How does God feel about those who drink alcohol or smoke marijuana?

angelmuzic · Aug 14, 2003

Well coming from someone who is an ex pot smoker...I am personally against it cause I had no self control........ morals, ethics and values seemed to drop and etc.
I do drink a glass of wine here and there. To me it is about self control........I don't believe in getting drunk for the same reason I don't smoke pot, morals, values and ethics just go down the toilet. And I dont' believe the wine of the new testament was grape juice, if it was...than how could one get drunk?. There are verses in proverbs I believe ( I will look it up and post if you want) that has a positive reaction to a drink. To me "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. " ......Means when one is drunk. Cause I use to get drunk alot....before God got a hold of me

And totaly agree with wine being a mocker when you are drunk on it. and same thing with the beer being a brawler. But that is my belief. Drinking is ok in moderation...self controlled. WHen you let the drink rule you, you got a huge problem. And pot to me is stronger than one drink.... is just a no-no. Not all herbs are meant to be used in such of away. But some of those use pot instead of morphine to kill pain, now that I can am more open about....but just with my previous experience, it is not a good thing to do. Anyways...sorry if I rambled too much....I am very sleepy and tend to be long winded when I need sleep haha.

Palatka44 · Aug 14, 2003

aggie03 said:
I find it interesting that you said that.  Did you know that studies have found that after a single drink your driving and reasoning abilities are impared?  I believe that since studies have deduced this that quantifies as some sort of effect.  A single drink affects you.

I have skimed over a lot of these post and have as yet had seen one to explain the word wine as used in the bible to me. It seems to me that the english bible has made a distinction between wine and strong drink.
Matthew 9:17

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

It seems to me that here the new "wine" is not fermented else when it does it will expand and break the old bottle. This wine was freshly pressed grape juice. Grape juice has all the benifits of wine without the alcohol hince Paul's advice to Timothy to take a little wine for the stomach's sake. The wine at the wedding is new wine.
Today what we know about wine is that it is fermented. Fermented beaverages are not to be used.
Proverbs 23:29-35

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

We are not to even look at it when it is fermented.
The scriptures couldn't be more clearer.
Drinking alcoholic beaverages is a sin, as is drug abuse.

Drugs have medical value as does alcohol. But they both are misused by men.
.

sbbqb7n16 · Aug 15, 2003

Wine in and of itself can't be wrong to God... in fact Jesus Himself drank it, it was an offering to God, and Melchizedek (the shadow of Christ) brought it to Abraham:

Gen*14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

Num*15:5 and you shall prepare wine for the drink offering, one-fourth of a hin, with the burnt offering or for the sacrifice, for each lamb.
19 Num*15:7 and for the drink offering you shall offer one-third of a hin of wine as a soothing aroma to the LORD.
20 Num*15:10 and you shall offer as the drink offering one-half a hin of wine as an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the LORD.

Luke*7:33 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'
Luke*7:34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

John*2:9 When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter *called the bridegroom,
235 John*2:10 and *said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

But also we are to watch out for our brothers who may be offended:

Rom*14:20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
Rom*14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
Rom*14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Rom*14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Timothy was even advised by Paul to drink some wine for health's sake:

1 Tim*5:23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

The main problem comes from addiction to wine and flat out drunkeness:
245 Titus*1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,

So in conclusion: If you want to drink... go ahead as long as no one will be offended and as long as you are of age (we have also been called to obey the authorities in Romans 13). And don't drink in excess as such to become drunk and lose control of your body enabling the possibility of sin (or death).

Oh well my thoughts

Have a great day!

sbbqb7n16 · Aug 15, 2003

Susan said:
He might say something like "may your beer perish with you" and then you would die. Course that's the outside possibility but it would not be worth the risk.

If that's your way of being hospitable to Him, I think that He would either accept it or respectfully decline because He didn't want to at the moment. Your view portrayed of Jesus here doesn't sound very loving. After all it's just a drink...

Mark 7:18 And He *said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

I believe that drinking and pot smoking are both wrong. They cause you to do really stupid things: like I've seen an evolutionist on pot arguing with LouisBooth in the Science, Creation, and Evolution forum. . .lol. . .nothing the evolutionist says makes sense.

That reminds me of what Paul said here:

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

You can do it... but it causes you to do really stupid things. That's a good point.

