Evidence For YEC

Nathan Poe said:

For the same reasons, Noah's neighbors had no reason to believe that Noah had received a message from God. He was just another lunatic ranting that the end of the world was coming. How were they supposed to know he was right?

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Noah was a preacher of righteousness. It was his message that we need to be right before God, that people rejected.

2 Peter 2:4-13
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; [6] and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; [7] and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked [8] (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)-- [9] then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, [10] and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, [11] whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
[12] But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, [13] and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,

JohnR7 said:

Noah was a preacher of righteousness. It was his message that we need to be right before God, that people rejected.

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You see, John, not everyone who says we need to get right before God is a preacher of righteousness.

I'm sure "Pope Alexander VI" would say I was all right with God if I donated to his "church," but that don't make it so.

You think Noah could've at least performed a miracle or something, just to let the folks know he was the genuine article.

Nathan Poe said:

You think Noah could've at least performed a miracle or something, just to let the folks know he was the genuine article.

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Moses performed a lot of miracles. Did that make any difference in the way people lived or did they go right on being sinners and rebelling against God. People come to our church and see the miracles of God, but it does not always mean that they are going to repent and begin to live right before God.

JohnR7 said:

Moses performed a lot of miracles. Did that make any difference in the way people lived or did they go right on being sinners and rebelling against God. People come to our church and see the miracles of God, but it does not always mean that they are going to repent and begin to live right before God.

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If the people didn't believe Moses even with miracles, then you can hardly blame Noah's neighbors for thinking he was a nut.

Nathan Poe said:

If the people didn't believe Moses even with miracles, then you can hardly blame Noah's neighbors for thinking he was a nut.

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The story I always heard was when it started to rain they were banging on the door of the ark, trying to get in, but it was to late. I do not think that is what the Bible says though. We are told they were eating, drinking giving in marriage, just living their life and the water came and swept them away just that fast.

Nathan Poe said:

If the people didn't believe Moses even with miracles, then you can hardly blame Noah's neighbors for thinking he was a nut.

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Then after them We sent Moses with Our Signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them. So see how was the end of the corrupt (Q7:103)

And never came a Messenger to them but they did mock him. (Q15:11)

When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this before. If we wished, we could say words like these. These are nothing but tales of the ancients."

Remember how they said: "O God! if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous chastisement."

But God was not going to send them a chastisement while you were amongst them; nor was He going to send it while they could ask for pardon." (Q8:31-33)


The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder man from the path of God, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have only regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;

So that God may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

Say to the Unbelievers, if now they desist from Unbelief, their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already a matter of warning for them. (Q8:36-28)


BASICALLY you're not saying anything new about the Messengers being perceived as nut cases. Their own poeple mocking them and daring them to bring down God's wrath. But those who mocked were always pleasantly surprised in the end.

Nathan Poe said:

Indeed. I was jumping the gun a bit, going more into the Participatory and Final Anthropic Principles. My bad.

But any way you slice it, it's still glaringly egocentric: The universe was created for our benefit.

That's a tough pill to swallow, at least without a little evidence to wash it down with.

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I see what you mean. were the statement to say:

"because we exist the universe must have these properties" that would be fine, because it draws the properties of the universe from a fact, wheras "the universe must have these properties" does not have a qualifying fact.... namely the existance of us. sorry, I had made the assumption that the SAP had a qualifying fact, wheras looking puerly at the statement, it doesn't.

Nathan Poe said:

You see, John, not everyone who says we need to get right before God is a preacher of righteousness.

I'm sure "Pope Alexander VI" would say I was all right with God if I donated to his "church," but that don't make it so.

You think Noah could've at least performed a miracle or something, just to let the folks know he was the genuine article.

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You can't associate the actions of the Church or power hungry "holy" men with the reasoning behind the existence of God.

Man has always diverged due to self-interest. Evry night on the news, we are given a new spin on world events. Everything can be changed to support an idea.

wblastyn said:

Probably because it was written much later when science was more advanced than that of Babylon.

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Hmmm no not really. The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years, starting in 590AD or something.

The Arabs of the 6th century were desert dwellers with no knowledge other than superstitious belief. Other than the descriptiong of the universe, other natural phenomenon are explained and offered as a challenge to disbelievers.

How could these nomads of the deserts have such an elevated level of science?

Examples:

At a time when poepl believed the earth was flat and that the mountains held up the sky:
God is the One Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see (Q13:2)


Or the fact that the earth is round:
Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night? (Q31:29).

Another verse tells us that God coils the day and night around: He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night(Q39:5).

The word `coils' in the verse above is a translation of the Arabic verb kawwara which is used in describing the action of coiling a turban around the head. To understand this statement fully, readers of the Qur'an had to think of the earth as a sphere.

Well, considering the earth was believed to be round by many by 600AD (most of the evidence was figured out by the greeks and the romans), its not that amazing.

Arikay said:

Well, considering the earth was believed to be round by many by 600AD (most of the evidence was figured out by the greeks and the romans), its not that amazing.

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You forget that all knowledge of Antiquity was lost for a few hundred years until relearned and translated by the Arabs in the 9th AD, and then passed on to Europeans during the Renaissance.

