Earliest belief of a symbolic Eucharist ?

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Marjorie

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But why weren't we supposed to drink blood?

"For it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, "You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off'" (Leviticus 17:14.)

We were not to drink the blood because the blood contains life. The life belongs to God, not us. That is why we were not to drink of the animals' blood.

And it is the reason that we should drink of Christ's blood. Because the life of Christ is our life. The veil between God and man was torn when Christ breathed his last, and life was set free, to be given to man without cost.

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Marjorie

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Serapha said:
The Lord Jesus identified that He would be leaving the world to return to the Father who sent Him. Jesus left the world that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) would come to take His place until His return for His Bride. Jesus left this world and took his body with Him never to return until He returns for the "Body of Christ".
So then Paul did not see the Risen Christ? He saw Him after Pentecost.

Christ ascended to heaven to send us the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit which makes us the Body of Christ, which sanctifies the Holy Gifts, which assures us that Christ will be with us, "even to the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20.)

Oblio was not asking for your interpretation of Holy Scripture, but for the earliest time that this interpretation was recorded.

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Serapha

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Marjorie said:
But why weren't we supposed to drink blood?

"For it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, "You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off'" (Leviticus 17:14.)

We were not to drink the blood because the blood contains life. The life belongs to God, not us. That is why we were not to drink of the animals' blood.

And it is the reason that we should drink of Christ's blood. Because the life of Christ is our life. The veil between God and man was torn when Christ breathed his last, and life was set free, to be given to man without cost.

In IC XC,
Marjorie
Hi there!

:wave:

So in keeping with the Lord's Last Supper, what is the ratio of water to wine that will cause the act of substantiation?

It must be in the Bible somewhere... remember as I posted, the passover feast did not use 100% pure wine... in fact, 100% pure wine could not be blessed.

~serapha~
 
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BBAS 64

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Marjorie said:
Good day Bill. :D

Of course not! First of all, as I said, the Orthodox Church also views the Eucharist as symbolic, in a sense of the word. Second of all, I would never say that those who view the Eucharist as purely symbolic are not Christians or deny the reality of Christ's sacrifice or Incarnation. I clarified myself on this note earlier in this thread, where I quoted Fr. Alexander Men'.

This is the most common usage of the word, however, I am talking about the classical form of the word: "A symbol is a sign included in the idea which it represents, e. g., an actual part chosen to represent the whole, or a lower form or species used as the representative of a higher in the same kind." The Eucharist is both indicative of a higher reality and is the actual Presence of that Reality. I explain how the Orthodox Church views the Eucharist in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t898685 I would highly recommend you read what I have to say there; it's very foreign to the Western mindset.

The Church Fathers often talked of the symbolic nature of the Eucharist, and also of the reality of the Eucharist. They are not contradictory. The Eucharist is the Church. We are one body for we all partake of the one bread. It is the sum of all things, and is the highest reality, and as a symbol, or sign, points to the final reality of the world to come. It both is and represents. It is an anamnesis-- in Greek this word means both a remembering and a making-present.

I specifically said that it is not Gnostic per se to have this view... scoll up a bit in the thread. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The Seder is a type-- as Eusebios himself writes-- of the Eucharist, but it is not the same thing.

That is exactly the Orthodox view. It is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist-- the true Body and Blood of the Risen Lord, and also bread and wine made by human hands. It, like the Incarnation, is the supreme coming-together of the material and the spiritual. We are not dualists.

I don't see how this quote goes against the doctrine of the Eucharist being, in the words of Iranaeus, "the wine and bread having received the Word of God... the body and blood of Christ."

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Good Day, Marjorie :wave:

I will go and read that thread that you posted. My use of the Sader in showing that the symbolic use of the bread by the Lord in the last super. The whole of Passover was seen as a remerance by the Jews, in that every thing had a symoblic meaning, they were real things. The bread was real, the wine was real, all the things on the plate was real. They were used to represent other things that the Jews were called to remember where God had brought them from.

Justin:

Chapter XL.-He Returns to the Mosaic Laws, and Proves that They Were Figures of the Things Which Pertain to Christ.

"The mystery, then, of the lamb which God enjoined to be sacrificed as the passover, was a type of Christ; with whose blood, in proportion to their faith in Him, they anoint their houses, i.e., themselves, who believe on Him. For that the creation which God created-to wit, Adam-was a house for the spirit which proceeded from God, you all can understand. And that this injunction was temporary, I prove thus. God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,108 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb. And the two goats which were ordered to be offered during the fast, of which one was sent away as the scape [goat], and the other sacrificed, were similarly declarative of the two appearances of Christ: the first, in which the elders of your people, and the priests, having laid hands on Him and put Him to death, sent Him away as the scape [goat]; and His second appearance, because in the same place in Jerusalem you shall recognise Him whom you have dishonoured, and who was an offering for all sinners willing to repent, and keeping the fast which Isaiah speaks of, loosening the terms109 of the violent contracts, and keeping the other precepts, likewise enumerated by him, and which I have quoted,110 which those believing in Jesus do. And further, you are aware that the offering of the two goats, which were enjoined to be sacrificed at the fast, was not permitted to take place similarly anywhere else, but only in Jerusalem.

