Literal Interpretations and Bats being Birds

Bats are:

  • birds.

  • mammals.

  • confused.

  • figments of your secular imagination!!!


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TooCurious

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I noticed the Science category on this site, and I was thinking about things like evolution and "creationism" and the bible, and then I remembered something I read awhile ago on the Skeptics' Annotated Bible site.

It occurred to me that some people take the bible word-for-word literally, and claim that there are no errors or mistakes, because it is the "divinely inspired word of God." Now, we'd all expect that God would be able to accurately identify and classify all of his creations, right? What follows is a taxonomic nightmare that I'm hoping some of the christian members of our audience can sort out.

For those of you playing at home, I'll ask you to open your bibles and follow along. My reference for this, as noted, is the Skeptics' Annotated Bible (www.skepticsannotatedbible.com), where I believe they use the King James Version. Let's turn to Leviticus, and take a look at 11:5-6, where coneys and hares are described as animals that "cheweth the cud." Last I checked, hares and coneys don't do that. In case you think that's a typo, check out Deuteronomy 14:7, where the error is repeated.

Now here's the one that really threw me. Leviticus 11:13,19 and Deuteronomy 14:11,18 both state that you're allowed to eat "clean" birds, then proceed to list the "unclean" birds that you shouldn't eat. The last item on this list is the bat. Now, call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that bats are mammals, not birds. That's kind of a big difference, isn't it?

Leviticus goes on from there to discuss fowl that go on four legs, and "creeping things" (insects?) with four legs, whereas last I checked, those had two legs and six, respectively.

Now, taken in the context of a book of fables and morality stories, such scientific inaccuracies are not only forgivable but expected. Not a problem. However, when people try to base a scientific theory around a book with such glaring errors, and then try to teach said theory to children, this is where we need to take a step back and think about things.

Creationism, an attempt at explaining how the world came into being from a (somewhat) scientific perspective, has its roots in the bible, a book which tells us that rabbits are ruminants and bats are birds. Does anyone else see a problem here? :scratch:

I'm interested in hearing people who adhere to a literal interpretation of the bible explain how they deal with this taxonomic hiccup. Is this part not meant to be taken literally? Or are bats really birds, and all along we've only been pretending that they have fur and teeth?
 

TooCurious

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Arikay said:
I have heard some Ok apologetics about the two. But I have yet to hear good apologetics for other problems in the bible.

My current favorite is the Bible and a Flat Earth. :)

Can you tell me what some of the responses you've heard were? I'm really curious to hear how people explain away these glaring inaccuracies, and then in the same breath claim that this book is a valid text on which to base any kind of scientific theory (however fallacious some of us may consider that theory to be).
 
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Arikay

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As far as the Hares I have heard answers ranging from, The Hebrew word that was translated to Hare doesnt really mean Hare and is just a general term, to, Hares really do Ruminate and its a misunderstanding that they dont.

As far as Bats are birds, the common answer is that the Hebrew word translated into bird actually means "flying creature" or some variation on that and is correct in the sense that bats do fly.

However its very interesting that they fall back on the Hebrew here, as often when trying to say the bible Doesnt say the Earth is flat, they ignore the definitions of the Original Hebrew words.

A good resource I have found is www.blueletterbible.org if you choose a verse, go to it and then click on the "C" icon next to it, you can get the hebrew words and if you click on them, you can get the Strongs Definition of the Hebrew word.

TooCurious said:
Can you tell me what some of the responses you've heard were? I'm really curious to hear how people explain away these glaring inaccuracies, and then in the same breath claim that this book is a valid text on which to base any kind of scientific theory (however fallacious some of us may consider that theory to be).
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Well, I'm not an inerrantist, but I think these discrepancies are minor and unimportant.

Words do not have a one to one correspondence from one language to another. The term translated "birds" in English could well mean "flying thing that's not an insect" in another language. Languages, especially in a pre-scientific age, are often imprecise.

Similarly with rabbits and chewing the cud. Rabbits actually reprocess their droppings. It's a similar process, to the non-scientist. Doesn't really matter. Cows rechew stuff from one of their stomachs; rabbits rechew stuff that's been a bit further through their system. Cud schmud....

There's plenty of real contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible without harping on about these fairly weak ones.
 
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Siliconaut

Not to be confused with the other Norman Hartnell
@Karl:
There's plenty of real contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible without harping on about these fairly weak ones
Yep. They are what they are, though: Constant reminders that the bible was written *for* a time and place, in a language of that time and place, by people with imperfect knowledge about the universe.

There's no hope for literalism, as it relies on inerrantness of *everything* in the bible, when the errors of a literal interpretation are so blindingly obvious.