Human · Aug 15, 2003

I am new to this forum so my apology for any misuse. I believe there have been some very sane comments regarding alcohol - use is sanctioned, particularly in certain instances (see the Prov 30 and I Tim references) BUT abuse of nothing is sanctioned as we are not to let anything have power over us.

re: MJ - We are free to use mj - all the Creation is good and is to be received with thankfulness (ITm 4:4, etc.). Our responsibility is to search out how to uses the creation for our benefit - just because it is good does not mean it will be used in the same way - I do not eat trees but use them to build my house. The Hemp plant is an exceedingly valuable plant with many uses that has been stolen from our community by certain rabid individuals more interested in their economic gain rather than the well being of humans.

Re: Addiction - There is a small percentage of people who are prone to addiction. These people should not participate in that which causes harm (not under the power of any). Most people are very responsible in their use of whatever substance (even chocolate!).

Agape,
Human

Human · Aug 15, 2003

It seems participation with mj is only seen as abuse whereas alcohol participation is seen as both use and abuse. I am uncertain this inconsistency of thought has crept into Christian's minds (culturally implanted paradigm by the world??).

re: Legality
Remember Alcohol was illegal 80 years ago including beer so I have been told. MJ was legal 80 years ago. These type of prohibitionary laws are merely the artifice of men (LSD was legal 40 years ago). And they are constantly changing. These laws do NOT reflect the laws of God but arrogance of social engineers who choose to suppress our society for their own political gain. The legal issues here are MUCH different than for genuine crime (=violence - physical, property, emotional, etc.)

re: Social Drinking
I rarely drink but occasionally have a beer or two - no problems - never has been and don't have clue why people make such a big deal of it. My only guess is that a small % of the population have addictive genetics to certain substances. These people need to work with their tolerances (I work with mine in other areas).

These are my thoughts/experiences - hopefully help a little.

agape,
Human

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Aug 15, 2003

It's amazing how it goes round in circles isn't it.

It's already been demonstrated that:

(a) the Passover wine of the Eucharist cannot have been unfermented, as grapes are harvested in Summer and Autumn, and the unfermented juice could not possibly be kept fresh until Spring

(b) At Cana the reference is clearly to alcoholic wine because the talk is about how the guests would be too inebriated to tell the difference between good and bad.

And yet people still try to claim that all this wine was unfermented.

Beer's my favourite, followed by whisky. Then red wine and cider, followed by rum and brandy. If Jesus turns up, I'll probably take him down the Sheaf View for a couple.

Lion of Narnia · Aug 17, 2003

Folks, I'll admit that I haven't read through all of this thread, but for those of you who think new wine is unfermented grape juice, some basic biochemistry.

I have some experience in home brewing, wine fermentation is very similar except you're using grape juice instead of malt as a base and the yeast strains allow higher alchohol potency over the full fermentation period With a high enough specific gravity (sugar content) and wine yeast, one can brew malt to wine potency (barley wine)

As Fr. Robert Capon (Episcopalian) pointed out in his wonderfull The Supper of the Lamb all one has to do to to start grapes fermenting is to press them. Sugar on the inside, yeast naturaly on the outside. Something underhanded has to be done to stop it's natual course (which they did not have the knowledge to do in the ancient world).

Now our ancestors knowing the kinship between bread and wine leavening would delibertly "spark" the next wine batch with the leavings of the previous batch--but it was not necessary to start fermentation, only to try to insure consistent quality rather than rely on the ever present but erratic wild yeast strains.

To make this simple, yeast fermentation of grape juice proceeds fairly quickly, producing three products: 1) taste & aroma esters 2) carbon dioxide-Christ's metaphor of new wine in old skins directly relates to this (old skins are already stretched out-new wine will quickly burst old skins--and undoubtedly fermentation is occuring) and 3) Alchohol. Depending on variables of starting yeast concentration to, specific gravity, and temperature, alchohol production follows on a fairly predictable curve. In no more than 3 days alchohol strength is going to be about 1 to 1.5% per volume. In two weeks were are talking about 3.5 to 4.5%--and wine is not drinkable at this stage unless one is desperate (too harsh and raw and way too yeasty). Now, typical ancient world practice was to allow wine to mellow about 4-5 months before drinking. This is the new wine ancient writers talked about . It is 8.5 to 9.5% alchohol per volume.

