Is baptism necessary to be saved?

heb12-2 · Aug 13, 2003

Gentlemen,
Both of you keep using the Blood against Baptism. Here is just a sample of what both of you keep saying:

sbbqb7n16 said:
You are bought by the Blood of Jesus Christ and not with water. And it is by His Blood that you are saved not by baptism.

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
blood is what the H.S. uses to wash us to cover sin once and for all I belief

Now what you both keep failing to see is that I believe in the power in the Blood of Jesus Christ. You must understand that to argue for the Blood does not nullify baptism. But the scriptures teach that we contact the Blood through baptism.

"Blue Bible Dude", you quoted the example of the Israelites applying the blood on their doorposts. But HOW did they apply it? with the Hyssop right? (Ex. 12:22). If those Israelites had your logic, they would've argued like this:

"Hey, you fellow Israelites, don't you know that it is by the blood that you'll be saved, not with hyssop.
So since we we'll be saved by the blood and not with the hyssop, it's not necessary to use the hyssop. Now if you choose to use the hyssop, then you'll be blessed, and if you don't eventually use the hyssop, then man, you'll be missing out.
But now if you use the hyssop so that the Lord will pass over your first born, then you'll be practicing a works salvation.
By the way, since faith in the blood is what will spare our first born, then they're already saved, even before you apply the blood. So the hyssop really isn't necessary.

That would be utterly ludicrous, but it is the same logic that you are arguing against baptism.

[size=+2]BAPTISM and the BLOOD[/size]

Both are "for the remission of sins":
BLOOD "for the remission of sins" (Mt. 26:28)
BAPTISM "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38)

Both "wash away" sins:
BLOOD (Rev. 1:5)
BAPTISM (Ac. 22:16)

Both save:
BLOOD (Rom. 5:9)
BAPTISM (1 Pet. 3:21; Mk. 16:16)

Both cleanse the conscience:
BLOOD (Heb. 9:14)
BAPTISM (1 Pet. 3:21)

Baptism no more nullifies the blood than the hyssop did for the Isaraelites.
Baptism no more nullifies grace than the hyssop did for the Israelites.
Baptism is no more of a "works salvation" than the hyssop was for the Israelites.

HOW do you apply the Blood? Through BAPTISM!

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 13, 2003

heb12-2 said:
No one is denying the work of the Holy Spirit. The question is HOW does the HOLY SPIRIT work in conversion?

You quoted verses that show that the Holy Spirit would "convince". Again, the question is HOW does he convince? What TOOL does he use to "convince"? Answer: the WORD. Eph. 6:17, "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God".

Are you not "convinced" of this? Look at Titus 1:9, "Holding fast the faithful WORD as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to CONVINCE the gainsayers."

That verse shows HOW the Spirit CONVINCES through the WORD

The question is not WHY we need "convinced". The question again is HOW are we convinced? You answered that question yourself when you quoted Rom. 1:16, The POWER is in the GOSPEL. The WORD is the tool that the Spirit uses to "convince" the blind.

"For the WORD of God is QUICK, and POWERFUL, and SHARPER than any TWOEDGED SWORD, PIERCING even to the DIVIDING ASUNDER of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a DISCERNER of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb 4:12).

Now That's Powerful!

Agreeded

I missed the part in that verse that says, "by baptism that no one saw". That's your own addition to the word.

do you see yourself put into one body with other people???
according to 1 cor 12:13
2cor 5:7

Again, HOW does the Holy Spirit do what is said in 1 Cor. 12:13?
Remember Eph. 6:17? The WORD is the Sword of the Spirit.

Convincing Yes Baptizing I do not see that

Compare the following passages:
"Except a man be born again" (Jn. 3:3) Born again how? by "water and of the Spirit" (Jn. 3:5).

John 3:5 Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water even the Spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 ( But this spoke he of the Spirit, which they that beloieve on him should recieve: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified

This makes it flow better

Now compare the Spirit's work in being "born again" with 1 Pet. 1:22, "being born again....by the WORD of God".

