New Covenant ...is God's 10 Commandments...

SonWorshipper · Aug 19, 2003

QUOTE=OldShepherd]Here are the verses again. Paul states we, including himself, were in bondage to Stoicheion, a bit later he asks the Galatian church how or why they want to return to bondage of the stoicheion. And the verse is paralleled in Colossians. Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements Stoicheion[ of the world: 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements Stoicheion, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Yes, we all have been in bondage to sin,that is what the whole Passover was about, showing how G-d leads us out of bondage and introducing His plan of salvation, by the blood of the sinless (unleavened) Lamb, that is why Yeshua had to die specifically on Passover and no other time. WE are all born into sin, and when we find the gift that the L-rd has given us as a way of forgiveness and redeemtion from it, why return to it? I think it is stated somewhere that it is like a dog returning to his own vomit.

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OldShepherd: Also see how this is spoken of in Acts. 15. a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

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Please, Do not call the L-rds laws of the way to live "burdensome, or a "yoke" For they most certainly are not, nor are we animals that He would put anything that could be considered a yoke on us. What was unbearable was all the Rabbinic traditions ( taught by the Pharisees) that made it diffecult if not impossible to follow. The law of the L-rd is truth, not a burden. See here in Matthew 15 the L-rd during one of His many "confrontations" with the ruling "lawyers" the Pharisees, has to say. If you still dispute please read Psalms 119.

Matthew 15
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of G-d by your tradition?
4 For G-d commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of G-d of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Those are the burdens, the yoke.

Only sin and the commandments of men are burdensome, not the ways to walk given by the Creator of all.

Originally Posted By: SonWorshipper I dare Say the day that the L-RD sanctified and called Holy is not bondage, nor is keeping it to Him. I recieve so much spiritual blessings on this day, I never experienced anything like that attending church since I was in a bassinette!

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Originally Posted By:OldShepherd:I have seen similar comments from many groups, including Hare Krishna, about how much blessing they receive from their religion. May I ask how much blessing would you have received if you had applied the same diligence and dedication to your worship in church, as you do now?

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Show me where Hari Krishna is taught in the Word of G-d and I will dignify that with an answer, as I do hope that you aren't comparing my beliefs in the whole Word of the L-rd on an equal basis or any basis with that false religion?

Originally Posted By: SonWorshipper {Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ}

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Is this a scripture that proves that the law is done away with? This talks of traditions of men, sort of like some churches that don't just follow the Bible, but the traditions of men. Philosophy? That is not taught in the Bible, that is not Judaism, but Hellinization. Vein deceit, this too couldn't be directed at G-ds laws or ways?

Originally Posted By Old Shepherd:[size=+1]Any man spoil you through vain deceit. Please read the scripture. vain deceit modifies through NOT the law. In an earlier post I said almost anything can be proven by selectively quoting the right (or wrong, as the case may be) scripture. You only quoted one verse, and misunderstood it. Read the whole passage, then tell me what you think it means.[/size]

Since I failed to see why you were posting this if not in regards to using it to prove that the law is done away with then please explain where this shows that the L-rd's law is done away with.

leecappella · Aug 19, 2003

ben johnsons quote:If the SABBATH was made for MAN, will not God ACCEPT the man who honors God WITH observing the Sabbath --- whether that observation falls on SUNDAY, or even WEDNESDAY? If each works six days and dedicates ONE DAY to God and to rest, will God be honored, or offended?

me: Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

SonWorshipper · Aug 19, 2003

If the Sabbath is enjoined to only be followed as you say by only the children of Israel, then how does a Jewish believer keep it, and the Gentile believer not keep it and they are both now one in Messiah? Doesn't that mean that the temple wall dividing the Gentiles ( keeping them out) from the Holy Temple of G-d is in reality built back up? Wasn't it that through Messiah that wall came down allowing the Believing Gentiles to now come to G-d by joining the Jews that already knew Him?It is not the other way around, Gentiles are grafted in to the true root, of which the Jews are of, not visa versa as some many arrogantly think.Salvation is OF the Jews, to the Jews first and THEN the gentiles. This age isn't the first to think that they are superior or have usurped what was not originally theirs. Rabbi Sha'ul addresses this in Romans. Also a few other things he says that might be pertinent to the discussion. Romans 3: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Both Jew and Gentile are justified by faith, but that faith does not void the law.Romans 7:30 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

SonWorshipper · Aug 19, 2003

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.) "Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God." (10)

This is so wack it isn't even funny. Do you believe this? Because if you do it contradicts the Word of the L-rd.