Chapter XLI.-The Oblation of Fine Flour Was a Figure of the Eucharist.

"And the offering of fine flour, sirs," I said, "which was prescribed to be presented on behalf of those purified from leprosy, was a type of the bread of the Eucharist, the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, in order that we may at the same time thank God for having created the world, with all things therein, for the sake of man, and for delivering us from the evil in which we were, and for utterly overthrowing111 principalities and powers by Him who suffered according to His will. Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before,112 about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: `I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord: but ye profane it.'113 [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it]. The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first114 of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first.

Much like the Jews and the Sader for passover, we are given representations to be used to bring us to remembreance of his sacrifice made on the Cross. Much like the use of "real things" that called the Jews to remember the things that God had done for them.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Marjorie

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Marjorie :wave:

I will go and read that thread that you posted. My use of the Sader in showing that the symbolic use of the bread by the Lord in the last super. The whole of Passover was seen as a remerance by the Jews, in that every thing had a symoblic meaning, they were real things. The bread was real, the wine was real, all the things on the plate was real. They were used to represent other things that the Jews were called to remember where God had brought them from.
Yes, and what I said was that the Seder was a type of the Eucharist, which is what Eusebios writes about that and many events/rituals in the Old Testament. In other words, these events/rituals pointed to Christ, and mystically represented the Eucharist that was to come. For instance, Jesus writes about the serpent lifted up by Moses which was a type of the Cross. We cannot use this as a means of arguing that Christ's sacrifice was on the same level as Moses's action. Far from it! But Moses's action POINTED to the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The Seder likewise foreshadowed the Eucharist. Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover meal. That is what Justin is talking about when he calls the Passover a TYPE of Christ. It is not the same thing. But the old points to the new-- which is infinitely greater.

"And the offering of fine flour, sirs," I said, "which was prescribed to be presented on behalf of those purified from leprosy, was a type of the bread of the Eucharist, the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, in order that we may at the same time thank God for having created the world, with all things therein, for the sake of man, and for delivering us from the evil in which we were, and for utterly overthrowing111 principalities and powers by Him who suffered according to His will.
Again you're missing what Justin means by "type." He means a lesser reality pointing to a greater reality, such as the story of Abraham and Isaac foreshadows the sacrifice of Christ, or the tree of life foreshadows the Cross, etc. As for the word "memorial," in Greek-- which Justin wrote in-- the word is, as I wrote before, anamnesis, which means both "remembrance" and "making-present." It is a re-presentation. It calls into presence what has already occurred, and what will occur.

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Marjorie

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:

So in keeping with the Lord's Last Supper, what is the ratio of water to wine that will cause the act of substantiation?

It must be in the Bible somewhere... remember as I posted, the passover feast did not use 100% pure wine... in fact, 100% pure wine could not be blessed.

~serapha~
First of all, Orthodox Christians do not believe in transubstantiation as such. Transubstantiation is the doctrine that whilst the accidentals (taste, texture, etc.) of the bread and wine remain, the substance changes. This is a philosophical model which is not necessary in the Orthodox idea of the musterion, Mystery.

Second of all, water is in the wine of the Eucharist. http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Prothesis.html If you go to this site, it explains how the Holy Gifts are prepared. Both wine and water are in the Chalice.

Also, it's not the contents of the Chalice that cause the sanctification of the Holy Gifts. It is the Lord, the Giver of Life, the Holy Spirit of God.

Hope this helps. :D

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Donny_B

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I found the following research on the history of the symbolic presence here:

From: http://www.bible.ca/ntx-communion-transubstantiation.htm

Some excerpts:

Roman Catholics and Orthodox misrepresent the historical development of Transubstantiation, since its invention was no sooner than the third century. After all, Transubstantiation only became official Catholic doctrine in 1215 AD, with Pope Innocent III, in the Fourth Lateran Council. So before 200 AD, when writers said that the unleavened grape juice and bread were the body and blood of Christ, they were merely borrowing the words of Christ: "This is my body" etc. It is clear, however, that the church understood this in the symbolic sense, not in the later false doctrine of Transubstantiation.

Here are the historical records that are usually never quoted by Roman Catholic and Orthodox writers because they know it destroys their case.
1. Justin Martyr (150 AD):

Justin Martyr would reject transubstantiation because he referred to the unleavened bread as a "remembrance of His being made flesh", not that the bread was the literal body. He also referred to the unleavened juice as "in remembrance of His own blood" not that the juice was the literal blood of Christ:

"Now it is evident, that in this prophecy [Isa 33:13-19] to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, ch 70)​
2. Irenaeus (180 AD):

Irenaeus refutes the Gnostics on the basis that the Lord would not use "evil material things" like bread and juice in the Lord's Supper. Had Irenaeus argued that the bread and juice Transubstantiated (changed) into something different from what they appear, the Gnostics would have agreed, saying this change was essential because Jesus did not have physical flesh either!

