Death Before Sin

LightBearer

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Asimov said:
The prospect, that doesn't mean Adam was immortal before he sinned, which is what we're discussing.
Only Jehovah had immortality at this time. Not even Jesus had that. Well, he died didn't he. Jesus was given immortality as a reward after his death, he being ressurected to immortal life, rewarded with the gift of immortality. (Romans 6:9; Re 1:17, 18; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16; Heb 7:15-17, 23-25)




His faithful anointed followers were also to receive this gift of immortality. They receive a ressurection like his. (Ro 6:5). They are raised immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: "Death is swallowed up forever."



Asimov said:
That doesn't make sense, God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He is the Creator of everything. He created Adam to not pass his test.
Not so, he created Adam perfect, with the ability TO pass.



Regards,

LB
 
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LightBearer

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Data said:
Except that he didn't pass, thereby meaning that he could never have passed.
You would make an exemplary Judge. Criminals would love you. You stole therefore you did not have the ability NOT to steal. It wasn't your falt, you may go free. :thumbsup:

Regards,

LB
 
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judge

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Asimov said:
If he wasn't meant to live forever, the surely he, and other creatures had to die. To not live forever means to die.

Please clarify this for me YEC's...

Hi there
:wave: I am not YE howevr I may be able to help with the traditional view.

The traditional view is that Adam was neither immortal nor mortal. He could die but he need not die.
This article, The Original Immortals explains it.
 
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Mistermystery

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LightBearer said:
Death did exist in Eden.
Ifwe assume for a second that death exsisted in Eden, then we can also assume that carnivorous animals existed. Right? I mean that way snakes and what not could eat mice, and if would explain things better to why they might havefangs and what not.

That should have lead to some additional problems to the allready crowded ark, though. Meat storage for isntance, and keeping it fresh. Or are you maybe proposing some sort of hyper evolution that happend between those stages?
 
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kingreaper

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LightBearer said:
You would make an exemplary Judge. Criminals would love you. You stole therefore you did not have the ability NOT to steal. It wasn't your falt, you may go free. :thumbsup:

Regards,

LB
Determinism doesn't say its not your choie, it says its not your choice what you choose to choose to choose to choose, and so theres still plenty of room for it to be their fault, and anyway, working under utilitarian morals it wouldn't matter if it wasn't their fault, punishing them would be a good thing overall

Would you say that if you bet on a pseudorandom number generator, which generated every number between one and ten, and which no-one could predict the next number on, coming up 5, and it came up six, would you be correct in claiming you shouldn't pay up because the odds of you winning were always 0?
 
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Asimov

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LightBearer said:
You would make an exemplary Judge. Criminals would love you. You stole therefore you did not have the ability NOT to steal. It wasn't your falt, you may go free. :thumbsup:

Regards,

LB

Except that 10 times out of 10, judges are shown to not be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

When God created, he knew that Adam would not pass his "test", so God created Adam to not pass the test. He could have changed it...but he didn't want to, for some odd reason.
 
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Mistermystery

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Asimov said:
Except that 10 times out of 10, judges are shown to not be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

When God created, he knew that Adam would not pass his "test", so God created Adam to not pass the test. He could have changed it...but he didn't want to, for some odd reason.
God apperently loves to see us suffer.
 
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LightBearer

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Asimov said:
Except that 10 times out of 10, judges are shown to not be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

When God created, he knew that Adam would not pass his "test", so God created Adam to not pass the test. He could have changed it...but he didn't want to, for some odd reason.
God is not omnipresent.

Just because God is omipotemt does that mean he has to use all his power to it's limit on all occasions when he uses it. Clearly not. He is selective in how much power to use.

Same goes for his Omniscience, he has the ability to know or forsee everything but often uses it in a limited sense. Selective foreknowledge.

Examples in scripture are of God using selective foreknowledge and not pre-judging a situation are:
Genesis 22:12 And he went on to say: "Do not put out your hand against the boy and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me."
Genesis 18:20-21 Consequently Jehovah said: "The cry of complaint about Sod´om and Go·mor´rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."
Regards,​
LB​

 
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Vance

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Which raises another point. A literal, "plain" reading of Genesis would require us to accept a God that has human-like emotion, is NOT omniscient, can change his mind, can regret having done something and wish he had never done it, etc, etc. That is what a literal reading would require, but we do not beleive these things, because we interpret these texts in non-literal ways.

Which shows how YEC's are inconsistent in their own position regarding literalism.
 
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Asimov

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LightBearer said:
God is not omnipresent.
Says who?

Just because God is omipotemt does that mean he has to use all his power to it's limit on all occasions when he uses it. Clearly not. He is selective in how much power to use.
I'm not quite sure what omipotemt is...but I assume it's synonymous with omnipotent :D

Selective in how muc hpower to use, maybe, but if he needs to get a job done, he gets it done, and doesn't limit his powers.

