the definition of freewill

goodnews · Sep 19, 2004

The POWER think act and choose seperately from God's influence, design, will and purpose.

Mankind has the ILLUSION of freewill, just as a mouse in a cage.

For example:

ALL of mankind is born in bondage to sin by means of there own flesh. There is no way around it, you WILL sin because it is our NATURE to do so. Now you have the choice between sin A. or sin B. but you do not have the choice to be GOOD. If you believe that the NATURAL man can choose to be good, please show me ONE example, but before you do so first take a look at this:

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

There seems to be a consensus with humanity, WE AREN'T ANY GOOD!

This scripture states that NOBODY has even LOOKED for God, let around FOUND him of there own CARNAL WILL.

So what kind of freewill is that? You can do ANYTHING you want except good, that isn't freedom, that SLAVERY to SIN. WAKE UP! We are born in CAPTIVITY, we are not free until Christ unlocks to the door.

Received · Sep 19, 2004

What eternally befuddles me with such a presentation is the fact that God in effect creates the world to damn a majority of it. If men are born in sin, they are not responsible for the sin that congenitally blinds them; if men are not born in sin, this is Pelagianism. If God creates a world out of faith, demands it to have faith, while He is the one who establishes faith, how is it just to call it punishment for those who cannot help but be as they are upon their condemantion for unbelief?

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Of course, you fail to understand that understanding enables positive respose; and if this understanding comes about only by the special revelation of God, are not men who do not understand the goodness of God naturally inclined not to seek Him? Assuredly, all men are a sinful mess sans redemption, but this sinfuless is its own punishment; indeed, sin is what we are saved from, not simply consequences (Matthew 1:21). Paul is speaking of a particular group, namely those who have not an understanding of God's goodness in salvation.

You can only teach a dog tricks by teaching it; without it it will proceed on in its doggy way.

So what kind of freewill is that? You can do ANYTHING you want except good, that isn't freedom, that SLAVERY to SIN. WAKE UP! We are born in CAPTIVITY, we are not free until Christ unlocks to the door.

DANCE! The non-Calvinist argues that we are born in sin, but this sin is by no means a perpetual endeavor, and proceeds only to a point of revelation by which this sinning is given the possibility of ceasing through the seeking of God.

goodnews · Sep 19, 2004

Received said:
What eternally befuddles me with such a presentation is the fact that God in effect creates the world to damn a majority of it. If men are born in sin, they are not responsible for the sin that congenitally blinds them; if men are not born in sin, this is Pelagianism. If God creates a world out of faith, demands it to have faith, while He is the one who establishes faith, how is it just to call it punishment for those who cannot help but be as they are upon their condemantion for unbelief?

Of course, you fail to understand that understanding enables positive respose; and if this understanding comes about only by the special revelation of God, are not men who do not understand the goodness of God naturally inclined not to seek Him? Assuredly, all men are a sinful mess sans redemption, but this sinfuless is its own punishment; indeed, sin is what we are saved from, not simply consequences (Matthew 1:21). Paul is speaking of a particular group, namely those who have not an understanding of God's goodness in salvation.

You can only teach a dog tricks by teaching it; without it it will proceed on in its doggy way.

DANCE! The non-Calvinist argues that we are born in sin, but this sin is by no means a perpetual endeavor, and proceeds only to a point of revelation by which this sinning is given the possibility of ceasing through the seeking of God.

Bravo! Thank you for stating my beliefs so clearly!

God is RESPONSIBLE for his own creation.

AND Man is ACCOUNTABLE for his evil WORKS because they are DONE WILLINGLY FROM THEIR CARNAL HEARTS.

As a Parent is responsible for their child, and a child is accountable for his/her actions, so God is with US.

All mankind will be saved! Because Christ is the Savior of All mankind.

Received · Sep 19, 2004

Stop! Drop! Roooolllll. Ok, I am clearly not a Calvinist, but I am a universalist; from this I salute you, and applaud your theological assiduousness in swimming against the stream.

AND Man is ACCOUNTABLE for his evil WORKS because they are DONE WILLINGLY FROM THEIR CARNAL HEARTS.

I agree with this to a point; I do not believe that this speaks of a perpetual nature of man, and even if men do have an inclination to sin, it is because of the intrinsic and congenital state of sin they have, which is a power that is very much alive in their members, literally tearing apart their psyches. We have been discussing Romans 7; check it out again. I just think there is a difference between committing an evil action because of a love for evil, and because your despair, or sinfulness, has constrained you to do so. For sin is nothing more than working outside of what you believe to be true (cf. Romans 14:23); and many men commit what they hate because they find a form of delusional life in such various actions.

goodnews · Sep 19, 2004

Without Christ, the Carnal nature perpetually overcomes the 'inner man',

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If you understand the scripture inwardly, overcoming THE WORLD, is overcoming SELF, which Christ has FULLY finished and completed.

