Do you believe that God ordains all of the suffering that we experience or do you believe that He merely permits it to happen or, maybe, a combination of both?
Thanks for your thoughts.
God bless
Thanks for your thoughts.
God bless
Suffering
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Drotar
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I believe that suffering exists in His plan through His permissive decree. I don't know...
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Drotar said:
What does that mean?
Are you saying He allows it but does not ordain that it should come to pass?
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Reformationist writes: "Do you believe that God ordains all of the suffering that we experience..."
I believe the Christian's suffering has been ordained. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4), the believer will suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:25; John 15:18-19; Acts 9:15-16; Rom. 8:16-18; 9:1-3; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:24; 2 Tim 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 4:12-16). It would seem suffering with Him is a natural part of the Christian's experience since we're called to witness against sin and proclaim the gospel in the enemy's home territory. "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John 15:18-19). "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;" (1 Pet. 4:12-13).
Suffering was the ministry that Paul was appointed to when the Lord sent Ananias to him: "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." (Acts 9:15-16).
While I make no claim to be able to explain suffering, it does seem to be an essential part of the believer's life and union with Christ.
There's also the doctrine of chastisement, but I'd distinguish it from the theme of suffering because the Father's correction of His own is of a somewhat different character.
In regard to the unregenerate, although in His sovereignty God has destined some to retribution, I'm not sure whether or not He ordains their suffering in this life or simply allows them to reap the rewards of their lost estate.
In Christ,
Tracey
I believe the Christian's suffering has been ordained. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4), the believer will suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:25; John 15:18-19; Acts 9:15-16; Rom. 8:16-18; 9:1-3; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:24; 2 Tim 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 4:12-16). It would seem suffering with Him is a natural part of the Christian's experience since we're called to witness against sin and proclaim the gospel in the enemy's home territory. "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John 15:18-19). "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;" (1 Pet. 4:12-13).
Suffering was the ministry that Paul was appointed to when the Lord sent Ananias to him: "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." (Acts 9:15-16).
While I make no claim to be able to explain suffering, it does seem to be an essential part of the believer's life and union with Christ.
There's also the doctrine of chastisement, but I'd distinguish it from the theme of suffering because the Father's correction of His own is of a somewhat different character.
In regard to the unregenerate, although in His sovereignty God has destined some to retribution, I'm not sure whether or not He ordains their suffering in this life or simply allows them to reap the rewards of their lost estate.
In Christ,
Tracey
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Benedicta00
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I voted a combination of both and this is a fellowship only post not designed to invoke a debate.
I believe that all suffering comes to us either by his permissive will or his ordaining will and in either case it is a grace from him.
If someone wants to give Satan all the credit then what Satan will do is bring evil from it, but if someone wants to look at suffering as a gift from God and give their suffering to him, then he will bring good from it because he is good, good is all he knows how to do but it is all a mystery and we must trust that God will bring good from our sufferings even if we cant see any good.
We do not have to like it or enjoy it, but accept that it came from God either ordaining and permissively and it is a grace because he will bring good from it.
I believe that all suffering comes to us either by his permissive will or his ordaining will and in either case it is a grace from him.
If someone wants to give Satan all the credit then what Satan will do is bring evil from it, but if someone wants to look at suffering as a gift from God and give their suffering to him, then he will bring good from it because he is good, good is all he knows how to do but it is all a mystery and we must trust that God will bring good from our sufferings even if we cant see any good.
We do not have to like it or enjoy it, but accept that it came from God either ordaining and permissively and it is a grace because he will bring good from it.
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There are sufferings that a Christian can expect to suffer, which are persecutions for being a good Christian.
And there are sufferings that a Christian ought not to accept and suffer, like sickness, poverty, accidents and premature death. These are from the devil and we should resist him.
How can God plan/ordain evil for us? He only permits them.
Jer 29 11 For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
And there are sufferings that a Christian ought not to accept and suffer, like sickness, poverty, accidents and premature death. These are from the devil and we should resist him.
How can God plan/ordain evil for us? He only permits them.
Jer 29 11 For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
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Drotar
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He ordains them, but does not personally, actively bring it about. Much like reprobation.
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Andrew said:
John 9:1-3
Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
This man is one of many examples of people whom the Lord brought into the world blind so that at the appointed time the glory of God could be revealed.
So God did what, looked at time and saw something that would happen and before it actually ever happened he permitted it? Pray tell, why would He do this if it wasn't His divine desire for it to happen? Couldn't He have stopped it?