SonWorshipper · Aug 19, 2003

OldShepherd said:
[size=+1]And your point is?[/size]

I should think that obvious.

You wrote:

According to the Jewish Talmud teaching before and during the time of Christ, gentiles were not only, not required to keep the Sabbath, they were forbidden to on pain of death. "it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common feast day; R. Akiba says, as for all Israelite on a feast day; R. Jose says, it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common or week day:'' {g}, and this last is the received sense of the nation; nay, they assert that a Gentile that keeps a sabbath is guilty of death {h}; See Gill on "Mr 2:27". Yea, they say {i}, that "if a Gentile sabbatizes, or keeps a sabbath, though on any of the days of the week, if he makes or appoints it as a sabbath for himself, he is guilty of the same.'' {g} T. Bab. Ceritot, fol. 9. 1. Piske Tosaphot Yebamot. art. 84. Maimon. Hilch. Sabbat, c. 20. sect. 14. {h} T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 58. 2. {i} Maimon. Hilch. Melachim, c. 10. sect. 9.

Firstly the Talmud was compiled in an gathering of extra-biblical commontaries of the Sages interpretations of Torah. AKA "Traditions of men" Yeshua refers to them as the "Traditions of the elders". But these are of MEN, not G-d. Hense what this discussion is built upon.

Rabbi Akiva was just after the time of Yeshua and backed another Rabbi of the time Bar Kochba , as the Messiah, do you wish to take his interpretation over the one of the True Messiah, Yeshua? For He , Yeshua said through the prophet Isaiah 56

Isaiah 56
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Remember what Paul said?

Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Were you not once far off? Have you not joined yourself to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Wherefore do you say that you do not have to nor want to keep the Sabbath? For the L-rd says:

22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he ( Moses) said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said: "To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD": bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

It is funny the quote about it being OK for a proselyte to work on the Sabbath, BTW did you know that Rabbi Akiva was the son of a Jewish convert ( proselyte)?

SonWorshipper · Aug 19, 2003

OldShepherd said:
Exodus 12 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. 19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. 20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread

[size=+1]Where? "in all your [Israel's] habitations" When I, as a Christian, am in their habitation then I should honor their customs.[/size]

[size=+1]Who? "the stranger that sojourneth among you." When I, as a Christian, sojourn among Israel, then I should honor their customs.[/size]

Exodus 20 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

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Who? The "stranger that is within thy [Israel's] gates: When I, as a Christian, am a stranger within Israel's gates, then I should honor their customs.[/size]

Leviticus 16 29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.[size=+1]Who? "a stranger that sojourneth among you." When I, as a Christian, sojourn among Israel, then I should honor their customs.[/size]

"a Statue forever seems like it hasn't ended yet." [size=+1]Correct. for Israel.[/size]

What "customs" do you think that will be had in heaven? Will there be a separate place for the Jews to do "their customs" and another for the Gentiles to "do theirs"? or will that be the time that you will consider yourself within "their gates"?

Seems I recall reading something about a New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and having 12 gates, and the foundations are all named for Jewish men. The "custom" will be to go up to Jerusalem at the same time of year that the L-rd gave thousands of years ago, and if you don't go, there will be a curse.

Please stop building up the wall of partition that the L-rd came to break down.

OldShepherd · Aug 19, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
Yes, we all have been in bondage to sin, that is what the whole Passover was about, showing how G-d leads us out of bondage and introducing His plan of salvation, by the blood of the sinless (unleavened) Lamb, that is why Yeshua had to die specifically on Passover and no other time. WE are all born into sin, and when we find the gift that the L-rd has given us as a way of forgiveness and redeemtion from it, why return to it? I think it is stated somewhere that it is like a dog returning to his own vomit.