Same goes for his Omniscience, he has the ability to know or forsee everything but often uses it in a limited sense. Selective foreknowledge.
If you can show me logically, not biblically, how a God, or ANY entity, can not know something it always knows, then do so, right now.

All-knowing does not mean he "magically" looks into the future and "sees" with his third eye the path of one single person. God is timeless, meaning he is not bound by past, present or future. From this, one can speculate that because this is true, he views all events (relatively to humans: past, present and future) as one single event. It's like reading every page of a book at the same time.

There is nothing to 'un-know', he knows all.

If, by your scripture, you suggest that God shows that he doesn't know things, then he is not omniscient.
 
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LightBearer

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Asimov said:
Says who?
Say's he through scripture. God is not omnipresent, he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24)

Asimov said:
I'm not quite sure what omipotemt is...but I assume it's synonymous with omnipotent :D

Selective in how muc hpower to use, maybe, but if he needs to get a job done, he gets it done, and doesn't limit his powers.
Matthew 7:3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?

That's the problem you see, no one is perfect. Therefore it makes one look a fool when they point out the mistakes in others while they make mistakes of there own.

At Matt 7:3 the bible demonstrates itself to be a marvelous book of council dont you think?

Asimov said:
Selective in how muc hpower to use, maybe, but if he needs to get a job done, he gets it done, and doesn't limit his powers.
The fact that he uses only enough power to "Get the job done" as you say supports what I stated. Selective use of his omnipotence. (Note: omnipotence spelled correctly) :thumbsup:

When God for example used his power to destroy Sodom, clearly it was limited, he did not use all his power or else not only Sodom would have been destroyed but I sugest much more.


Asimov said:
If you can show me logically, not biblically, how a God, or ANY entity, can not know something it always knows, then do so, right now.
No one can not know something it knows.

Asimov said:
All-knowing does not mean he "magically" looks into the future and "sees" with his third eye the path of one single person. God is timeless, meaning he is not bound by past, present or future. From this, one can speculate that because this is true, he views all events (relatively to humans: past, present and future) as one single event. It's like reading every page of a book at the same time.

There is nothing to 'un-know', he knows all.

If, by your scripture, you suggest that God shows that he doesn't know things, then he is not omniscient.
You have an arbitrary veiw of God's omniscience. God has the ability to know everthing but often chooses to use his omniscience selectivly (just as he does with his omnipotence) and not prejudge a situation but to wait to see how it unfolds.

By the fact that he could know if he chooses to, puts omniscient power in his hands.

Regards,

LB
 
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Asimov

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LightBearer said:
That's the problem you see, no one is perfect. Therefore it makes one look a fool when they point out the mistakes in others while they make mistakes of there own.


I'm not pointing out mistakes, nor am I claiming I'm perfect. I'm pointing out what I logically think is true. I asked you where it says that God is not omniscient. If God has a location, where is this location? Inside the Universe? Outside the Universe??

At Matt 7:3
the bible demonstrates itself to be a marvelous book of council dont you think?

that quote is nothing original.

The fact that he uses only enough power to "Get the job done" as you say supports what I stated. Selective use of his omnipotence. (Note: omnipotence spelled correctly) :thumbsup:

When God for example used his power to destroy Sodom, clearly it was limited, he did not use all his power or else not only Sodom would have been destroyed but I sugest much more.
If we agree, then we no longer need to go into depth about his omnipotence. This matter is closed.


You have an arbitrary veiw of God's omniscience. God has the ability to know everthing but often chooses to use his omniscience selectivly (just as he does with his omnipotence) and not prejudge a situation but to wait to see how it unfolds.
This matter, however, is not closed. You are limiting God by saying he is bound by time. God is timeless, as shown in the metaphorical passage that a "day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day".

Omniscience is not a power to be used selectively. To be all-knowing means to be all-knowing. The two (omniscience, and omnipotent) are two very different things. One is power, the other is knowledge. I will reinforce this by saying again that omniscience is not 'a' power. Being all-knowing contains power, but being all-knowing is not in and of itself a power.

I know I repeated myself a few times there, but I want to get the point across.

God is not a psychic who divines answers to the future. With God, there is no past, present, or future. It is all one thing. By saying he 'can' look into the future is a limitation in that he is bound by time. This is not true, God is not bound by time, and therefore does not look into the future.

By the fact that he could know if he chooses to, puts omniscient power in his hands.
No, by the fact that he is omniscient, puts power into his hands.
 
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w81minit

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Asimov said:
So what....no creationists want to attempt to explain this obvious discrepancy to their little belief?????
Put simply Adam and Eve had already begun to die. If they then would have partaken from the Tree of life they would not die, but live forever. If you take it allegorically or just spiritually, then if Man had eaten fo the tree of life then it would have fixed the Spiritual death problem.

