before each posting. Let us not post knee-jerk reaction posts. And, let us be reminded that we as Christians, are to let the light of Christ shine for all the world to see. :)


John
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by VOW


Amazing!

First, you call my faith "nonsense" and ridicule the Apostolic succession.

NOW, after I have shown Scriptural evidence of the founding of Jesus's church on Peter, you come after me!

Again, DON'T call my faith "nonsense"!

And NOW you are questioning my salvation.

I don't worship Peter, Mary, the Pope, the Saints... I worship GOD.

(note to administrative staff: the previous post is a classic example of "Catholic bashing"!)


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hello VOW,
I was not meaning to attack your faith. I can't say what you have faith in, because I don't even know you. I was however, in complete disagreement with the way you interpretted that scripture. I don't believe that ALL Catholics put their faith in Peter, as you say 100 %. I will say that, in my opinion anyone that actually believes that Jesus built His Church on Peter has been deceived. Jesus named Him Peter because of the faith that he displayed. Peter wasn't even the greatest teacher of all the disciples. It was Paul that wrote most of the New Testament. The evidence that you say you have, is only your opinion of your interpretation. So it is your opinion against mine. However, I do want to apologize for using the word "nonsense". I could have chosen a better word, I'm sorry. I did not though, question your salvation, that is between you and the Lord.

I thought that the Catholics had their own Forum here. You probably should expect to have disagreements on this forum. This Forum is not that sheltered. There are plenty of disagreements going on here, and they are not all pertaining to the Catholic/Protestant doctrines. At first, I thought the idea of giving the Catholics their own private Forum was a form of discrimination, but now I can see why, because our beliefs and interpretations are so different. No hard feelings sister. I really had no intentions of coming here and starting a war on this thread, but I'm only human too. We all must battle the flesh on a daily basis. See ya !!
 
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VOW

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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
I was not meaning to attack your faith. I can't say what you have faith in, because I don't even know you. I was however, in complete disagreement with the way you interpretted that scripture. I don't believe that ALL Catholics put their faith in Peter, as you say 100 %. I will say that, in my opinion anyone that actually believes that Jesus built His Church on Peter has been deceived.
It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that Peter was the first Pope. Not my opinion, not my interpretation, but HISTORY. If Catholics are true to their faith, and true to their Church, they don't put their "faith" in Peter, they believe the teaching of their Church. If we are indeed deceived, then that is 2000 years of deception. Mind you, until Martin Luther made his break from Catholicism, EVERYONE believed this. It is "your opinion" against the authority and teaching of the Church.



Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
The evidence that you say you have, is only your opinion of your interpretation. So it is your opinion against mine.
Again, sir not "my" interpretation, nor "my" opinion, but the teaching of the Church, which is the caretaker of the Original Deposit of Faith from the Apostles. Again, there is a multitude of corroborating evidence from the Early Church Fathers, the very "editors" which compiled the New Testament that you hold in your hands today.


Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
However, I do want to apologize for using the word "nonsense". I could have chosen a better word, I'm sorry. I did not though, question your salvation, that is between you and the Lord.
Apology accepted. And yes, it is something between me and God.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
I thought that the Catholics had their own Forum here. You probably should expect to have disagreements on this forum. This Forum is not that sheltered. There are plenty of disagreements going on here, and they are not all pertaining to the Catholic/Protestant doctrines. At first, I thought the idea of giving the Catholics their own private Forum was a form of discrimination, but now I can see why, because our beliefs and interpretations are so different.
The problem between Protestants and Catholics is because of misinformation and misinterpretation. I do use the separate Catholic forum, but I feel I am duty bound by my personal witness for Christ to correct errors in what people PERCEIVE the Catholic Church to be. I suggest you study early church history to gain an appreciation for our common roots.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by VOW

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that Peter was the first Pope. Not my opinion, not my interpretation, but HISTORY. If Catholics are true to their faith, and true to their Church, they don't put their "faith" in Peter, they believe the teaching of their Church. If we are indeed deceived, then that is 2000 years of deception. Mind you, until Martin Luther made his break from Catholicism, EVERYONE believed this. It is "your opinion" against the authority and teaching of the Church.
Peace be with you,
~VOW

The true and original Church was born on the day of Pentecost. No where in my Bible do I find that Peter was the first Pope. Nor does it say that we should be true to the Catholic church. In fact, neither the word "Pope" or "Catholic" can even be found anywhere in my Bible. When was the Catholic church born?? Where did the Catholic church receive it's authority?? Who said that we should honor the teachings of the Catholic church??