Did you catch that? One verse says "born again" by "the Spirit" and the other says "born again...by the WORD". How do you reconcile that? Well...again, the Spirit uses the WORD to "convince" us to be "born again". Simple.

yes it is

Now bring that back to 1 Cor. 12:13. It's just the same. The Spirit uses the WORD to "convince" us to be BAPTIZED. That's all 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying.

Not "convinced" yet? Watch this!

In Ac. 2:37, "When they HEARD this, they were PRICKED in their heart".
HEARD what? What pricked them? The WORD that Peter preached to them, right? So the WORD pricked their heart like Heb. 4:12 says it can. Then they said, "What shall we do?" Peter said, "Repent and be BAPTIZED for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38).

Now stay with me on this point. Watch what it says next! "Then they that gladly received his WORD were BAPTIZED and the same day there were ADDED unto them about three thousand souls" (Ac 2:41). Notice that souls were ADDED by being BAPTIZED, then pay attention to verse 47, "And the Lord ADDED to the CHURCH daily such as should be saved". The CHURCH is Christ's BODY (Col. 1:18).

Now isn't that powerful?!!! What did we learn? The Spirit "pricked" their heart through the WORD preached to them, and "convinced" them to be BAPTIZED "for the remission of their sins", and when they were BAPTIZED, The Lord ADDED them to the CHURCH which is His BODY.

That's exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 teaches. Now read it very carefully. See how it harmonizes with the scriptures above?

agreed but there is not water baptism here Just spirit baptism that puts us into Christ

Yes, we walk by FAITH and not by sight. How does FAITH come?
"FAITH cometh by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD of God" (Rom. 10:17). And yes FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for. How is that faithful HOPE produced? You guessed it: Through the WORD (Col. 1:5) The Spirit's sword is powerful, isn't it?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without A PREACHER?" (Ro 10:14).

agreed that is how the H.S. does one of its seven works of the Spirit

heb12-2 · Aug 14, 2003

[size=+2]Not By Faith Only[/size]

Many claim that all a person needs to do in order to be saved is believe. Is that what the Bible teaches?

It is true that we cannot be saved without faith (Heb. 11:6; Jn.3:18; 8:24). But faith is NOT the ONLY thing necessary. The only passage in the Bible that mentions faith only is James 2:24 and it says, not by faith only. Notice what the rest of that chapter says concerning faith without works.

Faith Only:

Does not save (Jas. 2:14)
Does not profit (Jas. 2:15-16)
Is dead (Jas. 2:17, 20, 26)
Cannot be shown (Jas. 2:18)
Is no more than the demons have (Jas. 2:19)
Did not justify Abraham (Jas. 2:21-22)
Is imperfect (Jas.2:22)
Is not accounted for righteousness (Jas. 2:23)
Does not justify (Jas. 2:24-25)

The whole idea of James 2 is not saying that faith is not important, but that obedience is also necessary.

He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him (Heb. 5:9)

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 14, 2003

James 2 :17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead[carnal christian or unbeliever], being alone[separtated from God]. 18 Yea, a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by thy works.

.....................This is for Justification for men NOT GOD ................

......................When did Abraham have Faith................

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, and heirs with him of the same promise.......ect

lets look at Abram when he believed in Gen 15:6 and according to Romans 4:5-6 and eph 2:8-9 there is not works involved in salvation but only as a servant to Christ according to 1 cor 7:20-24.........

When did Abram work to prove to men not God according to Scripture.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect[mature].

How many years is that about 30 years

Gen 15:6 abram believed
Gen 22:10 Abram work to show faith

think you need to relook at your scripture

sbbqb7n16 · Aug 14, 2003

heb12-2 said:
[size=+2]Which Do You Believe?[/size]

(A) He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized or,
(B) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (See Mark 16:16)

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

What does He say then about what happens to those who believe and aren't baptized?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

What about other Scripture?

Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Jesus even says this...

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Apparently Jesus must then be saying that belief is the requirement for forgiveness. There are too many verses in the NT just saying "believe" for me to post them all... so I just did John some from Acts and some Romans. Do a search and then see how many times these NT authors must have "forgotten" to write "and be baptized" as a requirement for salvation.

So my answer: Both A and B and true.

(A) Baptism is not for remission of sins or,
(B) Baptism is for remission of sins. (See Acts 2:38)

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This verse never specifically says baptism is for remission of sins... how do you know it doesn't come from the repentance? Let's see what else Scripture says... starting with later in Acts:

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Here we just see it told to believe... but to be baptized is left out. If you notice down a little further they are baptized... but after they have recieved the Holy Spirit... from which you would have us to believe according to Acts 2:38 is impossible. These people recieved the promised gift before they were baptized... how does that work? Apparently Acts 2:38 must not be referring to a water baptism after all.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Here I give these verses again, because I intend to prove that salvation is not through water baptism; forgiveness is not through water baptism: it is through the shed blood of Christ.

So my answer: A. It is rather the blood of Christ as according to Heb 9:22.

(A) Baptism doth also not save us or,
(B) Baptism doth also now save us. (See 1 Pet. 3:21)

1 Pet 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Now let's see that verse in context:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1 Pet 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1 Pet 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1 Pet 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Pet 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

I believe that Peter is here talking about a baptising your own heart with repentance. See where he says "not the removal of dirt from your flesh"? He then says "but an appeal to God for a good conscience." Water baptism is a picture of the internal event. And water removes dirt from the flesh. Here Peter is saying that you're not saved because water removed dirt from your flesh. But rather that by repentance (meaning turning to Jesus Christ) you have appealed to God for a good conscience. Now what can clean your conscience: water? No....

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
25 Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Yet again we see it is through the blood of Christ... not water, that your conscience is cleaned.

So my answer: B but not water baptism... baptism of repentance in turning to Jesus Christ.

(A) One does not wash away his sins in baptism or,
(B) One washes away his sins in baptism. (See Acts 22:16)

Acts 22:16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

This verse doesn't say that baptism washed away your sins. It says that calling on His name does.

So my answer: A... calling on the name of Jesus Christ does.

(A) God does not operate in baptism in removing sins or,
(B) God operates in baptism in removing sins. (See Col. 2:11-12)

Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Let's see them in context:

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So you were also circumcised (poss. again) by Jesus too? If you also would have read a couple verses more you see that our debt has been removed and nailed to the cross (past tense). It's done already! Baptism doesn't change that... our certificate of debt was cancelled because of the cross not the water.

So my answer: C God already removed them at the cross!

(A) One has the new life before baptism or,
(B) One is raised from baptism to the new life. (See Rom. 6:3-4)

I'll put this passage in context:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

And so then we are literally dead too? At what point were we to die with Christ? At baptism (you would say v3)? or the cross (I would say v6)? You die when you're crucified, but you are dead regardless of whether you are buried or not... and "he who has died is freed from sin." See also in v5 Paul says "in likeness of death" not "likeness of burial."

So my answer: C We are dead to sin and alive to Christ because of the cross... not water.

(A) One puts on Christ before baptized or,
(B) One puts on Christ when he is baptized into Christ. (See Gal. 3:26-27)

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Baptized into water? or into Christ? And does Paul ever specifically say that baptism is what clothes... or does he just say that they have been baptized and clothed themselves with Christ (2 separate events)?

Do you see v26? You are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. not through baptism... you become His son through faith not water.

So my answer: C not enough information to tell...

sbbqb7n16 · Aug 14, 2003

heb12-2 said:
HOW do you apply the Blood? Through BAPTISM!

I don't believe that...simply put.

WE don't ever apply the blood ourselves through anything. Jesus applies the blood to our hearts... not us.

