Who Dunit?

Reformationist · Aug 10, 2003

Who is responsible for introducing evil into the World?

Please support your answer by addressing these criteria:

Opportunity - Were they present when evil was introduced into the world?

Means - Do they have the power to bring it to pass?

Motive - Do they have a reason to want it to come to pass? If so, what reason?

Thanks for your time,
God bless

Drotar · Aug 10, 2003

Good question.

God allowed it to happen. But the actual act itself was a free decision of Adam.

Undoubtedly, Satan influenced the Fall. Eve was deceived; for Adam it was blatant disobedience.

Here's the real question:

Who caused the Fall in the angelic realm? How did Satan fall? I cannot answer this. You're a fan of Edwards and the contingencies and causes of action, motivation, and the will. What caused Satan to desire to fall and rebel? How did he get that evil desire to begin with? It couldn't have been God Himself, and it can't have been an inherent quality that he was created with. How did Satan fall? Saying "free will" is futile. Whenever someone blames action on free will, they purport to explain something by not explaining it. Where did that initial desire and resulting action for rebellion have its roots?

That's my question.

And don't let the smiley fool you, I have NO CLUE what the answer is. I'm asking because I don't know. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Lotar · Aug 11, 2003

A complex question. Perhaps I should have thought longer before answering.
Adam - did not intervene while Eve was tempted, and did not resist eating.
Eve - Gave into temtation, wishing to be as God.
Satan - Wished to destroy God's creation, and tempted Eve.
God - Allowed Adam and Eve the choice to did obey Him.

Knight · Aug 11, 2003

I don't know that I really like the wording of this question. It seems like one could make an argument for any of them. However, God held Adam accountable.

Genesis 3:8-11
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

God went to Adam and called him to account.

Paul also spoke of Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Therefore, if you assume that sin is evil and evil is sin, then evil was introduced by Adam's sin.

You could claim that satan introduced the idea of evil (sin) into the world through temptation. However, I think that is as far as you could take that. Adam and Eve still had free will to choose.

This is just my $0.20.

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

Drotar said:
But the actual act itself was a free decision of Adam.

Was Adam created "good?"

Undoubtedly, Satan influenced the Fall. Eve was deceived; for Adam it was blatant disobedience.

So Adam had an unrighteous motive for disobeying God? How is that possible if he was created "good?" According to the Gospel Adam would have originally had only good and acceptable motives for his choices. Adam could not change either his or Eve's motive for disobeying God from a good desire (a desire to please and obey God) to a bad desire (a desire to displease and disobey God) because Adam, and Eve, only had good desires.

Here's the real question:

Who caused the Fall in the angelic realm?

Umm...that is a related question that can be answered if necessary.

How did Satan fall? I cannot answer this. You're a fan of Edwards and the contingencies and causes of action, motivation, and the will. What caused Satan to desire to fall and rebel? How did he get that evil desire to begin with?

Satan, like Adam and Eve, was created "good." So, originally, he would have only had righteous inclinations. Anyone got an opinion on how satan could have rebelled when he was originally created "good."

It couldn't have been God Himself

Why not? Why can it not have been God?

Where did that initial desire and resulting action for rebellion have its roots?

That is the question that I am asking here.

God bless

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

Lotar said:
A complex question. Perhaps I should have thought longer before answering.
Adam - did not intervene while Eve was tempted, and did not resist eating.
Eve - Gave into temtation, wishing to be as God.
Satan - Wished to destroy God's creation, and tempted Eve.
God - Allowed Adam and Eve the choice to did obey Him.

Okay. So, which of those are responsible for introducing evil into the world? :scratch:

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

Knight said:
Therefore, if you assume that sin is evil and evil is sin, then evil was introduced by Adam's sin.

You could claim that satan introduced the idea of evil (sin) into the world through temptation. However, I think that is as far as you could take that. Adam and Eve still had free will to choose.

This is just my $0.20.

And how could a created being that is "good," which naturally has only good inclinations freely choose to sin? Jesus said that a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, right? So, how can Adam or Eve have done something sinful in the first place?

God bless

Knight · Aug 11, 2003

Reformationist said:
And how could a created being that is "good," which naturally has only good inclinations freely choose to sin? Jesus said that a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, right? So, how can Adam or Eve have done something sinful in the first place?

God bless

But they did sin didn't they?

I'm not really sure where you're going with this thread, Don.

Adam and Eve were not forced into disobedience. They made the choice. Therefore it is not safe to say that they had only good inclinations. The Genesis account says that Eve desired the fruit for it's appeal and for the wisdom it would give her. Adam was with her the whole time.

God gave them free will. They chose to use that free will to disobey God. The Bible says that sin entered the world when this happened. Therefore, I would say that they chose to become bad fruit. (Am I too far off base here?)

Did God know this would happen? Of course He did. Why did He create man knowing he would fall? I don't know but I'll ask Him when I see Him.

CCWoody · Aug 11, 2003

Reformationist said:
Who is responsible for introducing evil into the World?

Please support your answer by addressing these criteria:

Opportunity - Were they present when evil was introduced into the world?

Means - Do they have the power to bring it to pass?

Motive - Do they have a reason to want it to come to pass? If so, what reason?

Thanks for your time,
God bless

Umm, "D", before I can vote or participate, I need to know how you are defining "World". Thanks!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Lotar · Aug 11, 2003

Reformationist said:
Okay. So, which of those are responsible for introducing evil into the world?