(Disclaimer: Personal, slightly plagiarized opinion ahead) Well, that's a typical trait of humans: When we have bought a dead horse, instead of wanting our money back, we try to re-saddle the horse, have committees declare the horse very much alive indeed, convince ourselves the horse is merely sleeping and then ride the cadaver to work in the back of a pickup truck. ;D
 
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J

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Siliconaut said:
(Disclaimer: Personal, slightly plagiarized opinion ahead) Well, that's a typical trait of humans: When we have bought a dead horse, instead of wanting our money back, we try to re-saddle the horse, have committees declare the horse very much alive indeed, convince ourselves the horse is merely sleeping and then ride the cadaver to work in the back of a pickup truck. ;D

cue the monty python dead parrot sketch.
 
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J

Jet Black

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
The term translated "birds" in English could well mean "flying thing that's not an insect" in another language. Languages, especially in a pre-scientific age, are often imprecise.

exactly, words like "cosmic microwave background" "dinosaur" "monkey" and "mitichondrial deoxyribose nucleic acid" did not exist then.... so why would they be in the bible, because these things would be impossible for people of the time to contemplate. I think God is smart enough to realise that trying to include these sorts of things in the bible would have made the bible a mockery to the people of the time, and that most people in the modern day would be able to realise this and take the bible to be a theological message. The intent of the book seems to me to be a partial historical account, and method to get people to believe in God and his message of love kindness and caring for your fellow man, rather than a physics textbook in disguise. why should God care if you believe in evolution and science or not? is not believing in evolution a premise for getting into heaven?
 
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Arikay

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So, do you believe the earth is flat or round?

If you say round, the bible differs from you, so you should probably start believing its flat. :)

Dayton said:
If the Bible says bats are birds and hares are ruminates, then that is what I believe. I believe the Word of God over the word of man (science).

There is no proof that hares do not chew cud, science has been wrong about these things before.
 
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wblastyn

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Dayton said:
If the Bible says bats are birds and hares are ruminates, then that is what I believe. I believe the Word of God over the word of man (science).

There is no proof that hares do not chew cud, science has been wrong about these things before.
Stop worshipping the Bible, it was written by fallible men, who obviously made mistakes due to scientific ignorance. You're turning it into an idol by saying it's infallible, as if it was literally sent down from heaven by God himself.

Why do you think the Bible has some sort of magical properties that make it resistant to error? It was written by fallible humans, then fallible humans had to decide which books were scripture and which weren't (how do you know they got it right, being fallible and all), it was then translated by fallible humans and is now interpreted by fallible humans. You don't see a problem here?
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Dayton said:
If the Bible says bats are birds and hares are ruminates, then that is what I believe. I believe the Word of God over the word of man (science).

There is no proof that hares do not chew cud, science has been wrong about these things before.

Depends on your definitions.

If 'bird', as in English, means "feathered flying homeotherm", then bats are not birds. Period.

If 'bird' means "flying homeotherm", or "flying animal other than an insect", then bats are birds.

You really think we'd not have noticed hares chewing the cud? Ruminants have a particular stomach arrangement. Is Satan blinding the eyes of every scientist who's ever dissected a hare? Seriously. Hares do not chew the cud as we understand it. Who knows what "chew the cud" meant to the writers of the Torah?
 
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J

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Dayton said:
If the Bible says bats are birds and hares are ruminates, then that is what I believe. I believe the Word of God over the word of man (science).

ru·mi·nant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rm-nnt)
n.
Any of various hoofed, even-toed, usually horned mammals of the suborder Ruminantia, such as cattle, sheep, goats, deer, and giraffes, characteristically having a stomach divided into four compartments and chewing a cud consisting of regurgitated, partially digested food.


hares do not: have hooves, have an even number of toes, have horns, exist as members of the suborder ruminatia, are not cattle sheep goats deer or giraffes, have a four compartmented stomach, or chew on regurgitated partially digested food. By definition they are not ruminants, and therefore by definition they do not chew cud.
 
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chud247

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I agree with wblastyn's post. The bible, due to sin, does have some mistakes that do not really matter in the event of getting ones self into heaven. The original word for bird may have been flying animal or the original word for bat may have been an actual literal flying bird. Maybe the person who wrote the verse in the bible thought a bat was a bird. And the same goes for the hare. The original word for hare could have been a deer and through mistranslation, it came out to be hare. We do not not know... nor does it matter.

We also know that the red sea from the hebrew translation actually is the REED sea. A totally different, smaller sea then what we believe as to what moses split. But then again... the REED sea may have become the red sea from mistranslation over the years... but again, why does it matter?
 
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jon1101

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The Bible is not a science book. Somehow I think the intended audience of the Pentateuch understood what the author meant, and I don't find it terribly reasonable to expect a document initially written for ancient goat herders to be up to snuff with modern taxomony.

-jon
 
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