I believe that it is through faith not baptism.

And for your hyssop example:

Ex 12:22 "You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning.
Ex 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.

Does the Lord say "when He sees the blood spread with the hyssop on the lintel and on the two doorposts" or "when He sees the blood" ? That's on a side note: here's the real interesting thing. What is hyssop? According to my online dictionary

:

1 : a plant used in purificatory sprinkling rites by the ancient Hebrews
2 : a European mint (Hyssopus officinalis) that has highly aromatic and pungent leaves and is sometimes used as a potherb

A plant. Not water. A plant. And a tree is a plant. The cross was made of wood from a tree. The cross was made of a plant!!

[size=+1]The blood must be applied by the cross![/size]

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 14, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
James 2 :17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead[carnal christian or unbeliever], being alone[separtated from God]. 18 Yea, a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by thy works.

.....................This is for Justification for men NOT GOD ................

......................When did Abraham have Faith................

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, and heirs with him of the same promise.......ect

lets look at Abram when he believed in Gen 15:6 and according to Romans 4:5-6 and eph 2:8-9 there is not works involved in salvation but only as a servant to Christ according to 1 cor 7:20-24.........

When did Abram work to prove to men not God according to Scripture.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect[mature].

How many years is that about 30 years

Gen 15:6 abram believed
Gen 22:10 Abram work to show faith

think you need to relook at your scripture

wow

CrossMovement · Aug 14, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
wow

Tell me only one person who has been saved without being baptize and I'll still have the answer for you. One person

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 14, 2003

CrossMovement said:
Tell me only one person who has been saved without being baptize and I'll still have the answer for you. One person

people believing in man baptism by water ..........matt 7:21-23

people believing that the water of H.S. baptises us into Christ without any one seeing it 2 cor 5:7 1 cor 12:13

CrossMovement · Aug 15, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
people believing in man baptism by water ..........matt 7:21-23

people believing that the water of H.S. baptises us into Christ without any one seeing it 2 cor 5:7 1 cor 12:13

Personnaly we need Both of them , Water and Holy Sprit

Holy spirit is when you accept him as your personal savior . The baptism in the water is the proof that you have given your life to Christ .

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 15, 2003

agreed but some think water baptism is for salvation

and that wrong

dldjr86 · Aug 15, 2003

I must say that in Acts 22:16, that the verse indicates that salvation comes after baptism, even if you use the arguments have been used: baptism, washing away of sins, calling on the name of the Lord. So, even with that argument, you must be baptized to recieve salvation.

dldjr86 · Aug 15, 2003

How can you add to the scriptures with Mark 16:16. The verse does not say that he that believes and is saved shall be baptized. Adding to and takeing away from scriptures is punishable. Take a look at Galatians 1:8-9.

dldjr86 · Aug 15, 2003

Not enough information to see if baptism puts you into the body of Christ!?! Where do you get that?

CrossMovement · Aug 15, 2003

dldjr86 said:
Not enough information to see if baptism puts you into the body of Christ!?! Where do you get that?

not enough information ??? , read this.

The baptism itself does not bring salvation; salvation inspires the water baptism. It should be the first thing we do after we are "born again." Those who have received Jesus in their hearts should desire to follow Him in this ordinance. Jesus Himself came to John the Baptist to receive His water baptism because He was to take the sins of the world at His death. These sins would be washed away by God for those who put their trust in Him

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (John 1:32-34).

The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a crisis experience just as our initial conversion experience was. We cannot be gradually baptized in the Holy Spirit, just as we cannot be gradually baptized in water. Certainly we can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one day that "filling" will spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost. Many believe they need not ask for this experience because they think they receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. While this is true in the sense that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it. "...How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13).