"Irenaeus has the realist terminology but not the realist thought. There is no conversion of the elements. Indeed, if there were any change in the substance of the elements, his argument that our bodies-in reality, not in appearance-are raised would be subverted." (Early Christians Speak, Everett Ferguson, 1981, p 114)​
3. Tertullian (200 AD):

Tertullian comes right out and states that the bread is a mere symbol of the body of Christ and specifically refutes the Gnostics on this basis:

"Taking bread and distributing it to his disciples he made it his own body by saying, "This is my body," that is a "figure of my body." On the other hand, there would not have been a figure unless there was a true body." (Tertullian, Against Marcion IV. 40)​
4. Cyprian (200 AD):

Augustine as late at 400 AD, quotes Cyprian as saying that the juice is offered in remembrance as a type and foreshadow of the blood of Christ:

""Observe" he (Cyprian) says, in presenting the cup, to maintain the custom handed down to us from the Lord, and to do nothing that our Lord has not first done for us: so that the cup which is offered in remembrance of Him should be mixed with wine. For, as Christ says, 'I am the true vine,' it follows that the blood of Christ is wine, not water; and the cup cannot appear to contain His blood by which we are redeemed and quickened, if the wine be absent; for by the wine is the blood of Christ typified, that blood which is foreshadowed and proclaimed in all the types and declarations of Scripture." (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, book 4, ch 21, quoting Cyprian)​
The same situation prevails in the writings of Tertullian and Cyprian: ... both men when they speak with precision distinguish the symbol from what it represents. The bread was a "figure" of the body. But Tertullian turns the word figura against the Docetism of Marcion (IX.6). The language of symbolism does not help those who deny a real body to Jesus. The bread would not be a figure unless there was first a true body of which it was a figure. There is no shadow without a substance to cast the shadow. Similarly, for Cyprian, literal language about drinking Christ's blood is balanced by language of "remembrance" (X.5) and "representation" (IX.7). Both symbolism and realism are present in the thought of Cyprian and Tertullian. The symbolism concerns bread and wine as signs. (Early Christians Speak, Everett Ferguson, 1981, p 115)​
4. Hippolytus (200 AD):

Hippolytus speaking of the Lord's Supper as an antitype based upon Prov 9:1:

"And she hath furnished her table: "that denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity; it also refers to His honoured and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper. (Hippolytus, Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs 9:1)​
For Hippolytus, too, the bread and wine are the antitypes or likenesses of the reality portrayed. His consecration prayer (VIII.5) contains both the words of institution and petition for the Holy Spirit. But there is no suggestion of a change in the elements. (Early Christians Speak, Everett Ferguson, 1981, p 115)


The devil wanted to get the church to go into apostasy. So he started with the Gnostics who argued Jesus only appeared to have literal flesh and blood, but in fact he did not. After 200 years of anti-Gnostic battling, the church, finally adopted a remarkably similar view! Transubstantiation teaches that, although the elements of the Lord's Supper appear to be literal grape juice and bread, they are not what they appear. They are in fact different than what the 5 human senses tell us they really are: the literal blood and flesh of Christ. Our senses are deceiving us!
At first (100-200 AD) the church merely began to emphasize to the Gnostics, that the symbols of the Lord's Supper were based upon a literal flesh of Christ. In time, however, between 225 and 300 AD, the church began to counter the Gnostic theology in a new way. Whereas before, they had argued that the symbols of the bread and juice must be based upon a literal body, they suddenly began to emphasizing the literalistic language Jesus: "this is my body" against the Gnostics. Although this new line of reasoning that began no sooner than 225 AD, was successful, it required an abandonment of the orthodox arguments used the century before, which were all directly based upon the symbolic view. But now the Devil had succeeded in getting the church to use one false doctrine (Transubstantiation) to defeat another: Gnosticism. Refuting one false doctrine with another is quite common in theological debates and the reader needs to be aware of this. For example, Seventh-day Adventists convert all kinds of Catholics to Saturday worship because Catholics mistakenly call Sunday the Sabbath. The Adventist correctly points out that the 7th day Sabbath is Saturday, but completely overlooks the fact that the Sabbath law itself was abolished. Thus Adventist false doctrine merely converts the Catholic from one false doctrine to another. In like manner, the church between 225 - 300 AD defeated the Gnostic false doctrine with the false doctrine of Transubstantiation.