Now it was pretty universal to cut wine with water (greeks, jews, romans all did it); to not cut was to be considered a boor and probable drunk. Typical water to wine ratios was was anywear from 1 to 1 to 3 to 1. Considering the water sanition of the period, watered wine was far safer and healthier to drink than water alone.

Now, wine will inevitibly turn to vinegar, starting around 2 years, no more than 3. It is considered old wine at that point, but it's alcohol content is not appreciably higher than new wine. In fact, wine was still considered new to one year of age. However, wine and vinegar are refered to by distinct words in the NT so there should be no confusion between the two.

Again, no fresh grapes in the middle east & medditeranian in spring, they had to be drinking wine.

Hope this helps

-Robert

Palatka44 · Aug 17, 2003

Lion of Narnia said:
Sugar on the inside, yeast naturaly on the outside. Something underhanded has to be done to stop it's natual course (which they did not have the knowledge to do in the ancient world).

Robert;
You have displayed a real knowledge of wine making but have not taken into account of human nature in regards to the ingestion of an alcoholic beaverage.
Just this past Friday night I went to a NFL football game to watch the Miami Dolphins take on the Jacksonville Jaguars with my 14 year old son.
I was quickly made aware that that is no place for children. We arrived at 5:30 the game started at 7:45. Thirty minutes before they allowed us to our seats (6:00) the Bud Zone bar in the stadium was already packed. When we were allowed to get to our seats the seats remained empty untill about 7:15 and the bar crowd begain to filter to their seats. Most had brought their 2 bottles of beer with them some brought 1 some 3 bottles. As the game wore on the beer consumned was staggering. The language became harsh and the noise from those drunks became louder, and my head from just the smell and the noise was about to explode. :sick:

The stadium announced last call for beer sells at the start of the 3rd quarter. At the close of half time activites the vendors came around and oh the throng that invaded the beer man. Some bought 3 more bottles at $4.00 each.

This after they got out of their seats and went back to the Bud Zone for a half time binge.
My son and I left at the start of the 4th quarter. Good thing too, can you just imagine the bumper car rally after the game? My son said to me, "Now I know why we like watching a professional game at home." We go to the local high school games regularly and enjoy them live because no alcohol is served.
How many of these men and women were christian at the NFL game? I haven't a clue but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them will say that they are. In the seats to the left of us was a couple, in their 50's I'd guess, that did not drink and had arrived at their seats at the same time I and my son did. To our right a couple had arrived at their seats at about 7:15. They each had 2 beers in their hands. The row below us everyone in it each had a number of beers with them as they arrived.
Those of us that arrived to our seats at 6:00 must have been those that did not drink, although I can't atest to each one that was there at 6 was not, but for the sake of average I would say close to 500 had seated early. Those that arrived at 7:15 till game start had filled the stadium to about 70,000!

You see once you have one apparently you can't stop at just one.

While it is true that the ancients did not know how to stop the fermention prosess they did know when not to drink it.

Proverbs 23:29-35

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Lion of Narnia said:
Again, no fresh grapes in the middle east & medditeranian in spring, they had to be drinking wine.

Hope this helps
-Robert

Matthew 9:17

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

With the evedence of Proverbs 23 it is safe to believe that the people of that time new what to look for in wine and that new wine is not intoxicating but the older it gets the more alcohol content it has. It just doesn't fit that God's Word would warn us not to drink it while it is fermented and when The Living Word walked among us would do the other. Kind of "Do as I say, not as I do" phylosiphy isn't it.

Human · Aug 17, 2003

Paltka - Sadly human beings are not always responsible (regardless of whether they use any substance or not). That is reality and we need to adjust accordingly.

HOWEVER, to correct your misapprehension that human beings cannot stop at one, that is simply not true. I occasionally drink a beer and usually it is only one. Occasionally I have two - I am NEVER loud or belligerant. I know MANY!! people who experience the same as I do (none of the are sports fans - maybe your hanging out with the wrong crowd...;-)). People who act irresponsibly would tend to act like that without alcohol - that simply tends to bring out more of who they are (I assume you made the distinction between people simply blowing off a little steam at a sporting events (cheaper than a shink!!)).