[size=+1]You did not read my post and you did not read the pertinent scriptures. The word Paul used “stoicheion/ stoiceion" is NOT identified as sins but, “days, and months, and times, and years.” (Gal 4:10) and “holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days” (Col 2:16)[/size]

SonWorshipper said:
Please, Do not call the L-rds laws of the way to live "burdensome, or a "yoke" For they most certainly are not, nor are we animals that He would put anything that could be considered a yoke on us. What was unbearable was all the Rabbinic traditions ( taught by the Pharisees) that made it diffecult if not impossible to follow. The law of the L-rd is truth, not a burden. See here in Matthew 15 the L-rd during one of His many "confrontations" with the ruling "lawyers" the Pharisees, has to say. If you still dispute please read Psalms 119.

Matthew 15
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Those are the burdens, the yoke.

Only sin and the commandments of men are burdensome, not the ways to walk given by the Creator of all.

[size=+1]Yeah, whatever. I quoted Galatians and Colossians in-context. I can’t help it if you do not like what the scriptures say. If you are not going to read and/or respond to my posts in-context, why should I read what you post or reference? You go read Psalm 119. I have read Colossians, Galatians, and Acts, in-context. For example, this I posted in the other thread.[/size]

[size=+1]I am a New Testament Christian NOT a descendant of Israel or a Pharisee. How about you?[/size]

Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ

Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [Note, see Gal 5:1, “yoke of bondage.”]

15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

OS said:

[size=+1]I have seen similar comments from many groups, including Hare Krishna, about how much blessing they receive from their religion. May I ask how much blessing would you have received if you had applied the same diligence and dedication to your worship in church, as you do now?[/size]

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SonWorshipper:
Show me where Hari Krishna is taught in the Word of G-d and I will dignify that with an answer, as I do hope that you aren't comparing my beliefs in the whole Word of the L-rd on an equal basis or any basis with that false religion?

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[size=+1]Thus proving you are spoiling for a fight and refuse to read and/or respond to my posts in-context. You deliberately misrepresented what I said, it is a copout, and does not answer the question I asked. “May I ask how much blessing would you have received if you had applied the same diligence and dedication to your worship in church, as you do now?”[/size]

SonWorshipper said:

Since I failed to see why you were posting this if not in regards to using it to prove that the law is done away with then please explain where this shows that the L-rd's law is done away with.

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[size=+1]Read my posts and find out what I am actually saying instead of spinning out-of-context bits and pieces to take issue with. Please show me one verse in the NT where anyone Christ, or any of the disciples, commands Christians to observe the Sabbath. Every one of the commandments are reiterated in the NT, by either Jesus or the disciples, with the exception of the Sabbath commandment.[/size]

Silver Surfer · Aug 20, 2003

You are making the mistake of not realizing that in the book of Acts....the Sabbath was kept 84 times !

Have you never read Hebrews 4:4-11 ?
Since Jesus never spoke of observing another day...the Sabbath remains, (verses 8,9).

Have you never read in Matthew 5:17,18....that the law of God (the 10 commandments, Exodus 20:3-17)....cannot pass away, until after heaven and earth pass away first ?

OldShepherd · Aug 21, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
You are making the mistake of not realizing that in the book of Acts....the Sabbath was kept 84 times !

Have you never read Hebrews 4:4-11 ?
Since Jesus never spoke of observing another day...the Sabbath remains, (verses 8,9).

Have you never read in Matthew 5:17,18....that the law of God (the 10 commandments, Exodus 20:3-17)....cannot pass away, until after heaven and earth pass away first ?

[size=+1]And you are making the mistake of picking and choosing certain verse which out-of-context seem to support your presuppositions and ignoring the rest of the NT and all the evidence that has been posted on this thread.

The Sabbath was given ONLY to the physical descendants of the man Israel. In the NT starting with Jesus in the gospels, nine of the ten commandants are repeated as binding on NT Christians. The Sabbath is NOT mentioned.

In acts 15 the first church council stated, twice, only four other laws binding on Christians, abstain from pollution of idols, sexual immorality, [all types not just adultery], things strangled, and blood.. The Sabbath was NOT included.

And Acts 15:21 does NOT mean that Christian would learn in the synagogue. How or why would Christians learn the rest of the law in the synagogues and NOT learn these four rules, which were part of that law? Circumcision, not four of the Noachian laws, was the condition for entering the synagogues and temple.[/size]

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

KelsayDL · Aug 21, 2003

Isaiah 56:6-
Also, the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant.

Isaiah 66:23-
And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Key word is all. Context is future.

