baptism necessary to be saved???

suzie,

Whether or not any church is the one that Jesus established has to be settled from scripture. It really doesn't matter what I think . . . nor what you think - Matt. 15: 13.

It is one thing to say that the church is an "organized denomination:" it is quite another to make your point from scripture. I don't believe I saw any biblical reasoning to justify your charge - 1 Pet. 4:11.

I am not interested in debate. I am interested in the truth that makes men free - Jn.8: 32. I note that you did not respond to the points about harmonizing scripture. That is the basis for our disagreement. You have focused on one aspect of salvation (faith), and have dismissed other necessary requirements (repentance, confession of Christ, and baptism, and being faithful). If you want an amen for that type of action, you need to go elsewhere to receive it.

I do believe you have done quite a bit of studying. It is my responsibility to show you where your understanding is in error. If I labor to defend myself or some stand, then my labor is in vain. But if I labor to teach the "good news" of salvation thru Jesus for all, then my labor is acceptable - 1 Cor. 15: 58. It is my responsibility . . . and your responsibility . . . to ensure that what we claim (salvation from the Lord) and do (labor in his service) is acceptable to the Lord on judgent day - Matt. 7: 21-27.

Thank you for permission to believe what the bible teaches - - for that, and that only, is my stand.

I don't know the various sources of information you may be using to gain information about the church, but why not just look in the best place of all to gain information about it - - the bible? If you have scriptural objections to the way the church is organized, worships, or labors to serve the Lord, then make your case.

FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST,

With God, all things are possible.

We're still not on the same page when it comes harmonizing scripture. Why don't you spend a few minutes and explain and harmonize these two points you made in your reply . . . ?

God does all the work John 6:29

everything else is work Eph 2:8-9 , Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5...ect

Waiting for clarification on the previous statements - 1 Cor. 14: 33,
FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

1peter 1:17-22 nothing but precious blood that washes us




Father picks us before the world .........eph 1:4
Jesus blood covers are sins
Holy Spirit Restrains satan 2thes 2:1-12
reprovesJohn 16:7-11
Baptizing acts 11:15-18
Regeneration 1 cor 12:12-13
Indwelling Gal 3:2-5 ,1 cor 12:13
sealing Eph 1:13
Filling Eph 5:18
Convincing john 16:9-11

God does all the work John 6:29

everything else is work Eph 2:8-9 , Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5...ect

Click to expand...

did you read any of these verses ???

According to Romans 3:10-11 we cannot understandeth or seeketh God but in 1cor 2:10 it says that the H.S. seartheth the deep things of God

I do not see the problem for you......you gotta help me

God works to put us into salvation But according to Romans 4:5 all we do is believe BUT wait we can not understandeth or seeketh God with out the H.S.....look up all the verses what the H.S, does for US and the H.S. point to Christ and gives HIM ALL THE CREDITsince with out the Blood 1peter 1:1:18-2:8 none of are salvation happens

And this is why Jesus said that the work is finished at the cross..

I believe there is belief but because of the convincing of the Holy Spirit not because I excepted it did Jonah accept his mission to go to warn Nineveh or did GOD convinced Jonah to go........not the same stituation but simular

I believe in Baptism BUT NOT OF MEN OR MYSELF or of WATER But of the Holy Spirit
new verse for you John 7:37-39
correspond with EPH 5:26

hope this helps

A Brethren,

Your quote:
"But according to Romans 4:5 all we do is believe"
If there is something that we must "do," that sounds like you are requiring some type of action or work. Correct? If I understand your point correctly, God does all the work, but all we have to do is believe.

You still don't have a clue about harmonizing scripture.

Yes, I have read the verses you listed . . . many times. It is the way you attempt to group them together and attach the wrong understanding with them that creates the problem.

Your new verse: Jn. 7: 37-39 is explained in more detail in Jn. 16: 7-13. It was a promise made to the apostles exclusively. The Holy Spirit baptism was given to the apostles in Acts 2. Is this what you are claiming to have?

FC

Yes The holy Spirit as well as Jesus and the Father all reside in every believer

why 1 cor 3:16 6:19, 2 cor 6:16 we are the temple of God

do I speak in tongues..... no ..... 1 cor 13:8

Florida College said:

A Brethren,

God does all the work, but all we have to do is believe.