Ben johnson · Sep 19, 2004

This scripture states that NOBODY has even LOOKED for God, let around FOUND him of there own CARNAL WILL.

Jesus calls ALL to Himself (Jn12:32). Yet it is in his unregenerated state that he beleives the Gospel.

"God is WELL PLEASED, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." 1Cor1:21

The "Scripture that says NOBODY HAS LOOKED for Him" --- ie lamentation --- not to be taken literally. Because we have verses lke these:

"Then you will come to Me and pray to Me, and I will hear you; you will seek Me and you will FIND Me, when you search with all your heart. I will be FOUND by you!" Jer29:11-14

"Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, he who SEEKS finds, and to hom who knocks it shall be opened." Matt7:7-8

I don't see any way of continuing to say, "NO ONE SEEKS".

Scripture says, "They who SEEK, FIND (God)."

And RE "universalism" --- tell me how to rewrite verses like this:

"NOT EVERYONE will inherit the kingdom of God, but those who DO the will of the Father". Matt7:21

Not everyone. That means, not everyone.

Redemption · Sep 19, 2004

The will of God is that you believe and trust in Christ. All will eventually believe in and ackowledge Jesus.

That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

goodnews · Sep 19, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Jesus calls ALL to Himself (Jn12:32). Yet it is in his unregenerated state that he beleives the Gospel.

There is no such scripture which says that the CARNAL man can believe, understand and love God. But the scriptures do say:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

"God is WELL PLEASED, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." 1Cor1:21

How does this verse state that CARNAL man can understand, believe and love God?

It is the message of the Gospel which CHANGES the CARNAL mind (and it is GOD who WILLS this change, not our own selves), it is not the CARNAL MIND that simply decides to repent and become spiritual, because it is CAPTIVE to VANITY.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Pray tell, how can a dead man without strength, sight, hearing or understanding find God? It is God who Draws (drags) us to HIM. I can not raise myself from the dead (spiritually or physically) it is God's strength and glory.

The "Scripture that says NOBODY HAS LOOKED for Him" --- ie lamentation --- not to be taken literally. Because we have verses lke these:

Since you have qualified this passage as a 'lamentation' does this mean it is to be taken with a grain of salt? Was the Spirit Breathed Word of God, exaggerating here? It means exactly what it says, you say it doesn't. You believe that in fact Mankind does search and find God of their own accord (will). If I am to read the Bible in such a twisted manner, I could justify any belief I want...for example.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Hey guys, this is a lamentation, it really doesn't mean what it says. What God is really saying here is, Some have sinned, some haven't it's a person by person issue.

"Then you will come to Me and pray to Me, and I will hear you; you will seek Me and you will FIND Me, when you search with all your heart. I will be FOUND by you!" Jer29:11-14

"Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, he who SEEKS finds, and to hom who knocks it shall be opened." Matt7:7-8

Click to expand...

Are some of God's Word truth, or are the SUM of God's Word Truth?

No one is going to find God unless He brings them from point A to B.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I don't see any way of continuing to say, "NO ONE SEEKS".

Scripture says, "They who SEEK, FIND (God)."

Your qualm is with Scripture. I stand on the knowledge of the truth, that None are Good just like Jesus said, and that because none are Good, none can DO good without Christ.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You may SEE no way that the scriptures agree, but this delima has been resolved in God's SOVERIEGN WILL, not man's puny desire.

And RE "universalism" --- tell me how to rewrite verses like this:

"NOT EVERYONE will inherit the kingdom of God, but those who DO the will of the Father". Matt7:21

You must have EARS TO HEAR to understand the Goodnews.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

To understand Mat 7:21 we must have some type of foundation as to FIRSTFRUITS and what the Kingdom of Heaven is.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This verse does not tell us WHAT exactly the Kingdom is, BUT it does give us its location.

Matthew 13:18-23 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The kingdom of Heaven which is within you is the SEED of the WORD which settles in your heart, but it only becomes fruitful if there is good earth in your heart. Whether or not the Word of God is fruitful in your life is not up to you!

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Here is the Word (motive) in our hearts:

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Not everyone will enter into oneness with Christ and the Father during this age

but there is a promise

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Now a few words on Firstfruits.

There is absolutely no reason to call something Firstfruits if you have no intention in including the rest of the crop in the harvest.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Ben johnson · Sep 19, 2004

The will of God is that you believe and trust in Christ. All will eventually believe in and ackowledge Jesus.