I would say Adam and Eve, ultimately it was their choice. Eve first, then Adam.

ZiSunka · Aug 11, 2003

Who is responsible for introducing evil into the World?

Do you mean evil or sin?

I'd have a different answer for each.

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

Knight said:
But they did sin didn't they?

Yes. They did.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this thread, Don.

I'm not "going" anywhere with this thread other than where I thought I made clear. How can Adam and Eve, who were created good, and thus had only good desires, have decided to disobey God.

Adam and Eve were not forced into disobedience. They made the choice.

Yes, that's true.

Therefore it is not safe to say that they had only good inclinations.

Okay. Is it safe to say that they were created with only good inclinations and that at some point between their creation and their transgression that inclination changed?

The Genesis account says that Eve desired the fruit for it's appeal and for the wisdom it would give her. Adam was with her the whole time.

Okay. Is Eve's recognition of the fruit as pleasing and good for food and wisdom a sinful thing?

God gave them free will. They chose to use that free will to disobey God.

So a creation that is created by God and deemed "good" has the desire, and therefore the ability, to do that which is not "good," i.e., disobey God?

The Bible says that sin entered the world when this happened. Therefore, I would say that they chose to become bad fruit. (Am I too far off base here?)

No. I just am trying to understand what you're saying. It seems as if you are saying that even though Adam and Eve were created good that at some point they just changed there natural inclination to choose obediently and chose to become bad fruit.

Did God know this would happen? Of course He did. Why did He create man knowing he would fall? I don't know but I'll ask Him when I see Him.

I have an opinion. Maybe I'll start another thread.

God bless

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

CCWoody said:
Umm, "D", before I can vote or participate, I need to know how you are defining "World". Thanks!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Umm...the Garden.

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

Lotar said:
I would say Adam and Eve, ultimately it was their choice. Eve first, then Adam.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were created to ever naturally desire to disobey God?

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

lambslove said:
Do you mean evil or sin?

I'd have a different answer for each.

Why don't you share both with us. I'm not sure of the difference because all evil is sin and all sin is evil.

God bless

CCWoody · Aug 11, 2003

Reformationist said:
Umm...the Garden.

Actually, I figured out before you answered that I really didn't need the answer. hehehe! Why do I say that: Well, the LORD is obviously the first cause of all things. Were He not absolutely Sovereign over all of Creation at all times, then He would cease to be God.

The LORD Himself declares that this is part of what it means to be God:

Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;
Yes, do good or do evil,
That we may be dismayed and see it together. ~ Isaiah 41:23

This is why I voted for God as the one who "introduced" evil into Eden. Yikes, but you picked a HOT topic.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

CCWoody said:
Actually, I figured out before you answered that I really didn't need the answer. hehehe! Why do I say that: Well, the LORD is obviously the first cause of all things. Were He not absolutely Sovereign over all of Creation at all times, then He would cease to be God.

The LORD Himself declares that this is part of what it means to be God:

Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;
Yes, do good or do evil,
That we may be dismayed and see it together. ~ Isaiah 41:23

This is why I voted for God as the one who "introduced" evil into Eden. Yikes, but you picked a HOT topic.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Pssst...if it helps in any way, I personally agree with exactly what you said. Shh! This is a difficult topic so don't tell anyone.

God bless

Drotar · Aug 11, 2003

First, do you know the answer? I'm still trying to think it out and find it wherever I read.

Adam was created good. So was Lucifer. They had to be- everything that leaves God's hand has to by all necessity be good.

I mean to say that God could not have given them motives of rebellion and the desire to sin.

I guess that if you want an answer, I'm going to plead "stupid" and confess that I don't know the answer. I'm kinda hoping that you might be able to oblige me. That's the one question/objection against Calvinism I have no answer to. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Reformationist · Aug 11, 2003

By the way, if people could address the following criteria for their choice for responsibility I would greatly appreciate it:

Opportunity - Were they present when evil was introduced into the world?

Means - Do they have the power to bring it to pass?

Motive - Do they have a reason to want it to come to pass? If so, what reason?

God bless,
Don

ZiSunka · Aug 11, 2003

Reformationist said:
Why don't you share both with us. I'm not sure of the difference because all evil is sin and all sin is evil.

God bless

LOL! If you say so...

I know you'll end up ridiculing me for having a different take on this than you have but I'll take the chance anyway.

Sin was created by Adam, by rebelling against God or assuming that God is mistaken about how things should be. Not all sin has evil intent, at least not this definition of evil. "Arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct with bad or hamrful intent" (Websters). I don't know that Adam's sin was an evil act, but it was certainly a rebellious act. A lot of sins are committed with good intent, but are sins none the less. It is even possible to sin without knowing that it is sin.

Evil on the other hand, is created by human beings every time they choose to do evil, that is, things that they know are destructive or harmful. Humans have creative abilities, endowed to them by God as part of being created in His image. We have the ability to create good with our lives, or to create evil. Everytime you do what you know is not right, every time you choose to do what God has said is wrong, everytime you act with evil in your heart, everytime you intentionally harm others, you are creating evil. It's part of your freewill, another character trait of God given to us in His image.

Who Dunit?

Who is responsible for introducing evil into the world?

Adam

Eve

Satan

God

The birds, bees, rocks, and trees (impersonal matter)

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Drotar

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Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Knight of the Cross

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Swift Eagle Justice

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Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Drotar

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Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

It means 'yellow dog'

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