Many people have been "born again" and have the Holy Spirit working in their lives, but have never received the baptism in the Holy Ghost which equips them for service and gives them the power needed to overcome in Christ. "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence...But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:5 and 8). If you, as a Christian, have not known the power of God in being able to overcome sin, to witness and to know God in His fullness, then you need to ask God for the baptism in the Holy Ghost. There were also Christians in Paul's day who did not know about the power that was available to them. We find this recorded in Acts 19:2-6:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

This Scripture clearly shows us there is more than one kind of baptism. These Christians had received water baptism, but not the Holy Ghost baptism until Paul laid his hands on them and prayed. We also see that the gifts of the Holy Spirit accompany this baptism, as they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

aggie03 · Aug 15, 2003

CrossMovement said:
not enough information ??? , read this.

Ok

.

The baptism itself does not bring salvation; salvation inspires the water baptism.

I would really love for you to show me a verse that states this specifically. Is there a verse in the the Bible that states explicitly that salvation inspires baptism? If there is, I would love to learn about it, if there isn't, then this is a belief that is outside of Biblical teaching.

It should be the first thing we do after we are "born again."

I would say that we can't be born again without being baptized for the remission of our sins. Let's take a very close look at what the text of John 3 actually says:

John 3:4-5 ASV

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

In Jesus's reply to Nicodemus He is talking about how we are to be reborn. His answer: of water and the Spirit. He does not say just believe. Baptism is instrumental in our being reborn, in fact, it does not happen without it!

Those who have received Jesus in their hearts should desire to follow Him in this ordinance.

What exactly does it mean to receive Jesus into your heart? This is a very common expression, but very few people can actually tell me what it means.

Jesus Himself came to John the Baptist to receive His water baptism because He was to take the sins of the world at His death. These sins would be washed away by God for those who put their trust in Him

It is true that Christ would take the sins of the worls upon Him at His death, but this is not at all the reason why He was baptized.

Matthew 3:15 ASV

But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

This was something that God had planned to happen. This was the reason that John had been sent in the first place, that all righteouness might be fulfilled and the things about which the prophets spoke should come to pass.

The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a crisis experience just as our initial conversion experience was.

Please define what you mean by crisis experience. And I am also curious about this: from the way that you have this worded you are separating baptism of the Holy Spirit and conversion. So do you believe that no baptism occurs in the salvation process? Do you believe that you are baptized with the Holy Spirit before you are "saved", or after?

Certainly we can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one day that "filling" will spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost.

This smacks of man's teaching, man's traditions and man's thoughts. Where is this mentioned specifically in the scriptures?

Many believe they need not ask for this experience because they think they receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. While this is true in the sense that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it.

I would really like to hear your definitions of baptism. Baptism simply means to immerse. Here you are saying that someone is immersed in the Holy Spirit when they believe, but that's not completely what needs to happen. I just don't understand any of the points that you are trying to make here at all

.

Many people have been "born again" and have the Holy Spirit working in their lives, but have never received the baptism in the Holy Ghost which equips them for service and gives them the power needed to overcome in Christ.

Again, you cannot be born again without being baptized for the remission of your sins. This is not me saying this, but God:

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence...But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:5 and 8). If you, as a Christian, have not known the power of God in being able to overcome sin, to witness and to know God in His fullness, then you need to ask God for the baptism in the Holy Ghost. There were also Christians in Paul's day who did not know about the power that was available to them. We find this recorded in Acts 19:2-6:

I'm glad that you've brought this passage up. Let's see exactly what it does say about this topic:

Acts 19:2-6 ASV

and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given. (3) And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John's baptism. (4) And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus. (5) And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This scripture shows that there are two types of baptisms: one of John and one of Christ. When they were not baptized in the name of Christ, Paul had them immediately baptized because they were not yet children of God, they hadn't been reborn. It's also important to note that they did not receive any spiritual gifts directly after they were baptized, but rather when Paul laid his hands on them. That's because this is how people were given spiritual gifts, like the ones mentioned here. It was necessary for an Apostle of Christ Jesus to lay their hands on an individual and impart those gifts to them.

