Nicene Creed - How much different If Jews were allowed to be present?

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Woodsy

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Here's an interesting quote from the link Oblio provided (emphasis mine):

"At the end of the second century or the beginning of the third Jewish authorities established a new system for fixing the date of Passover. This new system did not take the vernal equinox into account, so that once every three years Passover came before it. [32] Many Christians were troubled by this: why, they asked, should they celebrate the memorial of the passion and resurrection on the basis of a calendar calculation that was not in use in the time of Jesus? Then again, in the new Jewish System, following a calculation based on only on the equinox, there could be a double anomaly: Passover could be celebrated twice in one twelve month period, that is, from one vernal equinox to the next, or it could not be celebrated at all from one to the other. On the whole, Christians gave great weight to the relation between Pascha and the vernal equinox because the time of the passion itself was linked to the six days of Creation. "
 
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Maximus

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I have a couple of questions.

First, is Sonworshipper saying there is something wrong with the Nicene Creed?

Second, how do you know that none of the bishops present at Nicea in 325 was of Jewish ethnic origin?

Perhaps ethnic origin was not a matter of primary concern in the universal Church by the 4th century, and nobody gave a hoot who used to be a Jew or a Mithra-worshipper or whatever. Greeks, Scythians, Jews, Goths: once they found Jesus and were baptized they were all just plain old Christians, the real chosen people of God.
 
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Woodsy

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I can't speak for SonWorshipper, but I don't think the question was one of ethnicity so much as the idea (perhaps incorrect) that the churches which were formed by Jewish Believers in Israel would have had a different flavor or sensibility than the Gentile-formed churches. (Of course, Christ formed all the churches :))
I'm not sure whether Messianic Judaism has as one of its principles the idea that present-day Messianic worship is closer in nature and character to the first century church in Israel than the worship services of Catholics or Orthodox or Protestants, but that's the idea that I get from some of what I read...
However, if the Bishop of Jerusalem was present at the Council, that speaks volumes to me about the history of the church and the direction it took at that point.
 
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Maximus

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What "Gentile-formed" churches? The Apostles were all Christians of Jewish origin.

The Church is the Body of Christ. She is one just as Christ is one and cannot be divided (1 Cor. 1:13; Eph. 3:6, 4:4-5).

There were no separate ethnic gatherings, no separate "Jewish" believers preserving the "true faith" while the rest of the Church apostatized.

Millions of 1st-century Jews became Christians and ceased to maintain an identity separate from other Christians.

There never were any Jim Crow laws in the Church, no Apartheid.
 
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Woodsy

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Maximus, I feel like your getting a little defensive here.


Maximus said:
What "Gentile-formed" churches? The Apostles were all Christians of Jewish origin.

And all the students of the Apostles were born Jews? No churches were formed by born Jews?

The Church is the Body of Christ. She is one just as Christ is one and cannot be divided (1 Cor. 1:13; Eph. 3:6, 4:4-5).

I agree in principle, but my eyes tell me something different as I see Catholics, Baptists, Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. promulgating very different doctrines in some areas.

There were no separate ethnic gatherings, no separate "Jewish" believers preserving the "true faith" while the rest of the Church apostatized.

Now this sounds a bit defensive. Nowhere do I say that only the Jewish believers prserved the "true faith" as you put it.
I am imagining that in predominantly Jewish areas, the churches may have had a higher proportion of Jews in attendance and in positions of authority.
I think that churches in Russia have produced very Russian churches, that churches in Africa have produced some very African churchres.

Millions of 1st-century Jews became Christians and ceased to maintain an identity separate from other Christians.

I believe this also, but you, must also factor in that Jews are Jews and very often remain so despite changes in geography or religion. I am a Christian, but also a Jew. You can't take away my Jewishness any more than I could take away your Italian-ness or Russian-ness or whatever your background is. But I do not contend that my Jewishness makes me a more authentic Christian.

There never were any Jim Crow laws in the Church, no Apartheid.

That's nice. :) But I think you're reacting to some sort of offense with this statement. I don't remember suggesting that there were.