That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

Show me where, in all of Scripture, is the idea of "redemption after death".

"It is appointed once for men to die, and after this comes judgment." Heb9:27

"To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation." Romans2:7-8

"Fear Him who can DESTROY body and soul in Hell". Matt10:28

Do you know what DESTROY means?

Apollumi (Strong's Greek Interlinear):
1) to destroy
a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b) render useless
c) to kill
d) to declare that one must be put to death
e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

Confessing Jesus after death, is too late for redemption.

Redemption · Sep 19, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Show me where, in all of Scripture, is the idea of "redemption after death".

"It is appointed once for men to die, and after this comes judgment." Heb9:27

"To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation." Romans2:7-8

"Fear Him who can DESTROY body and soul in Hell". Matt10:28

Do you know what DESTROY means?

Apollumi (Strong's Greek Interlinear):
1) to destroy
a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b) render useless
c) to kill
d) to declare that one must be put to death
e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

Confessing Jesus after death, is too late for redemption.

Show me where in scripture redemption after death is not possible. Remember the phrase, " with God all things are possible".

Wrath and indignation for the unrightoeus correct. Is God wroth forever, No. The Lord punishes everyone he accepts as a son.

God can destroy body and soul in hell and he can raise it up again and heal it. The leaves of the tree of life is for healing. Revelation baby.

Where those born before Jesus time not atoned for also. Yes they were but they have long died and haven't confessed Jesus because they don't know who he is. I bet you believe all them who haven't the slightest chance to confess Christ and believe being born before his time will perish in hell. OOkay.

Think for a good minute honestly. It's estimated that around 150 billion people have lived since Adam. Less than 5% of that number of people are God's elect. Do you seriously think an all powerful God of perfect love, wisdom, compassion, mercy, justice, kindness, goodness, gentleness, peace, etc is going to annihilate or eternally torture billions upon billions of soul in hell whom he created for HIMSELF and for his own good PLEASURE. You think this God of ALMIGHTY POWER can't or for some odd reason won't save all his fallen creatures. You think the creatures destiny is in his owns hands and all he has to do is choose Christ. Sorry but that is rediculous.

God holds salvation is his hands and is responsible for giving people faith to believe in Christ. God is responsible for the destinies of everybody. God works EVERYTHING according to the cousel of HIS divine will. Man [mankind] is being made in his very image and likeness but, maybe you think man was in this perfect image and likeness of God before the fall. Or maybe all of us right now are in the perfect image and likeness of God. Can perfection sin, I think not. Adam and Eve sinned so they were never perfect.

Ben johnson · Sep 19, 2004

There is no such scripture which says that the CARNAL man can believe, understand and love God. But the scriptures do say:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That verse (14) is removed from the understanding you have, by verse 12. It is the RECEIVED Spirit who reveals "the things freely given by God".

The SPIRIT, is received by BELIEF. Thus is refuted the use of verse 14 in the sense of, "They cannot understand or believe in Jesus". Believing in Jesus is not one of the things that the "indwelling Spirit" must reveal; belief in Jesus as Savior, is what also receives the poured Spirit, through Whom comes regeneration. Titus3:5-6, Acts10:45, 11:17. The "regeneration through the poured Spirit" is AFTER belief." Look up these verses.

How does this verse state that CARNAL man can understand, believe and love God?

Because --- if your view was right, they would have to have it changed from FOOLISH, to POWER --- before they can believe. But Paul clearly says, "THROUGH the foolishness of the message THEY BELIEVE".

It is belief that changes the message from "foolishness", to "power". Not predestination. (It is belief that also RECEIVES regeneration.)

Pray tell, how can a dead man without strength, sight, hearing or understanding find God? It is God who Draws (drags) us to HIM. I can not raise myself from the dead (spiritually or physically) it is God's strength and glory.

We are limited to what Scripture says. You and I agree that "it is God's strength that raises us from the dead" --- but you reject the idea that "conscious will receives His strength".

The word in Jn6:44 is indeed, as you have stated, "helkuo-drags". But it is the same word also in Jn12:32. There is no reason to interpret 12:32 as "all means only SOME". He speaks of the WORLD, and he says "ALL MEN". All are drawn; some believe, some WILL not.

Tell me how you get "divine dictate" out of passages like Jn5:39-47? What I find there, is Jesus saying: "You think you're following the Scriptures; but the Scriptures speak of ME, and you WILL not come to Me that you may have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek men's glory rather than seeking God's? Don't think that I will accuse you; it is MOSES who will accuse you. You SAY you're following Moses --- but Moses spoke of ME, and you WON'T believe Moses --- so how will you beleive Me?"

Not one word of "GOD-ORDANED" in that, and every word of "YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE".