The Bible clearly teaches that we are free to use all substances (you know the texts as well as I so I won't repeat them) as we determine their benefit before the Lord but states that we are not to be brought under the power of any - being loud and belligerant and becoming addicted are when responsible use has turned into sin. This we are called to avoid.

agape,
Human

Lion of Narnia · Aug 17, 2003

Palatka44 said:
Robert;
You have displayed a real knowledge of wine making but have not taken into account of human nature in regards to the ingestion of an alcoholic beaverage.

Matthew 9:17

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

With the evedence of Proverbs 23 it is safe to believe that the people of that time new what to look for in wine and that new wine is not intoxicating but the older it gets the more alcohol content it has. It just doesn't fit that God's Word would warn us not to drink it while it is fermented and when The Living Word walked among us would do the other. Kind of "Do as I say, not as I do" phylosiphy isn't it.

My adoptive father was a severe alcoholic. So is my step brother. Working food service for many years, I had more than my fill of drunks in my face. Roughly 9-12% of the american populace has mild to severe problems with alcohol. Which means most can control what they drink if they drink. Such as myself.

Argue with the Creator of the vine (and the yeast) with how fast alcohol is created. We have gobs of writings showing when the ancients thought wine was fit to drink---and freshly pressed wasn't it. After three days (especially in the warm middle east) you will have an intoxicating beverage. Give it the time from September squeezing to March-April Passover you will have that 8.5-9.5% alcohol content I wrote about.

Jesus was a Jew, He would have used wine all his life, at the family table and in religious ceremonies. Ben Sirac (Ecclesiasticus in the Deutero Cannonicals) said that the standard peasant's daily diet was bread, cheese, on good days a bit of salted fish (meat only for feast days), but always wine.

"Ecclesiasticus 9:15
A new friend is as new wine: it shall grow old, and thou shalt drink it with pleasure"

Ecclesiasticus 31:31
Fire trieth hard iron: so wine drunk to excess shall rebuke the hearts of the proud.

Ecclesiasticus 31:32
Wine taken with sobriety is equal lire to men: if thou drink it moderately, thou shalt be sober.

Ecclesiasticus 31:35
Wine was created from the beginning to make men joyful, and not to make them drunk

Ecclesiasticus 31:38
Wine drunken with excess raiseth quarrels; and wrath, and many ruins."
-Duoay-Reims

-Robert

NotTroy · Aug 18, 2003

As has been mentioned before, the verses regarding the laws that Levitical priest's had to follow do not specifically apply to Jesus as He was NOT considered a Levitical preist.

"You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek" (Ps. 110:4).

If He had been considered a Levitical preist than we could not call Him both preist and king because Levitical preists could not be kings. As we all know Jesus is King in both the spiritual sense and in the normal sense we would think of it since He is the heir to David's throne. Putting up verses to support your argument is fine and I know there are many out there that both sides could use, but please try to keep the verses in context when you use them.

I will say that personally I lean toward the "moderation is fine" side of the argument.

Palatka44 · Aug 19, 2003

Human said:
Occasionally I have two - I am NEVER loud or belligerant. I know MANY!! people who experience the same as I do (none of the are sports fans - maybe your hanging out with the wrong crowd...;-)).

When an Officer pulls over a suspected driver under the influence and ask "Have you been drinking?" the usual reply is I've only had two or three. Funny isn't it that those that defend their sinful habbits must justify moderation.
Does one moderatly commit muder, worship idols, covet, commit adultery, or partialy honor father or mother?

Human said:
NEVER, MANY!!

Oh by the way quit yelling at me!
As far as to the content of the crowd that I hang with is none of you business. But for the sake of argument In this crowd was that of myself and my 14 year old son.

Palatka44 · Aug 19, 2003

Lion of Narnia said:
My adoptive father was a severe alcoholic. So is my step brother. Working food service for many years, I had more than my fill of drunks in my face. Roughly 9-12% of the american populace has mild to severe problems with alcohol. Which means most can control what they drink if they drink. Such as myself.

Argue with the Creator of the vine (and the yeast) with how fast alcohol is created. We have gobs of writings showing when the ancients thought wine was fit to drink---and freshly pressed wasn't it. After three days (especially in the warm middle east) you will have an intoxicating beverage. Give it the time from September squeezing to March-April Passover you will have that 8.5-9.5% alcohol content I wrote about.