Transubstantiation is a false doctrine because:

  1. Mt 26:28 proves transubstantiation wrong because Jesus calls the cup "fruit of the vine" after both Roman Catholics and Orthodox say the "change" was supposed to take place. Catholics make Jesus a liar by calling the cup "fruit of the vine" rather than what Catholic false doctrine claims it was: Literal Blood.
  2. 1 Cor 11:26-27 proves transubstantiation wrong because Paul calls the loaf, "bread" after both Roman Catholics and Orthodox say the "change" was supposed to take place. Catholics make Paul a liar by calling the loaf "bread" rather than what Catholic false doctrine claims it was: Literal Flesh.
  3. Tertullian clearly rejects the idea of "real presence" and had never heard of transubstantiation since he taught the true symbolic view of the bread and juice, just as Jesus and Paul taught!
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Terral

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Hi Rechtglaubig and All:

Please allow me to take the opposing side of this discussion and bring up some points and questions that I have seen from years of debating this topic.
You quoted>> "A sacrament is the sign of a holy thing. When I say: The sacrament of the Lord’s body, I am simply referring to that bread which is the symbol of the body of Christ who was put to death for our sakes.... Now the sign and the thing signified cannot be one and the same. Therefore the sacrament of the body of Christ cannot be the body itself" - Ulrich Zwingli (Bromiley, G.W, trans. Zwingli and Bullinger (The Library of Christian Classics, volume 24)


1. From where in the Bible do we derive the word “Sacrament?”

2. Paul says that we are the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12), the church.
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.” Col. 1:24.

If the church is the body of Christ, then what sense does it make to eat the body of Christ?

3. How to we practice the Lord’s Passover Supper of Matthew 26, when Paul says,
“For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.” 1Cor. 11:19+20.

4. Christ used the verb form of ‘eucharisteo’ only twice in the entire account of Matthew (Matt. 15:36, Matt. 26:27) which means “to give thanks.” The noun form ‘eucharistia’ is not used in any of the Four Gospel accounts even once, and means “thankfulness.” Have we accurately applied Scripture to our ‘Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist’?

5. Christ was keeping Mosaic Law by partaking in the Lord’s Passover Supper in Matthew 26/Luke 22.
Ex 12:11 'Now you shall eat it in this manner: {with} your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste--it is the LORD'S Passover.

Lev 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.

Also, Christ told Israel that they must keep every precept of the Law, until heaven and earth passes away.
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” Matt. 5:18.

Therefore, Jews have been keeping the Passover on the same day every year. Every person at that Lord’s Last Passover Supper was also a Jew under Mosaic Law. Therefore, when He said, “ . . . do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19), why should we assume that He is talking about anything other than future “Lord’s Passover” meals?

6. Part of the Lord’s Passover ritual is the sacrifice of the Passover lamb.
“Then came the {first} day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover {lamb} had to be sacrificed. And Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it." Luke 22:7+8.

The ‘Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist’ is the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm).

Christ was pointing to His own sacrifice on the cross at Calvary in this Lord’s Supper ritual (Matt. 26/ Luke 22), where His blood would be shed for many, and His body offered up. Paul writes,
“Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are {in fact} unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.” 1Cor. 5:7.

If Christ’s blood has already been shed, and our redemption is in His blood (Eph. 1:7, Col. 1:20), and we are members of His body through the gospel (Eph. 1:13+14) then why is the ‘Holy Sacrifice’ being done over and over and over again? After all, Paul writes,
“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Rom. 10:4.

7. Some members of our churches are deemed qualified to partake in the “Communion,” while others are considered unworthy to take the bread and wine at the altar. Some members are ‘excommunicated,’ from the church. However, Paul writes,
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a {mere} shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Col. 2:16+17.

If nobody is to be our judge regarding these things, then where do those among us gain the authority to excommunicate part of the congregation from participation in this food and drink ritual?

In Christ,

Terral
 
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Marjorie

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Hey. :)

While I'm sure it was not your intention, this article disturbed me greatly.

Donny_B said:
I found the following research on the history of the symbolic presence here:

From: http://www.bible.ca/ntx-communion-transubstantiation.htm

Some excerpts:

Roman Catholics and Orthodox misrepresent the historical development of Transubstantiation,
If the author had actually done any research he would know that the Orthodox Church does not believe in Transubstantiation as such.

since its invention was no sooner than the third century.
Tell that to St. Ignatius...

After all, Transubstantiation only became official Catholic doctrine in 1215 AD,
We are not talking about Transubstantiation, but about the Eucharist being Christ's Body and Blood. There is a difference.

So before 200 AD, when writers said that the unleavened grape juice and bread were the body and blood of Christ, they were merely borrowing the words of Christ: "This is my body" etc. It is clear, however, that the church understood this in the symbolic sense, not in the later false doctrine of Transubstantiation.
They understood it as both symbolic and real-- in the words of Eusebios, "the symbols that are true." I have already quoted many of the ECFs earlier in this thread, who refer to the Eucharist as "truly the Body and Blood of Christ," "in fact His Body and Blood," etc. Yet they are also symbolic. They indicate a reality and they are a reality. I have addressed this earlier in the thread.

1. Justin Martyr (150 AD):

Justin Martyr would reject transubstantiation because he referred to the unleavened bread as a "remembrance of His being made flesh",
The word Justin used, as I have written previously, was anamnesis, the same word Jesus used. It indicated a making-present, a re-presentation, a calling into presence of the Reality.

not that the bread was the literal body.
I would like to clarify for all reading this that Justin did not say that-- only the commentator did. Only the red quotes are Justin's words.