Since you have qualified this passage as a 'lamentation' does this mean it is to be taken with a grain of salt? Was the Spirit Breathed Word of God, exaggerating here? It means exactly what it says, you say it doesn't. You believe that in fact Mankind does search and find God of their own accord (will). If I am to read the Bible in such a twisted manner, I could justify any belief I want...for example.

It's not even original Pauline writing. Paul is just quoting Psalms 14 & 53. Saying, "No one (in general) seeks God". It does not contradict, "If you SEEK Him you will FIND Him --- when you search with all your heart". Do you have some way of throwing out Jeremiah 29:11-14, and Matt7:7-8?

The same structure is in places like Genesis 6:5-9. "The hearts of men were only evil continually". But then he says, "Noah found favor in God's eyes, Noah was righteous and blameless in his time." Is it a contradiction to say, "All were wicked and only thought of evil continually, but one WAS righteous"?

No one is going to find God unless He brings them from point A to B.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What was Jesus' point in that verse? Why did He say it? "The Jews were saying, 'Isn't this Jesus, son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He say 'I have come down out of Heaven'?' " Jn6:42

In saying, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him" --- Jesus was only saying, "COMING to Me is VALID --- sanctioned by GOD."

Look at John6 as a whole. How many times does Jesus say, "I will raise them up"?
In vs39.
In vs40.
In vs44.
In vs54.
Arguably in vs37.

How many groups will He "RAISE UP"? One. Can you deny that all these verses are PARALLEL? Those who COME to Him, are the same ones who BELIEVE in vs40! This is an important point --- because if they "come and THEN believe", then predestination is the theme; but if they are believers WHEN they come, then PREDESTINATION is NOT the them of Scripture.

And indeed --- asserting His equailty with God, Jesus is saying: "Believing in Me is believing in God; and believing in God is believing in Me." See Jn8:42, 14:1. Thus --- prior belief in God BEFORE being given (Jn17:6), and the fact that "believing in God IS believing in the Messiah God SENT (Jn8:42) --- establishes that "BEING GIVEN", is identical to "BELIEVING"!

Your qualm is with Scripture. I stand on the knowledge of the truth, that None are Good just like Jesus said, and that because none are Good, none can DO good without Christ.

Then show me how what I have said here, is not SCRIPTURAL TRUTH.

Believing in Jesus is not DOING GOOD.
Believing in Jesus is receiving the GOOD He has DONE (on the Cross).

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You may SEE no way that the scriptures agree, but this delima has been resolved in God's SOVERIEGN WILL, not man's puny desire.

Why do you ignore Jn15:6? "If anyone IN ME does not abide, he is cast off ...and burned." Do you have some way of making, "IN ME", never-saved?

You see "BORN AGAIN" (onr new begottenness) as 100% of God, and none of US. You see RIGHT. But you mistake BELIEF as part of that begottenness. Look again at John1:12-13; vs13 says "the begottenness is not of our will nor our blood, but OF GOD"; but vs12 says "those who RECEIVE Jesus gain the right to become God's children, even those who BELIEVE in His name."

Begottenness is of God; none of us. But our belief receives His gift of grace. We become begotten of Him, solely of Him; yet received through our faith.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Why do you think "it was given to them to know"? And HOW was it given? The same verse that removed 1Cor2:14 from your argument, also answers you here:

"We have RECEIVED the Spirit from God, that we may KNOW the things freely given to us by God."

You see, "it was given them to know, because they had believed in Him." Just as the Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they hadn't believed in Jesus. John10:24-26

The kingdom of Heaven which is within you is the SEED of the WORD which settles in your heart, but it only becomes fruitful if there is good earth in your heart. Whether or not the Word of God is fruitful in your life is not up to you!

Obviously you take "the good soil" and "bad soil" parable to mean "HE prepared the soil to BE good or bad". This first conflicts the whole of Scripture --- for it assigns God as the CREATOR OF CONDEMNATION. This is "double-predestination". Second, it conflicts what they wrote --- the only difference between the GOOD soil and the BAD soil --- they BOTH believed with joy at first --- but the BAD "fell, because of persecution/affliction/temptation", while the GOOD "bore fruit WITH PERSEVERANCE." Luke8:13-15, Mk4:17

Show me the verse that says "God will GUARANTEE that you overcome temptation". You can't. Meanwhile, I will show you 1Cor10:13, which says "God will give you a way that you may ESCAPE temptation" --- and then I will show you verse 12, which says "let he who thinks he STAND, take heed lest he FALL."

Fall from what, Goodnews? Fall from what?

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 21, 2004

goodnews said:
All mankind will be saved! Because Christ is the Savior of All mankind.