FC

Click to expand...

the Holy spirit convinces us that we need God
without the convincing of the holy spirit we are doomed

Dictionary

de•nom•i•na•tion

Pronunciation: (di-nom"u-nA'shun), [key]
—n.
1. a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect: the Lutheran denomination.

You must be confusing me with someone else. I didnt use 1Peter.....

I have shown you what I have shown you. You will dismiss whatever I have or will show because it is not in line with your church's teachings. There are no works required for salvation . It is a gift given freely to all who desire it. Only God is able to give it and we can do nothing on our own to acquire it or keep it.

My study is of Scripture and I uphold its authority. Just as you believe I am in error, I believe you are adding works to salvation. I dont doubt you are using Scripture as your source, I just believe you are misinterpreting and misapplying it, as you would think that of me as well.

This is not the place or forum to discuss what I think of your denomination or you think of mine. I have read about your church and I do not desire to be part of it or its teachings. I am choosing to follow the way that I believe is the truth, the light , the way. We will all stand accountable before Him, so we must choose our path wisely.

The church of which aggie03 and FC have been speaking of to you is one that you most certainly have read about. You read about it everytime you read about the church in your Bible.

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. KJV

The church of Christ denomination you have read about is not the one being mentioned by aggie03 or FC. They are talking of the church of Christ discussed in the Bible. It can also be called the church of God, the body of Christ, and etc.

suzie,

Dictionary

de*nom*i*na*tor

n. - a figure beneath the line in a fraction

Denominations are based on the mathematical concept of the denominator - a fraction, or part of the whole. The denominational concept is that the church is made up of churches. That is what is being opposed. If you choose to defend it, an effective argument can only be made from scripture.

1 Peter 4:11 says that one should "speak as the oracles of God." That is what I was suggesting. If you have scriptural objections against the church, make your case from scripture.

I don't deny your time spent in study. That is obvious. You are studying passages and deriving an understanding from them. Those are major steps in bible study. But the next step is also important. You must take the understanding that you derive from a passage (or passages) of scripture and make sure that it harmonizes with all other scriptures. If it doesn't, you can rest assured that you have messed up somewhere in the process. Here is an example of how it works: Eph. 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace and faith, not by works. If I concluded that this meant all works, then I would be at a loss to harmonize that understanding with James 2:14-26. I then would really struggle to understand Philippians 2:12. I could always play like the ostrich and bury my head in the sand and pretend that these verses are just not there . . . or I could go back and study Eph. 2:8-9 and determine that in its context it is discussing works of human merit. Consider Cornelius in Acts 10:1-2. He was a good man, but still needed salvation from the Lord. He was not saved by his merits. Once I understood that Eph. 2 was discussing works of merit or honor, then I would not have trouble grasping that James 2 is talking about works of obedience. Focus on vs. 21 of James 2. Abraham was justified when he acted upon his faith. His actions were not based on human merit. Abraham was simply doing as God had commanded him. I would then realize that I needed to obey all of God's commands: have faith in his Son - Jn. 3:16, repent of my sins - Lk. 13:3,5, confess Jesus - Matt. 10:32-33, be baptized - 1 Pet. 3:20-21, and be faithful until death - Rev.2:10.
Yes, indeed. That is exactly what I would do. In fact, that is what I did . . . while still working on the last step.

Consider the Bereans. They were more noble than those in Thessalonica. Note the difference in Acts 17:10-11.

If your quote is true, "This is not the place or forum to discuss what I think of your denomination or you think of mine," then why did you use the derogatory quote from the Christian apologetics site? In response to your quote: I don't have a denomination, don't want one, and deny that the church today which is faithful to the scriptures is a denomination. Just because you call the church a denomination doesn't make it one.

Write again when you have a "convenient time" - Acts 24:25.

FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

the Holy spirit convinces us that we need God
without the convincing of the holy spirit we are doomed

Click to expand...