This Scripture clearly shows us there is more than one kind of baptism. These Christians had received water baptism, but not the Holy Ghost baptism until Paul laid his hands on them and prayed. We also see that the gifts of the Holy Spirit accompany this baptism, as they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

If what you are saying here is true, then it is impossible for anyone to be baptized by the Holy Spirit today because it was necessary for an Apostle to lay their hands on someone for this to happen. This entire post would have been unnecessary if what you are saying is true.

Still, I don't believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit happens anymore today, and I believe that there are really only two examples of it happening in the New Testament: Acts 2 & 10. There was a might sound that could be heard from far away, and there were instantaneous gifts, in particular tongues. This just simply does not happen today.

Rather, we have been commanded to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by Christ (Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16) in order that we might be saved. This isn't optional, it isn't an outward sign, it is a necessity for our salvation.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 15, 2003

aggie03 said:
Ok .

I would really love for you to show me a verse that states this specifically. Is there a verse in the the Bible that states explicitly that salvation inspires baptism? If there is, I would love to learn about it, if there isn't, then this is a belief that is outside of Biblical teaching.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY SINCE IT IS NEVER MENTIONED

I would say that we can't be born again without being baptized for the remission of our sins. Let's take a very close look at what the text of John 3 actually says:

John 3:4-5 ASV

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

In Jesus's reply to Nicodemus He is talking about how we are to be reborn. His answer: of water and the Spirit. He does not say just believe. Baptism is instrumental in our being reborn, in fact, it does not happen without it!

WATER AND THE SPIRIT ...INSTEAD OF AND PUT "EVEN"

CALLED SHARPS RULE FOR INTERPETING GREEK YOU LOOK IT UP
DON'T TAKE MY WORD
THEN ADD JOHN 7:37-39 MAKES SENSE AND FLOWS BETTER WITH ALL VERSE

What exactly does it mean to receive Jesus into your heart? This is a very common expression, but very few people can actually tell me what it means.

THE HEART IS WHERE THE BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT COMES TO GETHER IN THE MIND TO DECIDE ON CHOICES OF LIFE

It is true that Christ would take the sins of the worls upon Him at His death, but this is not at all the reason why He was baptized.

Matthew 3:15 ASV

But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

This was something that God had planned to happen. This was the reason that John had been sent in the first place, that all righteouness might be fulfilled and the things about which the prophets spoke should come to pass.

Please define what you mean by crisis experience. And I am also curious about this: from the way that you have this worded you are separating baptism of the Holy Spirit and conversion. So do you believe that no baptism occurs in the salvation process? Do you believe that you are baptized with the Holy Spirit before you are "saved", or after?

AT THAT MOMENT OF THE H.S. CONVINCES US TO BELIEVE THE H.S. PUT US INTO CHRIST..JOHN 16:7-11, 1COR 12:13

This smacks of man's teaching, man's traditions and man's thoughts. Where is this mentioned specifically in the scriptures?

I would really like to hear your definitions of baptism. Baptism simply means to immerse. Here you are saying that someone is immersed in the Holy Spirit when they believe, but that's not completely what needs to happen. I just don't understand any of the points that you are trying to make here at all .

Again, you cannot be born again without being baptized for the remission of your sins. This is not me saying this, but God:

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm glad that you've brought this passage up. Let's see exactly what it does say about this topic:

Acts 19:2-6 ASV

and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given. (3) And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John's baptism. (4) And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus. (5) And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This scripture shows that there are two types of baptisms: one of John and one of Christ. When they were not baptized in the name of Christ, Paul had them immediately baptized because they were not yet children of God, they hadn't been reborn. It's also important to note that they did not receive any spiritual gifts directly after they were baptized, but rather when Paul laid his hands on them. That's because this is how people were given spiritual gifts, like the ones mentioned here. It was necessary for an Apostle of Christ Jesus to lay their hands on an individual and impart those gifts to them.