"in remembrance of His own blood"
Yes, the commemoration and making-present of the Blood of Christ.

"Now it is evident, that in this prophecy [Isa 33:13-19] to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, ch 70)
Anamnesis. Justin clarifies his belief:

"We do not receive these as common bread and common drink. Rather, Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation. So, likewise, we have been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of Jesus who was made flesh" (The First Apology.)

2. Irenaeus (180 AD):
"Irenaeus has the realist terminology but not the realist thought. There is no conversion of the elements. Indeed, if there were any change in the substance of the elements, his argument that our bodies-in reality, not in appearance-are raised would be subverted." (Early Christians Speak, Everett Ferguson, 1981, p 114)​
This is a quote from Everett Ferguson and his opinion, not Irenaeus himself. Iraneaus instead wrote: "for the bread, which is produced from the earth, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist-- consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly" (Against Heresies.) "[The wine and bread] having received the Word of God, become the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ" (Against Heresies.)​

3. Tertullian (200 AD):
Tertullian comes right out and states that the bread is a mere symbol of the body of Christ and specifically refutes the Gnostics on this basis:


"Taking bread and distributing it to his disciples he made it his own body by saying, "This is my body," that is a "figure of my body." On the other hand, there would not have been a figure unless there was a true body." (Tertullian, Against Marcion IV. 40)
Continue reading what Tertullian has to say on the very same page (p. 418 in my set of the Church Fathers, the Tertullian volume.) He is talking about MARCION'S view of the Eucharist and why it is wrong. Then, what does Tertullian have to say about this, on the very same page?: "If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended that the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us... He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed 'in His blood,' affirms the reality of His body."

4. Cyprian (200 AD):
Augustine as late at 400 AD, quotes Cyprian as saying that the juice is offered in remembrance as a type and foreshadow of the blood of Christ:


""Observe" he (Cyprian) says, in presenting the cup, to maintain the custom handed down to us from the Lord, and to do nothing that our Lord has not first done for us: so that the cup which is offered in remembrance of Him should be mixed with wine. For, as Christ says, 'I am the true vine,' it follows that the blood of Christ is wine, not water; and the cup cannot appear to contain His blood by which we are redeemed and quickened, if the wine be absent; for by the wine is the blood of Christ typified, that blood which is foreshadowed and proclaimed in all the types and declarations of Scripture." (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, book 4, ch 21, quoting Cyprian)
There is nothing un-Orthodox about this. It is an anamnesis, a making-present. And it is foreshadowed in Holy Scripture by many events and rituals in the Old Testament.

St. Cyprian likewise affirms the Orthodox position: "Those presbyters, contrary to the Gospel law... before penitence was fulfilled... dare to offer on their behalf and give them the Eucharist. That is, they dare to profane the sacred body of the Lord" (Epistle X.) "Thereby, mindful of the Eucharist, the hand that has received the Lord's body may embrace the Lord Himself" (Epistle LV.) 'he says that whoever will eat of His bread will live forever. So it is clear that those who partake of His body and receive the Eucharist by the right of communion are living. On the other hand, we must fear and pray lest anyone who is separate from Christ's body-- being barred from communion-- should remain at a distance from salvation. For He Himself warns and says, 'Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you'" (Treatise IV.)

4. Hippolytus (200 AD):



Hippolytus speaking of the Lord's Supper as an antitype based upon Prov 9:1:


"And she hath furnished her table: "that denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity; it also refers to His honoured and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper. (Hippolytus, Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs 9:1)
Again, there is nothing un-Orthodox here.
For Hippolytus, too, the bread and wine are the antitypes or likenesses of the reality portrayed. His consecration prayer (VIII.5) contains both the words of institution and petition for the Holy Spirit. But there is no suggestion of a change in the elements. (Early Christians Speak, Everett Ferguson, 1981, p 115)
Do you expect Hippolytus to refer to Aristotlean philosophy like St. Thomas Aquinas? He referred to the Eucharist as the "undefiled body and blood," what more do we want?
Mt 26:28 proves transubstantiation wrong because Jesus calls the cup "fruit of the vine" after both Roman Catholics and Orthodox say the "change" was supposed to take place. Catholics make Jesus a liar by calling the cup "fruit of the vine" rather than what Catholic false doctrine claims it was: Literal Blood.
Why does the writer say "Orthodox" when he does not know the Orthodox doctrine? It is wine. It is also Christ's blood.

Cor 11:26-27 proves transubstantiation wrong because Paul calls the loaf, "bread" after both Roman Catholics and Orthodox say the "change" was supposed to take place. Catholics make Paul a liar by calling the loaf "bread" rather than what Catholic false doctrine claims it was: Literal Flesh.
That is not the Orthodox doctrine. It is a loaf. It is also Christ's Risen Body.
Tertullian clearly rejects the idea of "real presence" and had never heard of transubstantiation since he taught the true symbolic view of the bread and juice, just as Jesus and Paul taught!
His own words say otherwise.

By Steve Rudd
I think we should read the ECFs ourselves instead of trusting Steve Rudd. He has taken a lot out of context with obviously malicious intent.