It didn't or wouldn't have. The fact that there was spiritual death occurred not because of the fruit, but because of the disobedience. Once the disobedience occured, man was spiritually dead. He no longer was able to commune with God as he did previously. His body also began the process of death. It is true today, the day you are born, you immediately begin tot die.
This was not the case in the garden.
Now that Adam had begun to die, and was no longer in communion with God, he needed a physical fix and a Spiritual fix. The spiritual fix occurs when a believer is saved (accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior). The physical fix does not occur until after the judgement when we will receive our glorified bodies.

It is not spiritual alone.
 
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w81minit

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LightBearer said:
Only if and when Adam had passed the test of obedeince by not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, thus proving faithful, would he have been allowed to eat of the tree of life, symbolising God's finnally granting upon him the gift of everlasting life.
Can you provide a reference for this?
 
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theFijian

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LightBearer said:
Say's he through scripture. God is not omnipresent, he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24)
God's omnipresence is an important part of orthodox Christian belief.

Acts 17:27
God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Psalm 139:7,8
Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

The references you gave do not apply to a physical location, God is not a physical being.
 
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LightBearer

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Asimov said:
This matter, however, is not closed. You are limiting God by saying he is bound by time. God is timeless, as shown in the metaphorical passage that a "day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day".
God is bound TO time. He is the Grand Timekeeper. Jehovah is known as "the Ancient of Days" and the God of Eternity. (Da 7:9; Ps 90:2; 93:2) That he is the most accurate Timekeeper is evident not only from the superb precision seen in the movements of the stellar bodies such as our Solar System but also from the divine record of his acts. In the fulfillment of his promises and prophecies, he caused events to occur spot on time, whether the intervening time was of only a day (Ex 9:5, 6), a year (Ge 17:21; 18:14; 21:1, 2; 2Ki 4:16, 17), decades (Nu 14:34; 2Ch 36:20-23; Da 9:2), centuries (Ge 12:4, 7; 15:13-16; Ex 12:40, 41; Ga 3:17), or millenniums (Lu 21:24).

Asimov said:
Omniscience is not a power to be used selectively.
And yet he does exactly that.
Genesis 22:12 And he went on to say: "Do not put out your hand against the boy and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me."

Only after Abraham had been tested did Jehovah then fully know the extent to abrahams faith. He did not prejudge him but allowed Abrahams own course and actions to demonstrate such.

Genesis 18:20-21 Consequently Jehovah said: "The cry of complaint about Sod´om and Go·mor´rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."

Note here: Jehovah decides to investigate the complaints about Sodom to see if they are as bad as he had heard. To get to know the extent of the depravity going on there. Although having the ability to foreknow this situation he again demostrates the seletive use of his abilty to foreknow.

Asimov said:
To be all-knowing means to be all-knowing. The two (omniscience, and omnipotent) are two very different things. One is power, the other is knowledge. I will reinforce this by saying again that omniscience is not 'a' power. Being all-knowing contains power, but being all-knowing is not in and of itself a power.
see above.

Asimov said:
I know I repeated myself a few times there, but I want to get the point across.

God is not a psychic who divines answers to the future. It is all one thing. By saying he 'can' look into the future is a limitation in that he is bound by time. This is not true, God is not bound by time, and therefore does not look into the future.

No, by the fact that he is omniscient, puts power into his hands
God is in control of the future. He has already told us what future he has purposed for mankind. Not because he is "a psychic" as you say but because of his omnipotence and omniscience he can bring about any futre he desires. No one can stay his hand.
Daniel 4:34-35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are being considered as merely nothing, and he is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth. And there exists no one that can check his hand or that can say to him, ‘What have you been doing?’




It is in this sense that he knows the future. The future as he has fortold in scripture therefore is a foregon conclusion because he will with his omnipotence and omniscience bring about the very future that he wants.

Asimov said:
With God, there is no past, present, or future.
Jehovah is a God of the Past, Present and Future. The Bible is a gift from him that very much concerns the Past, Present and Future and as demonstrated above he is very concerned with time.
 
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LightBearer

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theFijian said:
God's omnipresence is an important of orthodox Christian belief.

Acts 17:27
God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Psalm 139:7,8
Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

The references you gave do not apply to a physical location, God is not a physical being.
None of these scriptures you use here demonstrate that God has to be in these places or locations to accomplish these things. He can do all these things from his "established place of dwelling" Heaven. (1 Kings 8:49)

Regards,

LB
 
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Vance

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OK, YEC's this is what happens when you insist upon a literal reading. Shall you take up this challenge and explain why that is NOT the plain, literal reading? Make sure, now, that you don't just "interpret" it away, since YEC's make it clear that we must take all Scripture at it's plain, literal meaning. You must explain why the plain, literal meaning is something OTHER than God is not omniscient and not omnipresent.

Then, once you do that, explain how, if the text is so clear for the simplest mind to apprehend, that two different groups bent on literalism come up with different "plain, literal" readings.
 
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