This is just plain lazy interpretation.
Look at the beginning of that section of Scripture:
Jeremiah 29:1
Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the remainder of the elders who were carried away captive--to the priests, the prophets, and all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon.
Who was the "you" in verse 11? Was that letter speaking of God's relationship with all people or was it a clear cut reference to "the remainder of the elders who were carried away captive--to the priests, the prophets, and all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon?"
Who is the "you" that the prophet is reciting God's words about? He spent 10 verses telling you who the "you" was and you apply this to all of mankind?
That's just out of context.
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Drotar said:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
The Lord doesn't personally bring it about? You sure you don't want to rethink that?
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Firstly, that verse does not in any way say that God made him blind.
Gosh, why dont you ask God to give you a blind child then, or one born without legs, then His glory can be revealed.
the things of God are simple. A child can understand it, but not hocus pocus homophisolophical theologians trying to be smart.
If you preach that God ordains evil and does things like bring lame babies into the world then you havent understood the simplicity of the verse:
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
When a blind baby is born into the world, the parents don't go:"Praise the Lord, this is abundant life!"
So, who's side are you on? the destroyer?
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Andrew said:
What? The man was blind since birth. Who do you think created him that way?
Andrew, aside from being ridiculously childish, what purpose does this statement serve?
You think context, audience, literary style, and historical climate are not important tools for understanding Scripture? Well, that explains alot to me about why you understand the Gospel the way you do. Thanks for clearing that up.
Pray tell, if it is not God who brings a "lame baby" into the world, who does it?
They may not say that because it is very natural, as fallen humans, to focus, as you obviously do, on how something like that affects us rather than seeing that the glory of God is revealed in the opportunity He gives us to minister to someone like that, even our own child. Would I be happy if God had given me a blind child? Probably not. Would I believe that it was most definitely God's sovereign Will that I have a blind child? Undoubtedly.
By the grace of God I have not believed the ridiculous notions that people like Benny Hinn and you spout. Like the two of you I do believe that miraculous healing occurs everyday. Unlike you and him I don't think it come through some goofy, self proclaimed prophet. Do those things happen because we're powerful prayer warriors? Of course not. It happens because God is gracful and merciful. Should we pray? Of course. You're one of those that obviously believes that if you pray for something and it doesn't happen then you didn't "have enough faith." Get real.
You see, we have an exact biblical account of a man who lost everything he had. He didn't have a blind child. He had no children because the Lord brought much calamity into his life and allowed everything the man owned to be scourged. What was his response?:
Job 1:21
And he said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the LORD."
You know what's so sad? You worship a God who either doesn't care that people suffer or is impotent to stop it. I'd love to see the list of things that actually happen that you think the Lord wasn't directly involved in. In this post alone:
Sickness, people born with physical deformities, and blindness just to name a few. I sure am glad I worship a God who is in control of everything, even the things I don't understand or see as bad things.
This overwhelming need that people have for God to never do anything that they deem is bad because it affects them or others is so self centered.
Everything that has ever happened, to include sickness, wars, persecution, death, sin, etc has been the Will of God. Everything. You act as if we operate autonomously from God's constant rule. You act as if God set things up and just sits back to watch without taking an active part in the outworkings of His own divine plan. What you see as a bad thing, the birth of a blind child, the Lord would see as a blessing because it gives you a chance to be godly and minister to that person in need.
The view you purport of God shows Him to be unconcerned, uncaring, impotent, surprised, and weak.
I know that God works ALL things to the good of those who love Him and are called according TO HIS PURPOSE. Neat how that statement ends, huh? It's according to His purpose, not yours, not mine. So, when we think something doesn't go our way or we view a circumstance as bad, like our child being born blind, the truth is that it's good because God is working it to our good. We are being sanctified by that.
You are stuck on how it affects you and how you feeeeeel about it. How should you feel about it? You should be thankful that the good Lord gave you such a precious creation as well as the opportunity to become humble and caring and able to focus your life on someone else.
We were created to worship Him not so that we could have a calamity free life.
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Benedicta00
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I have a question for Andrew.
Do you think that Satan has power over God and if God does not want a child to be born blind he would have no control over his creation and stop it from happening?
Do you think that Satan has power over God and if God does not want a child to be born blind he would have no control over his creation and stop it from happening?
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rotorhead
Active Member
I had to vote for a combination. But I don't think even that answer fully explains it.
According to the Bible, Job was righteous and still suffered. Why? Because God allowed Satan to tempt him. So there we have God allowing it, though not causing it.