In IC XC,
Marjorie
 
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Marjorie

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Terral said:
Hi Rechtglaubig and All:
Hey. :D

1. From where in the Bible do we derive the word “Sacrament?”
The word "sacrament" comes from the Latin word for "to consecrate." It is biblical, as all "consecrate" means is to set something apart and make it holy. (Note: 'holy' means 'separate.') The term is related to the word "sacred." In any case, from an Orthodox standpoint, "sacrament" is not the most common word used in the East, but musterion, Mystery. This is one of Paul's favorite words when referring to Christ and the Church.


2. Paul says that we are the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph.
4:12), the church.
But why are we the body of Christ? Because we partake of the Body of Christ. "For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread" (1 Corinthians 11:17.)

This is not to say that those not in communion with the Church are necessarily outside the Body of Christ. The Mystery is offered "on behalf of all, and for all," and many may benefit from it without even realizing it.


3. How to we practice the Lord’s Passover Supper of Matthew 26, when Paul says...
When one reads this in context it is clear that Paul is chastising the Corinthians, saying that they are not approaching the Lord's Supper correctly and this is a bad thing. He then gives instructions on how to approach the Chalice and the Body of Christ.


4. Christ used the verb form of ‘eucharisteo’ only twice in the entire account of Matthew (Matt.
15:36, Matt. 26:27) which means “to give thanks.” The noun form ‘eucharistia’ is not used in any of the Four Gospel accounts even once, and means “thankfulness.” Have we accurately applied Scripture to our ‘Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist’?
Both times the word is used it is in connection with the Eucharist. The miracle of the loaves and the fishes is a prefiguring of the Eucharist-- that is why in the gospel of John, "the spiritual gospel," which often records what something means instead of doing things in strictly chronological order, puts this miracle in John 6, just before Christ's discussion of being the "Bread of Life."

The fact is we have to call the Mystery something. We can't just call it "the Mystery wherein the bread and wine offered are sanctified and allow us to partake of the Heavenly Kingdom;" it would take too long. It is, however, a "sacrifice of praise"-- a thanksgiving. It is the term that evolved and I see nothing wrong with it.


5. Christ was keeping Mosaic Law by partaking in the Lord’s Passover Supper in Matthew 26/Luke 22.
Yet it was continued in the form Christ gave, not in the form of the old Passover meal, in the NT Church, as we see in Acts and in the Letter to the Corinthians, etc. It was also done weekly, "on the first day of the week," not yearly as the Passover meal was.



Therefore, when He said, “ . . . do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19), why should we assume that He is talking about anything other than future “Lord’s Passover” meals?
You know what they say about assuming.

Now, if he had just handed out bread and wine and said, "do this in remembrance of me," then, yes. But he didn't just do that. He prefaced it saying "this is my body," and "this is my blood of the new testament." It was a departure from the Seder. It did not follow the ORDER, the SEDER, of the Passover meal. The Passover meal is by nature very structured. Christ was changing the structure. Why? Because He is the fulfillment of the Passover meal. Christ is our Passover, said St. Paul (1 Corinthians 5:7.)


then why is the ‘Holy Sacrifice’ being done over and over and over again?
This is like saying, "Baptism, as you say, is sharing in Christ's death. How can Christ die thousands of times a year???" He can't. He died once. But we all partake of His death in baptism. In the same way, we partake of His Incarnation, Death, Resurrection, Ascension, and Glorious Second Coming in the Holy Eucharist.


7. Some members of our churches are deemed qualified to partake in the “Communion,” while others are considered unworthy to take the bread and wine at the altar. Some members are ‘excommunicated,’ from the church.
This practice was affirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5.

The quote about food and drink is irrelevant-- it is talking about kashrut, not the communion of the Body of the Lord.

In IC XC,
Marjorie
 
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Terral

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Hi Marjorie:
Terral’s question >> 1. From where in the Bible do we derive the word “Sacrament?”

Marjorie >> The word "sacrament" comes from the Latin word for "to consecrate." It is biblical, as all "consecrate" means is to set something apart and make it holy. (Note: 'holy' means 'separate.')

Please forgive, Marjorie, but the word ‘Sacrament’ is not in my New American Standard Bible. Saying “It is biblical’ is not the kind of answer I was seeking. The word “holy” is not part of the exercise; nor “consecrate.”
Marjorie continues >> The term is related to the word "sacred." In any case, from an Orthodox standpoint, "sacrament" is not the most common word used in the East, but musterion, Mystery. This is one of Paul's favorite words when referring to Christ and the Church.

Yes, we agree on musterion, but again, Sacred is not part of the exercise. The Greek is “hieros” and it is used in 2Tim. 3:15 in reference to the ‘sacred’ Scriptures, and 1Cor. 9:13 as noun in the neuter plural “sacred things.” If singular, the word hieron means ‘a temple.’ But, I am still looking for your Biblical Support for the word ‘sacrament.’