Acts 15:21

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

I realize most people like to leave this verse out of their line of sight. Whether they are saying the law is done away with for gentiles and we only have 4 commandments to keep given by the Jerusalem council in the previous verses, or those who say the sabbath was never for "gentiles".

Yet this verse is clear. It was instruction given by the Jerusalem council to GENTILE CONVERTS that they were to at first observe that which they determined, for they would grow in the faith by attending synagogues set-up in the diaspora which taught the Torah EVERY SABBATH.

And Acts 15:21 does NOT mean that Christian would learn in the synagogue.

Oh? Please do educate me as to what it does mean.

Serious, I really want to know.

I've never learned the "esoteric" meaning of this verse taught by the church. I wasn't aware one was developed.

But I am all ears and sincerly want to know the "true" meaning of seeminly plain words.

OldShepherd · Aug 22, 2003

KelsayDL said:
Acts 15:21

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

I realize most people like to leave this verse out of their line of sight. Whether they are saying the law is done away with for gentiles and we only have 4 commandments to keep given by the Jerusalem council in the previous verses, or those who say the sabbath was never for "gentiles".

Yet this verse is clear. It was instruction given by the Jerusalem council to GENTILE CONVERTS that they were to at first observe that which they determined, for they would grow in the faith by attending synagogues set-up in the diaspora which taught the Torah EVERY SABBATH.

Oh? Please do educate me as to what it does mean.

Serious, I really want to know.

I've never learned the "esoteric" meaning of this verse taught by the church. I wasn't aware one was developed.

But I am all ears and sincerly want to know the "true" meaning of seeminly plain words.

[size=+1]No you do NOT want to be educated. Below is what I said. You only quoted the first sentence. No, you really don't want to know. There is NO "esoteric" meaning. And NO you are not all ears.

"And Acts 15:21 does NOT mean that Christian would learn in the synagogue. How or why would Christians learn the rest of the law in the synagogues and NOT learn these four rules, which were part of that law? Circumcision, not four of the Noachian laws, was the condition for entering the synagogues and temple.

If the Christians would learn the law and everything, in the synagogues, why would it be necessary to tell them the four Noachian laws? The synagogues taught the OT testament which includes those four laws. See my post of 20 August, http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=958305&postcount=67]here.[/url] Pharisees came from Jerusalem saying that gentiles Christians must be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses, the council said, "We gave no such commandment."

Then immediately after saying they gave no such commandment, to keep the law of Moses, the council said, "it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well."

The Holy Spirit, and the council, including, Peter, James, and Paul, said No greater burden, oln the gentiles, than the four Noachian laws, and NO commandment to keep the law, and not one place in the NT are gentile Christians commanded to go to the synagogues and learn the law.

These links are where I discuss the parallels between Pauls's letter to Galatia and Colossae, and how he addresses gentile Christians and the law, previously in this thread. He states that those who return to the law, after they have received grace, from Jesus Christ, they are fallen from Grace

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=945701&postcount=49

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=942480&postcount=29

This link I discuss where God in the OT stated several times that the Sabbath was a sign between Him and the descendants of Israel, previously in this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=884295&postcount=10
[/size]

KelsayDL · Aug 22, 2003

Thats all well and good. But, you have yet to explain the very odd verse concerning Moses. Simply stating that it was not what was meant, isn't enough.

Now I ask again, what was the purpose of saying "for Moses of old time has them that preach him in every city being read every Sabbath"

Why say that when discussing the Gentiles?

He states that those who return to the law, after they have received grace, from Jesus Christ, they are fallen from Grace

So, did Paul fall from grace? What about the entire church council of Jerusalem. Which were all law observant Jews long after the ascension of Yeshua?

Acts 21:15-26 15 And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem. 16 There went with us also certain of the disciples of Caesarea, and brought with them one Mnason of Cyprus, an old disciple, with whom we should lodge. 17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Sacrilege of sacrilege! The entire early church council has fallen from grace!

What are we to make of this. Here we have the entire church council admitting they walk according to the law of moses, questioning Paul and rumors about his teaching of lawlessness.

After which he fulfills a lawful vow, given in the law, including SACRIFICES according to the law, to show to them, (them being James and the entire eldership of the early church, not to mention the thousands of converts, all of which are believers in Yeshua as the Messiah), that he also (just as they) walks orderly according to the law.