You said, "If Catholics are true to their faith, and true to their church, they don't put their faith in Peter, they believe the teaching of their church". My dear sister, please take a close look at what you just said. They believe (faith) the teaching of their church. We should have faith in Christ, not our churches, or their teachings. Maybe your church does believe that, but does that make it true?? It may well be HISTORY in your church, but that doesn't make it the truth.
 
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Wolseley

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1 Tim 3:15---the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Matthew 16:18, Luke 22:32, John 21:17---Peter is appointed chief shepherd.

Incidentally, you won't find the phrases "rapture", "altar call", or "personal relationship" anywhere in the Bible, either.

Again, some restrictions apply, your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited.
 
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VOW

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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
The true and original Church was born on the day of Pentecost.

Then why does Jesus mention His Church in that dialogue with Peter?



Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
No where in my Bible do I find that Peter was the first Pope. Nor does it say that we should be true to the Catholic church. In fact, neither the word "Pope" or "Catholic" can even be found anywhere in my Bible. When was the Catholic church born?? Where did the Catholic church receive it's authority?? Who said that we should honor the teachings of the Catholic church??

I GAVE you references in Matthew 15 where Jesus appoints Peter to lead His Church. THAT is when the Christian Church was "born," THAT is when it received its authority. It wasn't referred to as "Catholic" until centuries later; and FYI, "Catholic" means "Universal." The word "Pope" wasn't used until later, it's from the Italian word for "Father."

Paul refers to the Church's authority in 1 Timothy 3:15
You should know how to behanve in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.


Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
You said, "If Catholics are true to their faith, and true to their church, they don't put their faith in Peter, they believe the teaching of their church". My dear sister, please take a close look at what you just said. They believe (faith) the teaching of their church. We should have faith in Christ, not our churches, or their teachings. Maybe your church does believe that, but does that make it true?? It may well be HISTORY in your church, but that doesn't make it the truth.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Paul said so. The Church is the guardian of the Original Deposit of Faith, your railings are against something created by Jesus to lead His people, and has been doing so for 2000 years.

And PLEASE, People, PLEASE quit saying the words to the effect, "You don't know what you're saying." I weigh my words very carefully before I hit that "send" button.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by VOW


Then why does Jesus mention His Church in that dialogue with Peter?>>>>>>>>>
The Church was built on faith in who Jesus was, so when Peter answered the Question, he exercized that faith. Jesus called Him Peter (rock-meaning foundation) because of the faith that he displayed. You interpret it different.




I GAVE you references in Matthew 15 where Jesus appoints Peter to lead His Church. THAT is when the Christian Church was "born," THAT is when it received its authority. It wasn't referred to as "Catholic" until centuries later; and FYI, "Catholic" means "Universal." The word "Pope" wasn't used until later, it's from the Italian word for "Father.">>>>>>>>>>>> Where in Matt. 15, I'm sorry, I can't find where you said that. About the Pope meaning father: Matt. 23:9 - "And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father, and He is in heaven.

Paul refers to the Church's authority in 1 Timothy 3:15>>>>>>>>Your right, it was Paul who said that, not Peter. And this in no way gives authority to a "Catholic Church", but the true church of Christ which is not divided, because every member of the church became born again the same way, "through faith in Christ", not through Peter.





The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Paul said so. The Church is the guardian of the Original Deposit of Faith, your railings are against something created by Jesus to lead His people, and has been doing so for 2000 years.>>>>>>>>>> The church does cling to the truth. We are the salt of the earth. We are children of light. Jesus said we must be born again. He didn't say you must be Catholic, or universal. We are to preach the truth of the gospel, which is totally about how Christ came to die for mans sins, not Peter. When I get to heaven, it won't be because of what Peter did. It will be because of what Christ did. My answers are after your questions. I don't know how to do it any other way, unless I would make many posts, sorry.

Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by Wolseley
1 Tim 3:15---the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Matthew 16:18, Luke 22:32, John 21:17---Peter is appointed chief shepherd.

Incidentally, you won't find the phrases "rapture", "altar call", or "personal relationship" anywhere in the Bible, either.

Again, some restrictions apply, your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited.

Eeven though those phrases aren't in there, I do believe they work. :cool:

Neither is the word "trinity" in the Bible, but I believe in it because it is explicitly implied. ;)

Check your dealer for details. TX and FL residents must pay sales tax. Sorry no COD's.
 
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