God bless,

Terral
 
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Marjorie

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Terral said:
Hi Marjorie:

Please forgive, Marjorie, but the word ‘Sacrament’ is not in my New American Standard Bible. Saying “It is biblical’ is not the kind of answer I was seeking. The word “holy” is not part of the exercise; nor “consecrate.”
Sacrament is the Latin word for something consecrated, something separate and holy. The Bible is in Latin as much as it is in English.

If someone were to call Jesus "amazing," would that be unbiblical simply because the Bible does not use that word in the exact context? No, it's logically biblical; if Jesus is our Savior then he is amazing. In the same way, if Communion is what the Bible describes, then it is separate, holy, consecrated, a sacrament.

But as I said, I'm not a Roman Catholic, and I don't use the term sacrament in general.

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Marjorie
 
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Terral

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Hi Marjorie:
Terral’s question >> 2. Paul says that we are the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12), the church.

Terral’s real question >> If the church is the body of Christ, then what sense does it make to eat the body of Christ?

Marjorie’s reply >> But why are we the body of Christ? Because we partake of the Body of Christ. "For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread" (1 Corinthians 11:17.)


You are quoting from the chapter before this one (1Cor. 10:16), which says,
“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.” 1Cor. 10:16+17.

Christ is speaking figuratively here of Christ being the One Bread. The cup they drank and bread they eat is from each and every meal. You have cut a verse out of Paul’s descriptions about eating foods sacrificed to idols. Just look above and below. Our context comes from his commands, that say,
“Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake.” 1Cor. 10:25.

“If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.” 1Cor. 10:27.

Marjorie continues >> This is not to say that those not in communion with the Church are necessarily outside the Body of Christ. The Mystery is offered "on behalf of all, and for all," and many may benefit from it without even realizing it.

The Word ‘mystery’ is not used anywhere near Paul’s words here about eating and drinking. The word is used twice in the letter to the Corinthians. 1Cor. 2:7 (God’s Hidden Wisdom) and 1Cor. 15:51 (mystery of the translation of the living saints). Paul uses the term ‘mystery’ exactly twenty times in all of his Gentile Epistles, and never with regard to eating and drinking. You say that the ‘mystery is offered’ as if this is a sacrifice; and offering. Did Christ offer Himself up on the cross for us all, or not? Are our offerings a symbol of what He is going to do for us? Or do they symbolize what He already did at Calvary?

We are the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12), because we were baptized into His body (Rom. 6:3) and “into His death.” We then became ‘clothed with Christ,’ (Gal. 3:27) through the Spiritual operation of God, and not because anyone feeds us bread and wine.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” 1Cor. 12:13.

What does the Bible call it when folks place a man or thing into the position of the Spirit of God; believing that the works of men can replace His Spirit? That word is commonly called Idolatry. The Greek is “eidololatria” and Paul uses it in 1Cor. 10:14 and 10:19.

God bless,

Terral
 
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Terral

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Hi Marjorie:
Terral original >> 3. How to we practice the Lord’s Passover Supper of Matthew 26, when Paul says...

“For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.” 1Cor. 11:19+20.

Marjorie’s reply >> When one reads this in context it is clear that Paul is chastising the Corinthians, saying that they are not approaching the Lord's Supper correctly and this is a bad thing. He then gives instructions on how to approach the Chalice and the Body of Christ.

Did Paul say, “Therefore, when you meet together, you are not eating the Lord’s Supper correctly.”? That is really quite a twist, don’t you think? In the sentence prior, he stated that there must be factions, and that those who were approved would become evident among them. That would be done through debate of the ‘word of God,’ and not by ‘eating and drinking.’ So, he states, “Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper.” 1Cor. 11:20. In other words, God’s Word is the bread we are to eat together; spiritual food. Those who are using it correctly are the 'approved.'

Is Paul talking about performing rites and rituals at church? Or is he addressing matters of eating and drinking at home?
"What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.” 1Cor. 11:22.

1 Cor 11:33 ¶ So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.

1 Cor 11:34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.” 1Cor. 11:33+34.

Is Paul addressing mature members of the body of Christ about how to perform food and drink rituals in church? How did Paul address these Corinthians earlier?
“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able {to receive it.} Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?” 1Cor. 3:1-3.


Paul does not mention any food and drink sacrificial ceremonial rituals to any of the other Gentile Churches. His words to these fleshy Corinthians are being taken out of context to prop up what Paul says ‘not’ to do in 1Cor. 11:20. If that seems odd, then try to find Paul giving one command to any priest from his Gentile Epistles. GL,

In Christ,

Terral
 
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Terral

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Hi Marjorie:
Terral Original >> 4. Christ used the verb form of ‘eucharisteo’ only twice in the entire account of Matthew (Matt. 15:36, Matt. 26:27) which means “to give thanks.” The noun form ‘eucharistia’ is not used in any of the Four Gospel accounts even once, and means “thankfulness.” Have we accurately applied Scripture to our ‘Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist’?

Marjorie >> Both times the word is used it is in connection with the Eucharist.