Europeans rediscovered their civilized ancestors in the Romans and Greeks. Their ideas were unheard of quite some time before then. So no, that must be amazing.

Other natural phenomenon described in the Qur'an that might be more amazing:

The fact that the universe is expanding:
And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.
(Qur'an, 51:47)


The sky as protection. Only modern science knows that some layuers protect us from radiation, others from meteors and similar threats:
We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs..
(Qur'an, 21:32)


The function of mountains, which were seen as eternal and solid until a few hundred years ago:
We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them…
(Qur'an, 21:31)

Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs?
(Qur'an, 78:6-7)

Mountains, in other words, clench the plates in the Earth's crust together by extending above and beneath the Earth's surface at the conjunction points of these plates. In this way, they fix the Earth's crust, and prevent it from drifting over the magma stratum or among its plates. Briefly, we may liken mountains to nails that keep pieces of wood together. This is Isostasy in geology.

Isostasy: general equilibrium in the Earth's crust maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface under gravitational stress.



The obvious fact that when 2 oceans meet, there is a barrier between them:
He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through.
(Qur'an, 55:19-20)


I can explain to you the natural phenomena in simpler terms and draw out how these verses are referring to them. There are many such verses whose meanings have only come to light in the past 50 years or so, thanks to scientific discovery. The Qur'an is not discredited by science, but fortified.

All these natural phenomena were unknown to the arabs of the 6th AD, or to anyone for that matter. Only modern science can reveal such secrets in nature, and only recently have these verses been understood.

So of these basic truths were not known by these nomadic, uneducated, superstitious poeple of the desert, where did it come from?

Ya Sin - p.172 #1 - “The sun hastens to its resting place: its course is laid for it by the Mighty One, the All-knowing.”

The Cow - p.352 - “Allah brings the sun up from the east....”

It takes quite a bit of interpretation to get somethings out of those verses.

Jet Black said:

Ya Sin - p.172 #1 - “The sun hastens to its resting place: its course is laid for it by the Mighty One, the All-knowing.”

The Cow - p.352 - “Allah brings the sun up from the east....”

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Yes! Those are good ones too. taken in context of course and in relation to other verses speaking of the same events, we that God set the sun on a specific orbit. Notonly that, but the entire Universe is riddled with orbits of stars and planets:

And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating. (Q21:33)

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. (Q36:40)

By the Sky with its numerous Paths and Orbits (Q51:7)

It never means that God is physically bringing the sun up from the East.

Arikay said:

It takes quite a bit of interpretation to get somethings out of those verses.

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Gee! I could've written this post for you. As though I didn't know you were gonna say that

Other good ones:

It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things.
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

Each layer in the sky has its own purpose. All 7 layers have their own "mandate".

quoted from harunyahya.com:
"Scientists have found that the atmosphere consists of several layers. The layers differ in such physical properties as pressure and the types of gasses. The layer of the atmosphere closest to Earth is called the TROPOSPHERE. It contains about 90% of the total mass of the atmosphere. The layer above the troposphere is called the STRATOSPHERE. The OZONE LAYER is the part of the stratosphere where absorption of ultraviolet rays occurs. The layer above the stratosphere is called the MESOSPHERE. The THERMOSPHERE lies above the mesosphere. The ionized gases form a layer within the thermosphere called the IONOSPHERE. The outermost part of Earth's atmosphere extends from about 480 km out to 960 km. This part is called the EXOSPHERE. (2)

1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Ozonosphere
4. Mesosphere
5. Thermosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Exosphere"


These interpretations are not hard to grasp for poeple who see the Power of God in everythign He creates.

mo.mentum said:

Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)


<snip then you define the seven heavens as:>

1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Ozonosphere
4. Mesosphere
5. Thermosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Exosphere"

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not being an expert in the Koran:

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/moon_locus.html

and not being an expert in the Quran I will leave you to it, as I do not have the knowledge to discuss the matter to any satisfactory depth. my apologies.

One thing to note, for those who arent experts in the Quran (like me, although I think I could go over most, as they seem similiar to the bible claims). The Quran is only taken Holy in its original language. So unless someone can read its original language, none of these hold too much weight, as the followers themselves do not consider the english version (or any other) to be holy. When working with a vague interpretations, we can not know for certain what the passage really implies without being able to read the original language.

mo.mentum said:

BASICALLY you're not saying anything new about the Messengers being perceived as nut cases. Their own poeple mocking them and daring them to bring down God's wrath. But those who mocked were always pleasantly surprised in the end.

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Nothing pleasant about the surprise Noah's people got.

mo.mentum said:

You can't associate the actions of the Church or power hungry "holy" men with the reasoning behind the existence of God.

Man has always diverged due to self-interest. Evry night on the news, we are given a new spin on world events. Everything can be changed to support an idea.

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You must have missed the post: "Alexander VI" is a homeless man in my neighborhood who thinks he's that Pope. Most folks around here think he's a lunatic. But if he is, as John would say, a "preacher of righteousness," then perhaps we should listen to him before God gets mad at us.