I agree. The Holy Spirit convinces us that we need God through the word. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17 ASV

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

let me get this straight aggie03

so you agree that with out THE HOLY SPIRIT COVINCING us we do not believe

se this FLORIDA COLLEGE very key point

NO WORK AT ALL GOD DOES IT ALL

Yes, I agree that we have to be convinced by the Holy Spirit before we can believe - however, I do not think that we are in agreement on how this happens. I believe that we are convinced by the Holy Spirit through hearing the word. This is why in Romans 10:17 it tells us that faith comes from hearing the word of Christ. We are convinced that we need salvation when we hear the gospel of Christ, which is the power unto salvation:

Romans 1:16 ASV

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

wonderful aggie03 so they hear the word of God and the H.S. convinces them of of sin ,of righteousness and of judgement according to John 16:8-11

however the H.S. uses different verses I am sure

Again, I'm not sure if you understand what I am trying to say. The only way that we can have faith is through hearing the word of God, which was provided for us through the Holy Spirit. It is the word of God which then convicts us, and it is the gospel of Christ which is the power unto our salvation. So through the word is how the Holy Spirit works.

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

1peter 1:17-22 nothing but precious blood that washes us




you are immpossible

I took the thief out of context in my zealousness

However if I am so are you mark 16:16 before or after death?

Father picks us before the world
Jesus blood covers are sins
Holy Spirit

Restrains satan 2thes 2:1-12
convincing or reproves John 16:7-11
Baptizing acts 11:15-18
Regeneration 1 cor 12:12-13
Indwelling Gal 3:2-5 ,1 cor 12:13
sealing Eph 1:13
Filling Eph 5:18

God does all the work John 6:29

everything else is work Eph 2:8-9 , Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5...ect

Click to expand...

romans 1:16 The power of the gospel of Salavation

Brethren,

YOu want to know if Jesus' teaching in Mk.16:16 was before or after his death. Actually, it was after his death: just before his ascention into heaven. Do you have a point to make, or are you ready to obey Jesus' teaching in that passage?

If it is true that God does all the work in salvation, and we don't have to do anything except believe, what do you think Jesus was thinking when he said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" as recorded in Mk.16:16. Did he forget that later he would have the apostle Paul write down the verses of Eph. 2:8-9? Please clarify.

Harmonizing the scripture is all about taking the understanding you derive from a passage of scripture and making sure that it agrees with all other scriptures. I hear what you are saying about Eph. 2:8-9. Now I would like to hear you explain what the Lord meant in Mk.16:16. If your faith and understanding is based on truth, these passages should harmonize really well.

FC

It does not mention water baptism and the Holy Spirit came in Acts 2 just as Christ said

Baptism is like 2 cor 5:7 and 1 cor 12:13 which you keep arguing about

look up verse about man
Gen 6:5 ....mans thought continuely evil..........
Gen 8:21....mans imagination is evil.......

Romans 3:10there is none righteous[by are works], no not one 11 there is none that understandeth or seeketh God.

Romans 3:23For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death.......

ezek 4:15Then he said unto me , lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung[work], and thou shalt perepare bread there with

Matt 15:19 For out of the heaRT proceeds evil thoughts,murder,....ect ect.

1 john 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselfs, and the truth is not in us.

In the old testament when they had the Law the one and only Priest would die if he came in AT WRONG TIME OR IMPROPER WAY

this shows us how Holy GOD is [set apart] to us

Read exodus 19:3-13

amazing how the Israelities beliefed they could do what the Lord wanted but all they Got was The Law and Death instead of Daddy...

do you understand

Brethren,

Yes. I do understand. Your message is loud and clear. You do not believe that the baptism that Jesus requires in Mk. 16:16 is a baptism in water. You have cited 2 Cor. 5:7 & 1 Cor. 12:13 as evidence. Now I would like for you to harmonize your understanding of those passages with Acts 8:35-39 & 1 Pet.3:20-21.

I just finished reading Ex.19:3-13. I couldn't help but notice vs. 5 - - the Israelites relationship with God was conditional . . . "if you indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant" . . . It sounds like obedience was required. But many of the Israelites were disobedient - 1 Cor. 10:1-8. Likewise, Jesus requires obedience - Heb.5:9. I can't help but wonder if there are any folks out there just like the Israelites of old - - claiming to follow God, but not obeying him? Matt.7:21-23 seems to answer that question.