Jesus was a Jew, He would have used wine all his life, at the family table and in religious ceremonies. Ben Sirac (Ecclesiasticus in the Deutero Cannonicals) said that the standard peasant's daily diet was bread, cheese, on good days a bit of salted fish (meat only for feast days), but always wine.

"Ecclesiasticus 9:15
A new friend is as new wine: it shall grow old, and thou shalt drink it with pleasure"

Ecclesiasticus 31:31
Fire trieth hard iron: so wine drunk to excess shall rebuke the hearts of the proud.

Ecclesiasticus 31:32
Wine taken with sobriety is equal lire to men: if thou drink it moderately, thou shalt be sober.

Ecclesiasticus 31:35
Wine was created from the beginning to make men joyful, and not to make them drunk

Ecclesiasticus 31:38
Wine drunken with excess raiseth quarrels; and wrath, and many ruins."
-Duoay-Reims

-Robert

Give me Bible Robert. Even so why must a christian think he has to defend his sin? If it is not a sin to you and are not under conviction of it, why must you defend it so? And why would one that has the experince that you do even consider anything alcoholic as a viable beverage? Alcoholic drinks are so offencive and dosen't the Word say if something offends the weaker and I must admit that I am weak, that we are to abstain?

SystemOfADOWN · Nov 11, 2003

http://www.nirvana-shop.com/untoldstory/#INDEX

my recent post on it being a sin to smoke marijuana..

------
i don't know if you've seen, but before I've posted here and I current have a topic in the teen guys section about this..

Christians like to associate 2 things with marijuana to assure themselves that they are "bad'. This doesn't apply to all christians, by the way, so don't say im stereotyping, because I myself am a Christian who loves the Lord with all my heart.

Those 2 things are legal issues, and drunkenness. The legal issues are obvious, in the united states, it's illegal. Some states allow medicinal marijuana but you have to have a certain card, have a doctor recommend it, etc. Alaska legalized the posession of under 4 ounces. Then again, Canada decriminalized it, making it about the same as running a red light (off on a warning, small fine next..

Recently, Marc Emery (calls himself a big activist in the canadian community on legalizing pot) was on the steps of a police station, and he passed around a screwdriver sized joint, with cops everywhere. They did nothing. I don't know the exact laws in Holland but I know that some places in there like Amsterdam legalized the use, but it's controlled (5g sale at one time to one person, must smoke outside, away from people who might disagree with it's use, etc.) The US government legalized ALCOHOL, which kills HUNDREDS upon THOUSANDS of people every year. Why? Because they make money on it. Ever wonder where those high taxes on alcohol goes? Exactly. People don't want to go through the trouble to brew alcohol, so they buy it. Growing marijuana is easy, given you have the right supplies - that's why the government wants it gone - they can't make money on it. Simple. IF they could control that, they would obviously grow fields upon fields and sell it way over the open-air market price it is now. It's all about greed. US government = greed. We are told to obey the laws of the land, but Jesus says give to ceasar's what is ceasars and to God's what is God's, and I know there are passages that say to disobey unjust or corrupt laws..

Anyway, on to the sin. The bible does NOT talk of being high as a sin. Being drunk is a sin basically because it lowers inhibitions, etc. Marijuana is such a safer drug. I do smoke pot, but i buy rarely. I don't get it for free either. Once i have it, maybe a little here, little there. I don't "indulge" on being high all of the time. I show control and moderation. There's a link that somewhat explains some passages in the bible when it talks about marijuana (cannabis, kaneh-bosm) and the laws of the land ... but it does go off on a limb once and awhile, check it out.

http://www.equalrights4all.org/religious/bible.htm

What i can suggest is that as long as your relationship with the Lord stays intact and great and you can show control and won't become addicted, I feel it's fine. It really does depend on the person. Will power, addiction potention, relationship with the Lord - all come into play when making this kind of decision.

I personally just finished about 2g i had for about 2 weeks..people smoke 5-10g DAILY. it took me over 2 weeks..and i don't have the urge to buy more, or smoke.

and if you want to ELIMINATE ALL health hazards associated with smoking, grow your own and make cannabutter and use it with brownies, toast, cookies, whatever. You can also vaporize it, which eliminates all smoking hazards. There ARE ways around the smoking part..