THE BELIEVERS FROM THE OT DID NOT HAVE THE H.S. INSIDE OF THEM
,AS WE GET TO HAVE GOD RESIDE INSIDE OF US, AND THESE BELIEVER GOT AN OPPUNITY TO GET BETTER PROMISES AND THAT HOW THEY WENT ABOUT IT.

IN OT ONLY LEADER OR PROPHETS VERY LIMITED WOULD HAVE THE H.S. UPON THEM NOT INSIDE OF THEM

If what you are saying here is true, then it is impossible for anyone to be baptized by the Holy Spirit today because it was necessary for an Apostle to lay their hands on someone for this to happen. This entire post would have been unnecessary if what you are saying is true.

Still, I don't believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit happens anymore today, and I believe that there are really only two examples of it happening in the New Testament: Acts 2 & 10. There was a might sound that could be heard from far away, and there were instantaneous gifts, in particular tongues. This just simply does not happen today.

Rather, we have been commanded to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by Christ (Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16) in order that we might be saved. This isn't optional, it isn't an outward sign, it is a necessity for our salvation.

THAT IS CALLED WORKS EPH 2:8-9,TITUS 3:5 ROMANS 4:5

IGNORING THESE SCRIPTURES STILL I SEE

aggie03 · Aug 15, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY SINCE IT IS NEVER MENTIONED

1 John 5:7 KJV

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It's mentioned

.

WATER AND THE SPIRIT ...INSTEAD OF AND PUT "EVEN"

CALLED SHARPS RULE FOR INTERPETING GREEK YOU LOOK IT UP
DON'T TAKE MY WORD
THEN ADD JOHN 7:37-39 MAKES SENSE AND FLOWS BETTER WITH ALL VERSE

Now you're asking me to add and change scripture to fit your view? Of course you can make the Bible say anything you want if you take the liberty of changing what it actually says...

THE HEART IS WHERE THE BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT COMES TO GETHER IN THE MIND TO DECIDE ON CHOICES OF LIFE

This still doesn't answer my question... :scratch:

AT THAT MOMENT OF THE H.S. CONVINCES US TO BELIEVE THE H.S. PUT US INTO CHRIST..JOHN 16:7-11, 1COR 12:13

The way that Holy Spirit is able to work in our having belief is through the word. It doesn't just randomly travel around and make someone suddenly believe. Romans 10 outlines this exact thing:

Romans 10:17 KJV

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

When we hear the word of God and are convicted by it, this is how the Holy Spirit has effected our belief, because we have the word by the Holy Spirit.

THE BELIEVERS FROM THE OT DID NOT HAVE THE H.S. INSIDE OF THEM,AS WE GET TO HAVE GOD RESIDE INSIDE OF US, AND THESE BELIEVER GOT AN OPPUNITY TO GET BETTER PROMISES AND THAT HOW THEY WENT ABOUT IT.

We don't have the physical presence of the Holy Spirit inside of us either, but rather the word of God can richly dwell in us. The word is how the Spirit dwells in us.

THAT IS CALLED WORKS EPH 2:8-9,TITUS 3:5 ROMANS 4:5 IGNORING THESE SCRIPTURES STILL I SEE

Not ignoring, but rather harmonizing. Baptism is not a boastful work, but rather a commandment of God:

Luke 17:10 KJV

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Baptism is not something we can boast about because it is only doing what we are told to do. Baptism is mentioned in Titus 3:5. It is the washing of regeneration. Romans 4:5 harmonizes with Luke 17:10 also. We are merely being obedient, not earning salvation through something we've done.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Aug 15, 2003

But Trinity Is Never Mentioned

aggie03 · Aug 15, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
But Trinity Is Never Mentioned

Which is why I don't use that word. That's one the catholic denomination made up. The word Godhead is mentioned in the Scriptures - that's the one I use

.

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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