Your statement:
"amazing how the Israelities beliefed they could do what the Lord wanted but all they Got was The Law and Death instead of Daddy..."

Please explain who Daddy is supposed to be. And if it is not too much trouble, why not provide a scripture to justify using such a name? And just one more request: when you find a scripture that justifies calling the LORD Daddy, please harmonize that with Psalm 111:9.

FC

Florida College said:

Brethren,

Yes. I do understand. Your message is loud and clear. You do not believe that the baptism that Jesus requires in Mk. 16:16 is a baptism in water. You have cited 2 Cor. 5:7 & 1 Cor. 12:13 as evidence. Now I would like for you to harmonize your understanding of those passages with

Click to expand...

Acts 8:35-39

water is remission of sins vs 38
comeing out of water Spirit got him
Act is transitional book between law and Grace
Baptism and salvation has different orders thru out Acts


1 Pet.3:20-21. what did the[vs19] spirits do[Jude 6-7] this is SPIRIT baptism circumsising the flesh Not water

I just finished reading Ex.19:3-13. I couldn't help but notice vs. 5 - - the Israelites relationship with God was conditional . . . "if you indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant" . . . It sounds like obedience was required. But many of the Israelites were disobedient - 1 Cor. 10:1-8. {/quote]

In keep Covenants Yes but no LAW Yet........ exudos20 is Law
Hebrews 11:29 they all had believed that God did this Miracle at the RED SEA

What God did in the wilderness was Hebrews 12:6-11

Likewise, Jesus requires obedience - Heb.5:9. I can't help but wonder if there are any folks out there just like the Israelites of old - - claiming to follow God, but not obeying him? Matt.7:21-23 seems to answer that question.

Click to expand...

we all fail ...we are all sinners romans 3:23....how does one get righteous romans 4:5 believe that God did all the work

Your statement:
"amazing how the Israelities beliefed they could do what the Lord wanted but all they Got was The Law and Death instead of Daddy..."
Please explain who Daddy is supposed to be. And if it is not too much trouble, why not provide a scripture to justify using such a name?

Click to expand...

Galations 4:6-7 we cry abba Father and thus a son

what goes with being a son Inheritance, privelge, ect..Jumping on the Father lap and hugging with out fear of death

OT Israel the Father was thee KING ....esther 4:11 explain this perfectly

And just one more request: when you find a scripture that justifies calling the LORD Daddy, please harmonize that with Psalm 111:9.

sorry on this one ?????

FC

Click to expand...

Brethren,

Thanks for harmonizing the passages. This is the only way we can attempt to derive truth.

Exactly what so you mean by "water is remission of sins?" I understand the context of Acts 8:35-36 to be this: Philip preached Jesus; as they traveled down the road they came to some water; the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" From the context, I determine that when Philip preached Jesus, he preached baptism. The baptism that he preached was in water - - that is obviously why the eunuch asks the question that he does. Now, let's examine Philip's reply: "If you believe with all your heart, you may." This harmonizes with Mk.16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved."

Your quote: "comeing out of water Spirit got him."
Please explain. If you mean that "the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away" - vs. 39, then we are in agreement. If you think that the Spirit "got the eunuch," then we are not in agreement, because that is not what the text says!

How do you determine that the book of Acts is a transitional book? Who says it is?

I don't have a clue what you mean by "baptism and salvation has different orders thru out Acts." Please explain.

1 Pet. 3:20-21 has nothing to do with "SPIRIT" baptism. The text plainly says water. The analogy is that just as water saved the eight souls on the ark, baptism saves us - not by washing the dirt from the body, but by washing a guilty conscience away (i.e. a good conscience). Here is the root cause of our disagreement. While the text plainly says water, you disregard what the text plainly says and try to "read into the passage" your understanding from another passages. I have noticed this pattern in your thinking. Consider: Other than reading the word "alone" or "only" into John 3:16, you do a good job of understanding the necessity of faith. That is because you accept the passage for what it says. You have to learn to do this with all the scriptures - - that is, if your goal is to learn God's will and to please him.

I am pleased that you did not try to justify calling the LORD "Daddy." I pray that you may continue to learn from your mistakes . . . as I learn from mine.

FC