I suggest EVERYONE who reads this thread to read this site:

http://www.nirvana-shop.com/untoldstory/#INDEX

The untold story..quick read, good information.

To sum it up, it is NOT a sin, but go with your heart. if you feel bad for doing it, don't do it. If you can control it and it doesn't affect your relationship with God, go right ahead. The biggest point i must stress is the relationship with God...don't let ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD affect that!
------

MikeMcK · Nov 11, 2003

Palatka44 said:
When an Officer pulls over a suspected driver under the influence and ask "Have you been drinking?" the usual reply is I've only had two or three. Funny isn't it that those that defend their sinful habbits must justify moderation.

I'm new here so please forgive me if this has been covered already, but moderation is relative.

I'm 6'4" and about 240 lbs so I can drink "two or three" or even four (depending on what I'm drinking) and still be within the limits of moderation. On the other hand, my girlfriend is 5'3" and weighs less than half of what I do.

If she were to drink two or three, chances are, she'd become inebriated very quickly.

colossi3 · Nov 11, 2003

Gerry said:
What does your heart tell you?

Does it harm your body which is the Temple of the Holy Spirit if you are a Christian?

colossi3: The physical body is no temple - it's worm food. Jesus further said that it's what comes out of the mouth that defiles the man. The body of Jesus comprised of believers is the holy [spiritual ]temple.

Does it edify?

colossi3: Is the substance OR the use of it edifying?

Does it cause a brother to stumble?

colossi3: depends on whether the bro is yet carnal - under tha law. Those who are under the law are offended by all physical/carnal sin.

Is it a good witness and testimony to non Christians?

colossi3: see above

If Jesus came to your house and sat on the sofa, would you offer Him a drink and a joint?

colossi3: Probably a glass of wine.

These are questions you must let your conscience answer.

colossi3: Conscience is better off after enlightenment of the Holy Spirit

colossi3 · Nov 11, 2003

Julie said:
If there is doubt, throw it out.

If you have to question something it is probably
wrong in the first place.

If I saw someone smokeing or drinking my first reaction would not be 'they must be Christians'.
Julie

colossi3: I know what you mean. Onthe other hand, outward judgment sees the Lord Jesus as a glutton and a drunkard, so due care must be excersised here. He hated people who made outward judgment..

1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Human · Nov 12, 2003

Collosi3

This is a SUPERB recognition of the shortcomings of too narrowly using Paul's statements - clearly Jesus eating with Publicans and sinners was an appearance of evil. Rather we must, as Jesus did, take the concept and apply it but not to the detriment - God's law is not meant to be to our detriment. If the government fabricates laws to our detriment, we are not to follow them (if they tell us to turn Jews in to be exterminated, we do NOT follow them - even though many Christians probably did because of their immature reading of the scriptures and failure to grasp the fullness of Christ in the Spirit.

Also, great kudos and blessing to System - you have hit the nails on the heads with these superbs bits of information and some quality discussion.

It is time for Christians to cast out fear with regard to our Creator's creations.

Even more so -

How shall we respond to those authorities that would engage in violence against and attack with the sword local peaceful, productive adults who occasionally choose to use cannabis with the sword, place them in chains, steal their assets, lock them cages for years obviously destroying their lives and the lives of their families including children, friends, and communities?

It is incumbent on Christians to be lights and salt - to be Peacemakers - to end this hideous violence against peaceful adults. Thanks to System and Collosi for their ministry here.

Engaged in Peace in Christ,
Human

colossi3 · Nov 12, 2003

Julie said:
New Wine

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster , and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

Joel 1:10-12 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

Isaiah 24:7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

Proverbs 3:9-10 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine .

Nehemiah 10:37-39 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.

Nehemiah 13:5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine , and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.

If someone wants to drink wine thats up to them, but don't use the excuse that The Lord Jesus Christ drank wine to make you feel its ok for you to. New wine or the cup of the Lord is grape juice according to the Bible.
Julie

colossi3: I don't do drugs, and would caution anyone even sniffing around them: they have destroyed so many lives already. As to wine, it is a drink I use but don't encourage anyone else to. I do have a question for you: how would you interpret the following verse?

Mark 2:22 "And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new will burst the bottles and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles."

How does God feel about those who drink alcohol or smoke marijuana?

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