I suppose none of what I'm saying matters if you believe that the Catholic and Orthodox churches are the only true churches.
 
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Woodsy

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I found an interesting article last night that I'll share with you guys here (SonWorshipper, are you lurking? :))

An excerpt:
"The clearest picture we have of the actual faith and practices of the early Jewish believers comes from the book of Acts. A brief perusal of the book of Acts confirms that the early believers in Messiah understood that the Torah had not been abrogated. Furthermore, their faith and practices were consistent with one based on the Torah-submissive lifestyle modeled and taught by Yeshua in Matthew 5:17-20. This lifestyle was firmly rooted in the foundation of the Torah. The book of Acts informs us that there were tens of thousands of Jewish believers in the Messiah (Acts 5:14; 21:20; 22:12) who zealously kept the Torah commandments of Moses. These early Jewish believers met regularly in synagogues (Acts 9:2; 22;19), on the Sabbath (Acts 13:5; 17:1-4), celebrated the feasts (Acts 2; 18:21; 20:6, 16; 24:11; 27:9) and by their own sworn testimony confessed that they kept the Torah of Moses (Acts 24:14; 25:8; 28:17) even as Yeshua taught they should. These Torah-submissive Jewish believers, who were called Nazarenes (Acts 24:5), and their offspring were to become the victims of the seeds of separation sown by the western Roman Church."

And...

""We shall now especially consider heretics who…call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly…Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews; for they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings… so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and to the customs of the Jews, except they believe in Christ…They preach that there is but one God, and his son Jesus Christ. But they are very learned in the Hebrew language; for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets…They differ from the Jews because they believe in Christ, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites, such as circumcision, the Sabbath, and other ceremonies…Otherwise, this sect of the Nazarenes thrives most vigorously in the state of Berea, in Coele-Syria, in Decapolis, around Pella, and in Bashan…After they departed from Jerusalem, they made their start from here, as all the disciples dwelt in Pella, having been admonished by Christ to depart Jerusalem and emigrate because of imminent danger (italics mine).”"

(Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

From: http://www.tnnonline.net/theonews/churchhistory/different-jews-christians/index.html
 
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Oblio

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I think to answer the question in the OP, the Jews (as a race) were indeed present or represented at the first council. Also important to note is that as Holy Scripture says, we are all one in Christ and our ethnicity matters not in our faith as Christians. It is also clear from history that Christian worship borrowed from and used portions of the Jewish worhip praxis of the first century AD. This is not to say that Russian worship is exactly the same as that which is practices by Palestinian Christians, nor is it the same as the Greeks, there are certainly differences in music, iconography, even minor differences in the rubrics, but it is the same faith, the same Creed and the same Tradition that holds us together.
 
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SonWorshipper

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I am closing this thread until it is decided what to do with it. It has turned into a debate, which is NOT allowed in here EXCEPT among Messianic Believers.

As Jews, or those that identify with them this was a topic to be discussed regarding that. Not what the Church thinks for that is plainly obvious, it follows the creed as sanctioned by Constantine.


And as far as representation, a Bishop from Jerusalem does not a Jew make, nor mean Jewish representation. AFAIK the church in Jerusalem at that time was strickly a Gentile church.

Tell me how this was possible to have a Jewish believer as a Bishop ANYWHERE after this?

AD 153 Justin Martyr charged all Jews with murdering God (The Bible says it was God’s will to crush Yeshua and that each of us was really responsible for Yeshua’s death - see ISAIAH 53:5-6;10-11) Thus, certain terms, like "Christ" can have an sour effect, as many times Jews were called "Christ killers".



Or how about this?

AD 325 The Nicean decisions reject the Jewish believers in Yeshua because they still believed in keeping Jewish heritage and in the future of Israel. Jews are forced to renounce Jewish practices, take new “Christian “ names and even eat unclean foods to “prove” their faith in Yeshua was genuine. ( contrast with Acts 15 - the same issue was addressed regarding Gentiles who came to faith; the Jewish believers decided Gentiles didn't have to become Jews).



Now I wonder what representation from Jewish believers was there after this? How would one know?:(
 
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