So, did the entire early church fall from grace?

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2003

KelsayDL said:
Thats all well and good. But, you have yet to explain the very odd verse concerning Moses. Simply stating that it was not what was meant, isn't enough.

Now I ask again, what was the purpose of saying "for Moses of old time has them that preach him in every city being read every Sabbath"

Why say that when discussing the Gentiles?

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

15:1 ¶ And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (see verse 5)

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

20 But that we write unto them, (gentiles ONLY) that they (Gentiles) abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

This passage is difficult to understand only if you ignore the rest of the Bible and start with the belief that gentile Christians are required to keep the law. But if you read the chapter, gentiles are mentioned six times in these verses, they need to be instructed what is required of them when they believe, but Jews do not need any instructions when they become Christians because, "Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day"

Paul said that commanding the gentiles to keep the law of Moses was a "yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" And the council ended with the Peter, James, and Paul saying,

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

"no greater burden than these [four] necessary things;." No commandment to go to the synagogues. No commandment to keep the law of Moses. Nowhere in the New Testament are gentiles commanded to attend synagogue or keep the law.

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2003

KelsayDL said:
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

The first part of verse 19 is talking about gentile Christians and the second part is talking about Jews who believed in Jesus.

and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

They were concerned about rumors that Paul was teaching Jews, NOT Christians, to forsake the law of Moses. This verse says nothing about what Paul ws teaching gentile Christians

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law

When Paul was with Jews he respected the Jewish customs so as not to offend and that he might win some to Jesus Christ. Paul was NOT abandoning the Christian faith and returning to the law for salvation or justification.

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

24 and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
b]25[/b] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The same jews who were concerned that Paul was teaching Jews to forsake the law of Moses now repeat the same four laws that the council commanded in chapter 15. Paul kept the law while he was in the company of Jews, but concerning the Gentiles they said, "we have written and concluded that they (gentiles) observe no such thing, (keep the law) save ONLY that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." And once agsin there is no commandment for gentiles to keep the law or go to the synagogues.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Paul who had been born a Pharisee, while he is with Jews follows their customs so as not to offend them and to prove that he was NOT teaching Jews to forsake the law of Moses.

Sacrilege of sacrilege! The entire early church council has fallen from grace!

Oh hypocrisy of hypocrisy a few out-of-context verses do not make a Bible.

What are we to make of this. Here we have the entire church council admitting they walk according to the law of moses, questioning Paul and rumors about his teaching of lawlessness.

After which he fulfills a lawful vow, given in the law, including SACRIFICES according to the law, to show to them, (them being James and the entire eldership of the early church, not to mention the thousands of converts, all of which are believers in Yeshua as the Messiah), that he also (just as they) walks orderly according to the law.

So, did the entire early church fall from grace?

Oh What we are to make of this? Oh me oh my. Paul kept the law while he was in the company of Jews but in all his letters, particularly Galatians and Colossians he made it clear that Christians were not required to keep the ceremonial law.

So once you get off your sarcastic hypocritical horse and actually read the scriptures, instead of ignoring them and posting your few proof texts, you will see that Christians are saved by grace NOT by works of the law,

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

KelsayDL · Aug 22, 2003

Again I ask. Did the entire early church fall from grace?

According to the theology of OS and likeminds it must have.

He states that those who return to the law, after they have received grace, from Jesus Christ, they are fallen from Grace

Who is returning to the law and falling from grace?

The gentiles were never given the law, so how could they be returning to it?

Apparently, the entire early church in Jerusalem fell from grace. That is the logical conclusion of this theology.

The early church rooted in Jerusalem were law abiding saints. Thats a fact.

Some people would have us believe they are in hell for adhering to the teachings of God.

Sounds like a sham to me.

Der Alte · Aug 22, 2003

KelsayDL said:
Again I ask. Did the entire early church fall from grace?

According to the theology of OS and likeminds it must have.

Who is returning to the law and falling from grace?

The gentiles were never given the law, so how could they be returning to it?

Apparently, the entire early church in Jerusalem fell from grace. That is the logical conclusion of this theology.

The early church rooted in Jerusalem were law abiding saints. Thats a fact.

Some people would have us believe they are in hell for adhering to the teachings of God.