1 John 3:10 two diffrent children ...god and the devil

rev 20:11-15 people thrown into hell

does not add up 1+1= 3

GodsWatchman · Sep 22, 2004

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 John 3:10 two diffrent children ...god and the devil

rev 20:11-15 people thrown into hell

does not add up 1+1= 3

1 john 2:2

Christ has paid for every sin

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 22, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
1 john 2:2

Christ has paid for every sin

then as john 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

God died for all sins yes but one does not recieve forgivness if one does not believe that God did everything for there salvation...

Ben johnson · Sep 23, 2004

ABIC said:
1 John 3:10 two diffrent children ...god and the devil

rev 20:11-15 people thrown into hell

does not add up 1+1= 3

ABIC said:
then as john 16:9 --- "Of sin, because they believe not on me";

God died for all sins yes but one does not recieve forgivness if one does not believe that God did everything for their salvation...

Well said, A_Brethren.

Believe in Jesus, and you shall be saved; believe, receive Him as Lord and Savior, repent and ask forgiveness for sins. Then (and ONLY then) are sins forgiven.

Then and ONLY then is one "escaped from Hell".

goodnews · Sep 23, 2004

Ben,

Not to be derogatory by any means, but I am a little confused with your post and I don't know if I understand all your points. Forgive me if I misinterpet any of your explinations.

Ben johnson said:
That verse (14) is removed from the understanding you have, by verse 12. It is the RECEIVED Spirit who reveals "the things freely given by God".

The SPIRIT, is received by BELIEF. Thus is refuted the use of verse 14 in the sense of, "They cannot understand or believe in Jesus". Believing in Jesus is not one of the things that the "indwelling Spirit" must reveal; belief in Jesus as Savior, is what also receives the poured Spirit, through Whom comes regeneration. Titus3:5-6, Acts10:45, 11:17. The "regeneration through the poured Spirit" is AFTER belief." Look up these verses.
Because --- if your view was right, they would have to have it changed from FOOLISH, to POWER --- before they can believe. But Paul clearly says, "THROUGH the foolishness of the message THEY BELIEVE".

It is belief that changes the message from "foolishness", to "power". Not predestination. (It is belief that also RECEIVES regeneration.)
We are limited to what Scripture says. You and I agree that "it is God's strength that raises us from the dead" --- but you reject the idea that "conscious will receives His strength".

I will now quote more of the passage in Cor so that I can bring this whole issue to light.

1 Corinthians 2:7-14 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The context here REALLY DAMAGES your position that we need not have the indwelling of GOD'S SPIRIT to receive spiritual things, (which would include faith of course) but that the carnal man pocesses within his own darkened mind the ABILITY to BELIEVE in spiritual things.

My position is that receiving and believing at interchangeable in this passage, if you refute this there is really nothing I can say other than that it is just plain obvious.

If you do not have God's spirit working in and through you then there is NO HOPE THAT YOU WILL EVER BELIEVE....

The word in Jn6:44 is indeed, as you have stated, "helkuo-drags". But it is the same word also in Jn12:32. There is no reason to interpret 12:32 as "all means only SOME". He speaks of the WORLD, and he says "ALL MEN". All are drawn; some believe, some WILL not.

What's the point of drags people to Christ if they will never believe? To give them a chance? Why drag them to begin with if it's all based on chances? Don't you see that this verse is saying that the Atonement of Christ will gather all mankind like fish in a net?

Tell me how you get "divine dictate" out of passages like Jn5:39-47? What I find there, is Jesus saying: "You think you're following the Scriptures; but the Scriptures speak of ME, and you WILL not come to Me that you may have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek men's glory rather than seeking God's? Don't think that I will accuse you; it is MOSES who will accuse you. You SAY you're following Moses --- but Moses spoke of ME, and you WON'T believe Moses --- so how will you beleive Me?"

Click to expand...

Why didn't they believe?

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Does this not fit in very well with 1Cor2:11-14?

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

They rejected the Word/Truth/Christ because they could not receive it. Why couldn't they receive it? Because they are born natural brute beasts and you must be born again by the holy spirit to receive spiritual things. Just as the passage in corinthians says, Only the Spirit of God knows God

Not one word of "GOD-ORDANED" in that, and every word of "YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE".

God work all things after the council of his own will, especially SALVATION! God ordained the blindness of the pharisees and masses so that they could not understand. It was Satan who did the actual blinding, but God who did the ordaining.

It's not even original Pauline writing. Paul is just quoting Psalms 14 & 53. Saying, "No one (in general) seeks God". It does not contradict, "If you SEEK Him you will FIND Him --- when you search with all your heart". Do you have some way of throwing out Jeremiah 29:11-14, and Matt7:7-8?

