mark kennedy said:
gladiatrix said:
I would as the same question of you because you obviously don't know what abiogenesis is or you wouldn't make such statements as this:
Where is there any comparable evidence for your God? The reason I ask for comparable evidence is that you also speak of BOTH science and theological concepts like your God using methodological naturalism:
I am well aware of the endless rationalizations I ran into in the abiogenesis thread. I spent hours going over this nonesense and it was one deadend after another.
And your comment about the alleged "endless rationalizations I[you] ran into in the abiogenesis thread" has what to do with your attempt to conflate such things as methodological naturalism and theology?
RED HERRING, much!!!
mark kennedy said:
gladiatrix said:
In other words, you god is NOT "NATURAL", so to use for you to contend that BOTH science and theology (which is founded on concepts NOT NATURAL and hence not testible by methodological naturalism) to be quite ridiculous. However, since YOU have put your god into the same "class" (methodological naturalism) as science, I await your empirical evidence that your god exists (even one single solitary piece of empirical evidence). You dug yourself into this "methodological naturalistic" hole (so to speak), let's see you dig yourself out of it.
What in these bizzare allegations would lead me to suspect that you followed a word of all the mess lucaspa sprung on me. For one thing God is not directly testable through inductive testing or obervation.
????I NEVER said your god concept WAS TESTABLE===>You imply that your god concept IS testable when you attempt to conflate MN and theology.
- You have used methodological naturalism (MN)and theology as though the two things were somehow interchangeable.
- I was pointing out to you that IF that is so, then for YOU to continue trying to conflate the two, then you would also have to abide by the rules of MN which can only consider empirical evidence.
- The above means that in order to establish you god as a fact, you would need empirical evidence (to abide by the rules of MN, IF MN and theology are really the same).
Of course you seem to want to be given the usual theistic pass and special plead your deity into existency by mere declaration:
mark kennedy said:
Post #9
Wrong answer! God is by definition alive, abiogenesis is the emergence of life from nonliving sources.
Declared "alive" by whose definition? The Bible's? The only verifiable fact about the Bible is that it is the work of men who merely claimed to be "inspired" (how, when? on the toidy? what?) by a most conveniently invisible "entity" who even more conveniently seems only to have "spoken" (how?, when? where?) to them. As you should be aware, personal experience (the only thing the Bibical authors can claim) is NOT empirical evidence.
The only reason that you persist in trying to conflate theology with MN is that you desperately need for the two to be the same in order to special plead your deity into existence. The way you "accomplish" this is to claim that MN is simply , how do you say it:
mark kennedy said:
It has nothing to do with the large body of work that has grown up around evolutionary biology. It is natualistic methodology taken to its most impossible extreme both as science and theology.
As yet, you have provided no evidence that MN/abiogenesis/evolution is some form of "theology" in any post you have made in this forum. You simply persist in making the DECLARATION that it, i.e., MN/evolution/abiogenesis = theology, is so. Your transparent strategy goes like this:
- Since you know good and well that no empirical evidence is used by theists to justify their beliefs, you clearly need the same to be true of the proponents of evolution/abiogenesis.
- To "make it so", i. e., first, you DECLARE MN to be a "theology" and hence by DECLARATION any scientific theory that arises from the application of MN must necessarily be nothing more than "theological" dogma, comparable to your theological dogmas (everything, even the MN are just "faith-based"). As yet you have NOT given any argument that would even come close in justify your declaration that MN/evolution/abiogenesis = theology.
- Second, you simply DENY and IGNORE any and all empirical evidence for evolution or abiogenesis.
We aren't fooled by your desperation to conflate MN with theology because we understand why you so desperately NEED it to be so.
mark kennedy said:
gladiatrix said:
I repeat IF your God doesn't abide by the rules of MN, then you have no justification for declaring that MN and theology are on equal footing. Since when does theology rely on hypothesis testing via empirical evidence?
What I have rejected is that methodological naturalism represents the only means by which we can determine truth.
I don't recall that anyone ever claimed that MN was "the ONLY means by which we can determine truth". MN says nothing one way or another about the "supernatural". You have admitted above that, and I quote:
mark kennedy said:
For one thing God is not directly testable through inductive testing or obervation.
What you want is for science to accept your theology as part of a methodological naturalistic explanation for the appearance/history of life on Earth, even though your god/theology doesn't begin to abide by ANY of the rules of science/MN. Now that is special pleading in spades. In other words, since you admit that your god is NOT testible, then your god concept has NO PLACE in any kind of methodological naturalistic explanation for either the appearance of life on earth nor it's history since it's "debut". You can't have it both ways, i.e., you want your god concept to be accepted as part of a scientific explanation, BUT don't want to have to abide by the rules of science that demand empirical evidence to establish the validy of "mark kennedy's God-did-it"as part of that same scientific explanation.
mark kennedy said:
gladiatrix said:
If you can't produce empirical evidence for your "NOT natural" being, then I strongly suggest that you stop
If you don't have an intelligent argument for abiogenesis then I suggest you stop spaming the lucaspa exchanges.
Well, it looks like my claim that you simply ignore what's presented to you has just been validated. These (posted AGAIN, since you ignored them the first time) are my posts on the subject, NOT lucaspa's==>
From Post #20
gladiatrix said:
mark kennedy said:
From
Post #6:
God and abiogenesis are mutually exclusive, there is no substantive difference between abiogenesis and materialistic atheism.