Mush of our suffering is simply a result of our living in a fallen world. Adam was essentially cursed to suffer in his work, and Eve to suffer in childbirth, decreed by God as a direct result of sin. Suffering is an unavoidable result of human sin.
I think some of our suffering is directly caused by God though. Not that it is evil. God has spoken volumes to me through suffering of various sorts. That's because my fleshly nature is to avoid Him when things seem fine. Suffering brings us back to God. I've seen plenty of times when God has directly thwarted my personal plans, and I felt I was suffering unjustly. But God works those situations for His purposes, which are ultimately to bring me closer to Him.
I like what shelb5 said about God's purpose. It is not ultimately important to God if we remain single, though we long for a companion, or struggle to pay the bills, or lose a limb, or whatever.
Can God cause suffering and calamity? Of course. it would be awfully hard to read the Bible and not see that. But those sufferings are for a purpose. Study the Israelites. God spent a lot of time making them suffer, for the sole purpose of drawing them back to Him.
According to the Bible, Job was righteous and still suffered. Why? Because God allowed Satan to tempt him. So there we have God allowing it, though not causing it.
Mush of our suffering is simply a result of our living in a fallen world. Adam was essentially cursed to suffer in his work, and Eve to suffer in childbirth, decreed by God as a direct result of sin. Suffering is an unavoidable result of human sin.
I think some of our suffering is directly caused by God though. Not that it is evil. God has spoken volumes to me through suffering of various sorts. That's because my fleshly nature is to avoid Him when things seem fine. Suffering brings us back to God. I've seen plenty of times when God has directly thwarted my personal plans, and I felt I was suffering unjustly. But God works those situations for His purposes, which are ultimately to bring me closer to Him.
I like what shelb5 said about God's purpose. It is not ultimately important to God if we remain single, though we long for a companion, or struggle to pay the bills, or lose a limb, or whatever.
Can God cause suffering and calamity? Of course. it would be awfully hard to read the Bible and not see that. But those sufferings are for a purpose. Study the Israelites. God spent a lot of time making them suffer, for the sole purpose of drawing them back to Him.
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Benedicta00
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rotorhead said:
I agree very much with what you have said.
Suffering to me is a grace even if he did not ordain it but permitted it.
God can bring good out of everything if we unite it to him but it takes trusting that he is working good for his purpose even if we will never see the good this side of heaven. Trust, faith, hope and love brings peace in the midst of our suffering. Giving Satan credit will only bring us hurt, bitterness, doubt and despair.
It is okay to ask God to remove our sufferings, Jesus asked too but we always assent that it is God's will that is done and not our own. If the suffering remains, we know he is with us and he will not forsake us and he will bring good from our pain. Just in the same way he did for Jesus.
Accepting suffering as a grace, putting our trust in God that he loves us, died for us and that he will bring good from our suffering the same way he ordained that Christs suffering brought good is the power of the cross and that gives God true glory.
What power is there in a God that died just so we never have to suffer again? Power is when we are transformed by the cross not just given what ever we ask for, disregarding God's sovereign will over everything.
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Shelb5 said:
I don't know Michelle. I think this is a very self centered view of God's ability to work things according to His purpose. It seems to me that you are saying that God's ability to conform us to the image of His Son is directly dependent on our cooperation. Is that what you believe or do you believe that God sanctifies us despite that we often don't cooperate by handling things in a Godly way, i.e., if we "unite it to Him?"
I mean no offense. I am truly trying to get your perspective on this.
I agree with this. Nicely said.
God bless
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Benedicta00
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Reformationist said:
How come I just knew you were going to question me on this.
What I mean is that God will work things for his good, we can not stop that but how we accept it will effect us.
If we give Satan all the credit we are opening up ourselves to oppression which means we will never be able to have peace and to reap the good from God. We will be a slave to our sufferings, which will lead us into despair.
Andrew sees suffering as a curse that should be rebuked and all that does is just give Satan power to keep you bound to him all the more.
Christ broke his power through suffering in obedience, not rebuking it but embracing God's will and we have that same power when we do not rebuke but humble accept and unite it to Jesus' sufferings on the cross.
The Power of the cross is what breaks the power of Satan and then the good that God IS drawing out of our sufferings can manifest.
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Shelb5 said:How come I just knew you were going to question me on this.
I think I am predictably argumentative.
Okay. I actually completely agree with this. Maybe there is a first time for everything.
Yup. True again. Nicely said. Maybe this is the start of a trend.
God bless
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