This is where I think we have the biggest misunderstanding.

I am not saying that no one has became righteous. I am saying that no one is born intristically righteous but rather intristically Evil. You must be born again and receive a new heart to understand the gospel and receive Christ's robes of righteousness.

I am saying that no man has ever in the history of the world come to believe in Christ by means of the carnal 'free'will.

The same structure is in places like Genesis 6:5-9. "The hearts of men were only evil continually". But then he says, "Noah found favor in God's eyes, Noah was righteous and blameless in his time." Is it a contradiction to say, "All were wicked and only thought of evil continually, but one WAS righteous"?

because Noah was born again, not carnal. This does not negate the fact that ALL NATURALLY BORN HUMANS reject God and do only evil continually

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

What was Jesus' point in that verse? Why did He say it? "The Jews were saying, 'Isn't this Jesus, son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He say 'I have come down out of Heaven'?' " Jn6:42

In saying, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him" --- Jesus was only saying, "COMING to Me is VALID --- sanctioned by GOD."

Yes, Christ is saying that he is the valid son of God, and he is also saying that only by God's will can we recieve Him.

Look at John6 as a whole. How many times does Jesus say, "I will raise them up"?
In vs39.
In vs40.
In vs44.
In vs54.
Arguably in vs37.

How many groups will He "RAISE UP"? One. Can you deny that all these verses are PARALLEL? Those who COME to Him, are the same ones who BELIEVE in vs40! This is an important point --- because if they "come and THEN believe", then predestination is the theme; but if they are believers WHEN they come, then PREDESTINATION is NOT the them of Scripture.

I don't understand your logic here

Believing in Jesus is not DOING GOOD.
Believing in Jesus is receiving the GOOD He has DONE (on the Cross).
Why do you ignore Jn15:6? "If anyone IN ME does not abide, he is cast off ...and burned." Do you have some way of making, "IN ME", never-saved?

To say that Faith is not doing Good is to say it is doing Evil, I can not agree, nor do the scriptures. But I do believe that it is not MY good because what do I have that I have not received? When did I ever claim responsibility for any of this God-given goodness.

You see "BORN AGAIN" (onr new begottenness) as 100% of God, and none of US. You see RIGHT. But you mistake BELIEF as part of that begottenness. Look again at John1:12-13; vs13 says "the begottenness is not of our will nor our blood, but OF GOD"; but vs12 says "those who RECEIVE Jesus gain the right to become God's children, even those who BELIEVE in His name."

Birthright is forordained

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Begottenness is of God; none of us. But our belief receives His gift of grace. We become begotten of Him, solely of Him; yet received through our faith.
Why do you think "it was given to them to know"? And HOW was it given? The same verse that removed 1Cor2:14 from your argument, also answers you here:

Where did your belief/faith come from?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"We have RECEIVED the Spirit from God, that we may KNOW the things freely given to us by God."

You see, "it was given them to know, because they had believed in Him." Just as the Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they hadn't believed in Jesus. John10:24-26
Obviously you take "the good soil" and "bad soil" parable to mean "HE prepared the soil to BE good or bad". This first conflicts the whole of Scripture --- for it assigns God as the CREATOR OF CONDEMNATION. This is "double-predestination". Second, it conflicts what they wrote --- the only difference between the GOOD soil and the BAD soil --- they BOTH believed with joy at first --- but the BAD "fell, because of persecution/affliction/temptation", while the GOOD "bore fruit WITH PERSEVERANCE." Luke8:13-15, Mk4:17

Why did they believe in Him, was there something intristically GOOD about the disciples?

Show me the verse that says "God will GUARANTEE that you overcome temptation". You can't. Meanwhile, I will show you 1Cor10:13, which says "God will give you a way that you may ESCAPE temptation" --- and then I will show you verse 12, which says "let he who thinks he STAND, take heed lest he FALL."

IF you abide in Christ you will overcome the world. Whether or not your abide in Christ depends on if Christ has prepared a dwelling place for you or not.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Fall from what, Goodnews? Fall from what?

What do you want me to say? Fall from the God's loving grasp?

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ben johnson · Sep 23, 2004

The context here REALLY DAMAGES your position that we need not have the indwelling of GOD'S SPIRIT to receive spiritual things, (which would include faith of course) but that the carnal man pocesses within his own darkened mind the ABILITY to BELIEVE in spiritual things.

The concept of "which-would-include-saving-faith-of-course" is presumption, Goodnews. Believing in Jesus as Lord & Savior is not "one of the spiritual things that the Holy Spirit must reveal first".