1. Abiogenesis, by the way, doesn't even have enough demonstrated evidence to be considered a theroy.
2. Its a fantasy like much of the rest of evolutionary theology, it excluded anything that might be understood to be God's handiwork.(Numbering added to original)
A. With regard to your first assertion (1.): There is empirical evidence for abiogenesis.
1. Note that posts a through d were my own.
2. Furthermore, unless you can show that they "don't have an intelligent argument for abiogenesis", then that makes you simpy guilty of an unwarranted ad hominem attack in place of any argument.
3. Also note that I posted the links in ~e~ as a COURTESY to you to demonstrate that I had taken the time to read your arguments and was quite aware of your position on the subject (unfortunately for YOU, lucaspa easily disposed your arguments, posted for lurkers/readers to see just how off the scientific beam your arguments were). Apparently you don't seem to want to extend the same courtesy of reading what others have written choosing rather to display condescending arrogance instead. Do keep it up, again the poverty of your position is quite obvious.
I can see why lucaspa also poses a real problem for your evolution = atheism/abiogenesis = atheism mantra in that he is a Christian ...doesn't seem to have affected his god-belief in the slightest. This is yet another falsification of your contention. Oh wait, he's not a "TRUE Christians, right? (mark's way or the atheist highway)?
mark kennedy said:
Now while lucaspa had some interesting points he was in the bad habit of making double posts that turned the whole thing into a huge mess.
Double posting??? This is a argument (assuming it's true) against anything lucaspa posted, HOW? Now that is really a pathetic argument, but you've got nothing else in the way of an argument (Argument from Double-Posting...I'm underwhelmed)
mark kennedy said:
I have been in a number of very interesting debates elsewhere that taught me a great deal about biology and genetics.
There is little in your posts to back up the above bit of chest-pounding. As evidenced by your next remark:
mark kennedy said:
Here what I encountered is the assertion that it is not a part of evolution, followed inevitably by the burning sarcasm of antitheistic satire, and the occasional substantive point.
And burning sarcasm was ALL you deserved for your continued attempt to try and portray abiogenesis as part of evolutionary theory, because it is NOT. And you were claiming to have been "taught [..] a great deal about biology and genetics"??!! PullleeezzzEE!!!
mark kennedy said:
I have encountered chaos theory, the Fox experiments, the technology that manufactures symetrical amino acids.
Your encounters with these concepts has obviously left you none the wiser when it comes to biology or how science works. Looks like more chest-pounding to me (scientific concept name-dropping in lieu of scientific understanding)
mark kennedy said:
What I encounted in that particular thread was a huge labyrith of disjointed quote mining.
An example of this "disjointed quote-mining" and how it didn't apply to any of your arguments would be what?? (the irony meter shatters at a creationist's huffing about "quote-mining"...reminder to self, turn the darned thing off when reading mark's posts).
mark kennedy said:
Oh, by the way, it may interest you to know that I challenged him to a formal debate to limit the length of his posts. It was ironic that after he had posted to another formal debate he was not invited into, but when I offered to debate him formally, he declined.
Oh pulleeze! More adolescent, testosterone-poisoned chest-pounding!!! Lucaspa OWNED you during any encounter you had with him. IF he declined your offer, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't out of compassion for you (he really didn't wish to make your position look any worse than it was and STILL is). In other words, I don't think lucaspa is "afraid" of anything you might have to say (what you are trying to imply).
Oh and BTW, why would he need to be invited to a debate in order to post in it? This is an open forum last time I looked. Let's assume that he posted in an controlled formal debate (your evidence for that would be what). All that would rank as is a violation of etiquette which is NOT an argument that would rebut anything he may have posted in "violation" of any formal debate rule (Ex. must be a designated proponent of X position in order to post an argument) Let's call this "Mark's Argument from Bad Etiquette"...again color me underwhelmed.
mark kennedy said:
It may also interest you to know that abiogenesis is pure supposition based on radical naturalistic methology.
Only if one completely ignores the EVIDENCE (posted by myself, lucaspa, and myriad others).
mark kennedy said:
It may also interest you to know that abiogenesis is pure supposition based on radical naturalistic methology.
Radical naturalistic methodology? Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that you demand that your god concept, a faith-based theological concept, be accepted without question and WITHOUT any supporting empirical evidence as the foundation of a scientific theory which can only be established BY empirical evidence (the foundation of the scientific method, i. e., "radical naturalistic methodology" according to you).
Special pleading, cognitive dissonance, much!
mark kennedy said:
There is precious little in the way of real world proof for it and informed evolutionists are aware of this.
Repeating the lie that there is no evidence is still a lie. (The
Goebbelspeak is strong with this one!)
mark kennedy said:
There is precious little in the way of real world proof for it and informed evolutionists are aware of this.
And a list of these alleged "informed" evolutionists would be? Why is it that I suspect that you only consider those people to be "informed" if they agree with your position?...but hey, I await your list of scientists who do (paging "Dr." Hovind!)
mark kennedy said:
Now if you want to know my postion is on abiogenesis then try this link.
Abiogenesis and evolution
Been there, done that, noticed that you got OWNED on that thread. Not impressed
mark kennedy said:
You may well want to check out the Talk Origins discussion of abiogenesis before you jump headfirst into the shallow end of the subject.
~~Snicker!~~ Thanks for the laugh...the irony was priceless!