No. Both times the word meant “to give thanks.” How can you say that Christ’s words in Matthew 15:36 were concerning “The Eucharist,” when the precedent for that comes later at the Lord’s Last Passover Supper?
Marjorie >> The miracle of the loaves and the fishes is a prefiguring of the Eucharist-- that is why in the gospel of John, "the spiritual gospel," which often records what something means instead of doing things in strictly chronological order, puts this miracle in John 6, just before Christ's discussion of being the "Bread of Life."
How about we read Christ’s words for what it ‘does’ say,
“And He took the seven loaves and the fish; and giving thanks, He broke them and started giving them to the disciples, and the disciples {gave them} to the people.” Matt. 15:36.

I see a miracle taking place here, but the Greek says that He simply gave thanks. You are speaking above of ‘the Eucharist,’ which is a noun, but this Greek word “eucharisteo” is a verb. In other words, what you are trying to describe simply does not exist in the Greek; here nor in Matt. 26:27. Christ simply gave thanks there also.
Marjorie >> The fact is we have to call the Mystery something. We can't just call it "the Mystery wherein the bread and wine offered are sanctified and allow us to partake of the HeavenlyKingdom;" it would take too long. It is, however, a "sacrifice of praise"-- a thanksgiving. It is the term that evolved and I see nothing wrong with it.


Thank you very much for saying so, but that changes nothing about the Biblical evidence pertaining to this term. Even if the noun form of this word were used once in any of the Four Gospels, which it is not, then that word would still be translated ‘thankfulness.’ And again, the word ‘mystery’ is not used with reference to eating and drinking, or rituals.

God bless,

Terral
 
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Serapha

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PaladinValer said:
Bible.ca? Oh you must be joking...its run by a heretic!

Hi there!

:wave:

That would be your opinion, and you are entitled to post any type of name-calling that you wish to do... but when the table is turned and people are calling you or one of your denominational website as heretic... don't gripe... after all, they are entitled to the same priviledges.




~serapha~
 
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Serapha

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Hi there!



:wave:


I was reading tonight... "The Archaeology of the New Testament," (Blaiklock) and read the following, page 103-104 concerning the growth of Christianity in the second century to the point that the province was being Christianized, and it seems the temple custodians and butchers guild were disturbed because there were no pagan worshipers to buy meats for sacrifices.

so after a severe persecution of Christians and many, many being put to death, the following letter is sent...



So Pliny writes to Trajan... (110-112 A.D.)...

"It is certain at least that the temples, which had been almost deserted, begin now to be frequented; and the sacred festivals, after a long intermission, are again revived: while there is a general demand for sacrificial meat, which for some time past had met with but few purchases...."


Then this comment by the author,

"It was obviously all distasteful to him, for his agents had infiltrated the Christians' meetings and found no truth in the allegations of disloyalty or cannibalism viciously alleged against them. "



My point is this...

If the agents were able to determine that it was not cannibalism to partake of the sacrement of the Lord's Supper, how is John 6 upheld to be transubstantiation, or the actual blood and flesh of Christ? If that were a teaching of the time.... 110-112 A.D., then certainly the "agents" would have learned such a doctrine when they were infiltrating the church to determine if the allegations were true.


~serapha~
 
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Terral

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Hi Marjorie:
Terral Original >> Please forgive, Marjorie, but the word ‘Sacrament’ is not in my New American Standard Bible. Saying “It is biblical’ is not the kind of answer I was seeking. The word “holy” is not part of the exercise; nor “consecrate.”

Marjorie >> Sacrament is the Latin word for something consecrated, something separate and holy. The Bible is in Latin as much as it is in English.
No, the Scriptures of your New Testament were written in Greek. There are translations from the Critical Text, Textus Receptus (Received Text) and Majority Text which is what most of the translations agree upon. There are many different versions because of copy errors by the scribes back in Paul’s day; coupled with other errors that crept in here and there. Portions of the Old Testament are written in Aramaic (mainly parts of Ezra and Daniel), with some Aramaic expressions being transliterated into the Greek NT also. One example is from Christ’s words on the cross, “ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34. But, please believe me that all of the other languages are mere translations.
Marjorie >> If someone were to call Jesus "amazing," would that be unbiblical simply because the Bible does not use that word in the exact context? No, it's logically biblical; if Jesus is our Savior then he is amazing. In the same way, if Communion is what the Bible describes, then it is separate, holy, consecrated, a sacrament.
The discussion changes, however, when you take that word ‘amazing’ and turn it into a noun and create and sacrificial ritual out of it that is performed at every church service over and over and over again. Especially when your “Amacharist” becomes A Sacrament that replaces the operation of the Holy Spirit that actually baptizes us into the body. 1Cor. 12:13. At some point the congregation looses sight of what the Spirit is actually doing and they begin believing that those symbols are the real deal, and what God intended as their spiritual food. That is why we are called to show ourselves approved to God by accurately handling His word of truth 2Tim. 2:15. Are we practicing sound doctrine or not? The proof is in God’s pudding.

God bless,

Terral
 
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