Contrast this passage with Jn10:24-26. Some people take vs26 as, "You can't believe in Me because you're not My sheep". That's not what it says --- what they can't BELIEVE, is His MESSIAHSHIP. So, Jesus is saying, "You can't believe that I'm the Messiah, because you haven't believed in Me." Peter, otoh, DID believe in Jesus, and therefore knew He was the Messiah. Matt16:17

because Noah was born again, not carnal. This does not negate the fact that ALL NATURALLY BORN HUMANS reject God and do only evil continually

It simply shows that "a generality" can exaggerate; "All men are depraved, but Noah was righteous". It plainly says "every thought of man was only evil continually" --- the cause of Noah's righteousness isn't asserted, it says "every man". My point, was the equivalence of "generality" of Romans 3 (Psalm14&53) --- "no one seeks" does not preclude "seek Him and you shall find Him".

Yes, Christ is saying that he is the valid son of God, and he is also saying that only by God's will can we recieve Him.

I would agree with you on that; but we must carefully define "God's will"; is it "decree" or "desire"? Scripture says that it is God's DESIRE-will that EVERYONE be saved...

...obviously not everyone is saved...

I don't understand your logic here

Simply that the passage does not support "God's GIVING preceeding our BELIEVING". There are none whom God gives to Jesus, who are not given through (and because of) their belief.

To say that Faith is not doing Good is to say it is doing Evil, I can not agree, nor do the scriptures. But I do believe that it is not MY good because what do I have that I have not received? When did I ever claim responsibility for any of this God-given goodness.

No no no --- faith is not doing ANYTHING --- it is RECEIVING what Jesus DID.

If you bake a cake for my birthday, I can RECEIVE it or I can REJECT it. If I take the cake (some say I do that), then have I DONE anything to make the cake, decorate it or participate in any way? The cake remains all of YOU, and nothing of ME; I only RECEIVE it...

This is against the idea that "receiving the gift of grace by our own faith, would be DOING something GOOD of our SELVES." No --- it is not doing something good, but receiving the good Jesus did.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Right. Identical to, "who were begotten not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, but of God." Jn1:13

But the complete message, is "God has mercy on those who BELIEVE." Believing receives His grace; and we become His children --- the grace is the begottenness bestowed upon us through Jesus, begottenness that is NOT of our will nor of our flesh but OF GOD.

...received through our faith... Jn1:12

Where did your belief/faith come from?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Sorry, the subject is the entire phrase, "by grace through faith have you been saved". "That salvation" (footnote NASV).

1. THAT SALVATION by grace
2. THAT SALVATION through faith
3. THAT SALVATION is not of yourselves (it was all done by Jesus on the Cross!)
4. THAT SALVATION is the gift of God
5. THAT SALVATION is not by works lest anyone boast.

You see, there is no way to deny verses like 2Tim3:15: "You have learned the sacred Scriptures which are able to give you wisdom leading to faith to salvation". Where in that is "faith instilled by God"? Instead it says "faith came from learning the Scriptures". (And the converse is in places like Jn5, where it says "you read Moses' writings but you WILL NOT believe in Me; if you BELIEVED Moses then you WOULD BELIEVE Me.") Can you deny that "saving-faith" is not instilled by God, but a conscious choice for the person?

Why did they believe in Him, was there something intristically GOOD about the disciples?

It's called, "free will". Some are convicted and believe; some love sin. Look at an oft-used passage (in support of PREDESTINATION) --- Ezk36:26-27, and its mirror Ezk11:19-20. Can you deny that Ezk11:18 and 21 plainly say, "those who turn TO God get new hearts, but those who prefer abominations are in trouble?"

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

First, this verse says: "I chose YOU TWELVE to be DISCIPLES".
Second, Jn6:70 says "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE is a devil!"
Jesus chose Judas. Oops.

What do you want me to say? Fall from the God's loving grasp?

Simply asking you what he meant by "fall"? Look at 1Cor10:13; now look at vs12 --- "fall from what"? I respectfully submit that the only thing he could mean, is "fall from salvation". Contrast 1Cor10:12-13, with James1:14-16. "Beloved brethren" are warned about "being carried away by lust"; that "lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death".

How does "thanatos-death" affect our salvation, Goodnews?

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 23, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Well said, A_Brethren.

Believe in Jesus, and you shall be saved; believe, receive Him as Lord and Savior, repent and ask forgiveness for sins. Then (and ONLY then) are sins forgiven.

Then and ONLY then is one "escaped from Hell".

forgiveness of sin ...singular

all action sins are forgiven since God died for them...

this is a sin from the mind. we must acknowledge that God did this for us!

goodnews · Sep 23, 2004

Ben johnson said:
The concept of "which-would-include-saving-faith-of-course" is presumption, Goodnews. Believing in Jesus as Lord & Savior is not "one of the spiritual things that the Holy Spirit must reveal first".