Sounds like a sham to me.

Keep posting your nonsense. The scripture is posted above read it or don't, your choice. Of course it sounds like a sham to you because you have not read the Bible. All you know are a handful of out of context proof texts. All of your verses ahve been answered. But you haven't answered a single one of the verses posted. All you do is slough them off and post more proof texts.

You are just like the Pharisees in Acts chapter 15, insisting that Chritians keep the law of Moses, when Peter, James, and Paul and the other leaders said very plainly they gave no such commandment. And I guess your Pharisee, Judaizing Bible does not have Acts, Galatians, or Colossians.

KelsayDL · Aug 22, 2003

Well, I am sorry you have gotten so wound up. I will refrain from labeling you as you have done me.

I've read the texts provided, and the entirety of the bible many times (including the so called "old testament"). I've been a born-again believer for over 20 yrs.

Only recently have I started to question many of the things the church teaches. And will continue to do so, regardless of people such as yourself who always want to ascribe labels to people who ask questions.

I would never insist people keep anything law related for the explicit purpose of salvation. However, I would recommend they question the theology that the law is abolished.

Seemingly they should say no, because even Jesus said that was not his purpose. Yet we are taught that upon his death ALL was fulfilled and the law is done away with (actions speak louder than words), contrary to what he himself said.

I would question the theologies supported by ascribing negative connotations to the teachings of God. When people call his teachings an old dead word, bondage, weak and beggarly or anything similiar, a red flag should go up, and it does for me.

I would defianately question people who say "Paul" has freed us from the law.

Who is Paul? Paul was a mere man never given the authority to do such a thing.

So for now, I believe Paul is greatly misunderstood, just as Peter said he was.

If he is not, then he is a heretic according to the word of God in deuteronomy chpt. 13.

In the end, it is the heart that matters. You will never hear me say the law is my salvation. Nor will you ever hear me say anything negative about the teachings of God, especially that they are an old dead word.

But anyway, you have a pleasant day.

Silver Surfer · Aug 22, 2003

So, what are you planing to do in the new earth where the Sabbath will be kept for all eternity ?
(Study Isaiah 66:22,23)

Ben johnson · Aug 22, 2003

ben johnsons quote:If the SABBATH was made for MAN, will not God ACCEPT the man who honors God WITH observing the Sabbath --- whether that observation falls on SUNDAY, or even WEDNESDAY? If each works six days and dedicates ONE DAY to God and to rest, will God be honored, or offended?

me: Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Touche'...

Der Alte · Aug 23, 2003

KelsayDL said:
Well, I am sorry you have gotten so wound up. I will refrain from labeling you as you have done me.

I've read the texts provided, and the entirety of the bible many times (including the so called "old testament"). I've been a born-again believer for over 20 yrs.

Only recently have I started to question many of the things the church teaches. And will continue to do so, regardless of people such as yourself who always want to ascribe labels to people who ask questions.

Wound up? Why should I be wound up you only made three false accusations in your post, quoted below. If you have read the Bible many times as you claim perhaps you can explain how you interpret the passages which have been posted, Acts 15, Galatians, and Colossians. Post the pertinent verse and tell us what you think it means, don't just throw other scriptures at the board.

Just asking questions? Is this a question? No it is an accusation, for which you have not posted any proof. "According to the theology of OS and likeminds it must have."

KelsayDL said:
Again I ask. Did the entire early church fall from grace?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=966560&postcount=75

According to the theology of OS and likeminds it must have.

This is Kelsay NOT labeling people, accusing them of teaching that the entire early church fell from grace.

The gentiles were never given the law, so how could they be returning to it?

In reference to what? Is there a post somewhere that this might be referring to?

Apparently, the entire early church in Jerusalem fell from grace. That is the logical conclusion of this theology.

Here is Kelsay again NOT labeling people, making the false accusation that people who disagree with him teach or believe that the early church fell from grace.

The early church rooted in Jerusalem were law abiding saints. Thats a fact.

What exactly do you mean by “law abiding” and where is your proof?

Some people would have us believe they are in hell for adhering to the teachings of God.

Sounds like a sham to me.

More of Kelsay NOT labeling people. Anyone who disagrees with his Judaizing, he accuses them of teaching that people go to hell for following the teaching of God.

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