Contrast this passage with Jn10:24-26. Some people take vs26 as, "You can't believe in Me because you're not My sheep". That's not what it says --- what they can't BELIEVE, is His MESSIAHSHIP. So, Jesus is saying, "You can't believe that I'm the Messiah, because you haven't believed in Me." Peter, otoh, DID believe in Jesus, and therefore knew He was the Messiah. Matt16:17

It is this one thing that is the source of all our disagreement I believe.

I believe that there are only one of two minds to be had in the universe, the Carnal and the Spiritual. The Spiritual is from God, the Carnal is from Natural Self (or Satan). Can we agree upon this?

Faith is Spiritual not Carnal, (Natural) it is SUPER-natural
My assumption I believe then is well founded.

God has to open up your brain and pour in the light

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed (to take off the cover, i.e. disclose) it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

would you agree that Simon himself was flesh and blood?

This supernatural event never happened to the multitudes or the pharisees, that's why they did not believe, because the Father never disclosed that Jesus was the Son of God or else they would not have crusified him (1Cor2:8). God had to keep them blind so that they would kill Jesus as pre-ordained.

I have effectively proven the truth, that the Lordship of Jesus must be Revealed by God's Holy Spirit, but you must deny it because God has not willed that you understand this truth at this time. However I do not fret, I know that your are in the hands of a the most loving and powerful being in the universe. Because God loves you, I love you Ben and I only hope we can someday share the same joy that this gospel has given me.

BTW. as to God's will and desire...

There is NOTHING God has even has the slightest inkling on thinking or even wishing to do and not DONE or is DOING or will DO.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This is the end:

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Ben johnson · Sep 23, 2004

I believe that there are only one of two minds to be had in the universe, the Carnal and the Spiritual. The Spiritual is from God, the Carnal is from Natural Self (or Satan). Can we agree upon this?

Agreed. But what you can't accept, is that carnal man CAN believe to salvation. Paul says it in 1Cor1:18-21. "The Gospel IS foolishness to the perishing; but God is pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those WHO BELIEVE."

Faith is Spiritual not Carnal, (Natural) it is SUPER-natural
My assumption I believe then is well founded.

WHICH "faith"? There is faith that is a spiritual gift, given to ONE and not to ANOTHER. 1Cor12:9. There is "a measure of faith given to all believers" Rom12:3. But SAVING faith, which is the same as saving belief --- Paul says "it comes from the heart" (Rom10:10), faith/obedience comes from the heart (Rom6:17), and clearly in 2Tim3:15 saving faith results from learning the Scriptures --- not "instilled by God".

Look closely at Romans 10 --- if "saving-faith was gifted by God", then believing would not condition on availability of PREACHERS, would it? 10:14.

This supernatural event never happened to the multitudes or the pharisees, that's why they did not believe, because the Father never disclosed that Jesus was the Son of God or else they would not have crusified him (1Cor2:8). God had to keep them blind so that they would kill Jesus as pre-ordained.

No. All of Jesus' words convey "rebuke because they WOULD not believe."

Look at John5:39-47. They read Moses' words; but WOULD not believe in Jesus that they might have life. And why did they REFUSE to believe? "BECAUSE they sought man's glory rather than God's". Not "because God did not enlighten them". John8 stands as a rebuke; saying, "You SAY God is your Father --- but if He WAS (if you really believed God) then you would love ME! But you WANT to do the evil desires of your real father, the devil..."

I have effectively proven the truth, that the Lordship of Jesus must be Revealed by God's Holy Spirit, but you must deny it because God has not willed that you understand this truth at this time. However I do not fret, I know that your are in the hands of a the most loving and powerful being in the universe. Because God loves you, I love you Ben and I only hope we can someday share the same joy that this gospel has given me.

Be careful; the idea of, "I (we) have special revelation, which you cannot understand because God has not given it to you yet (or you're not mature enough to understand, etc)" --- this is the basis for many cults. Whatever "special revelation" you or I may have, it must not contradict Scripture.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Yet God makes His pleasure clear: "This is the WILL (thelema, desire or pleasure) of God, that whoever beholds Jesus AND BELIEVES may have eternal life." Jn6:40

the definition of freewill

Active Member

True love waits in haunted attics

Active Member

True love waits in haunted attics

Active Member

Legend

Redemption

Guest

Active Member

Legend

Redemption

Guest

Legend

Well-Known Member

GodsWatchman

Well-Known Member

Legend

Active Member

Legend

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Legend

Similar threads