baptism necessary to be saved???
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Florida College
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A brethren in Christ,
Please carefully consider the context of the scriptures you have given me.
Context means to weave together. 1. The parts of a sentence, paragraph, discourse, etc. that occur just before and after a specified word or passage, and determine its exact meaning; as it is unfair to quote this remark out of its context. 2. The whole situation, background, or environment relevant to some happening or personality.
Each book, chapter, verse should be studied in view of its own surroundings. A word, phrase or sentence taken out of its setting may appear to have a very different meaning. When examined in its context the meaning should be evident.
You believe that all you need to have is "faith" only to be pleasing to the Lord....
You use the scriptures: Rom. 4:5, Eph. 2:8-10, Titus 3:5; I have read through these scriptures several times, and I am having problems finding "faith only." Instead I find verses that you have taken out of context. You cannot harmonize "faith only" to fit John 12:42-43. I have emphasized this verse over and over b/c it is a perfect example that "faith alone" will not save one's soul. They were not righteous; vs (43) - For they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
You cannot harmonize "faith only" with: James 2:24, Heb. 11: 4-32;
Faith and works cannot be seperated; I am not arguing with the scriptures. I am harmonizing the scriptures. I ask that you reconsider your verses
Please carefully consider the context of the scriptures you have given me.
Context means to weave together. 1. The parts of a sentence, paragraph, discourse, etc. that occur just before and after a specified word or passage, and determine its exact meaning; as it is unfair to quote this remark out of its context. 2. The whole situation, background, or environment relevant to some happening or personality.
Each book, chapter, verse should be studied in view of its own surroundings. A word, phrase or sentence taken out of its setting may appear to have a very different meaning. When examined in its context the meaning should be evident.
You believe that all you need to have is "faith" only to be pleasing to the Lord....
You use the scriptures: Rom. 4:5, Eph. 2:8-10, Titus 3:5; I have read through these scriptures several times, and I am having problems finding "faith only." Instead I find verses that you have taken out of context. You cannot harmonize "faith only" to fit John 12:42-43. I have emphasized this verse over and over b/c it is a perfect example that "faith alone" will not save one's soul. They were not righteous; vs (43) - For they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
You cannot harmonize "faith only" with: James 2:24, Heb. 11: 4-32;
Faith and works cannot be seperated; I am not arguing with the scriptures. I am harmonizing the scriptures. I ask that you reconsider your verses
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F
Florida College
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The steps of salvation
1) First you have hear the gospel.
Rom 10:17 - So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ
2) Second, you have to believe.
Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe that is and that he is a rewarded of those who seek him.
3) Then you have to repent..
Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."
4) Then you have to make the confession
Acts 8:37 - And Phillip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God."
5) Last, you have to be baptized.
Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
1) First you have hear the gospel.
Rom 10:17 - So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ
2) Second, you have to believe.
Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe that is and that he is a rewarded of those who seek him.
3) Then you have to repent..
Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."
4) Then you have to make the confession
Acts 8:37 - And Phillip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God."
5) Last, you have to be baptized.
Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
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F
Florida College
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A brethren,
You asked "do we save our selves or does god chose us?"
No... we do not save ourselves.
Does God choose us?
Lets take a look
Acts 10:34-35: Opening his mouth, Peter said: I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35) but every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is welcome to him.
You asked "do we save our selves or does god chose us?"
No... we do not save ourselves.
Does God choose us?
Lets take a look
Acts 10:34-35: Opening his mouth, Peter said: I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35) but every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is welcome to him.
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Aggie-
You certainly have a way with words aggie.
This is a quote from a Christian apologetics site.
"The Church of Christ denomination (CHOCD) claims that they can trace their roots back to the original New Testament church, in the same way that the Catholic Church claims that they can trace the papacy back to the Apostle Peter. Both claims are equally spurious. The reality of their origins is that the CHOCD was nowhere to be found before 1906. They broke away from the denomination known as the Christian Church. But right off the bat, this is where we get into one of their greatest controversies. They claim that they are not a denomination, but rather they are the TRUE Body of Christ! To justify this outlandish claim, they rest very heavily on the notion that they have the only biblically correct name of any church
or forms of church government (Presbyterian) and claim that the only scriptural name given to the church is the name that they bear. Since the word Christ simply means "messiah", that translates into The Church of the Messiah. But which Messiah? A better name would be The Church of Jesus Christ, which would also be a scriptural name.
As would: "The Church of God" (I Cor. 1:2) "The Church of the Faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1) "The Church of the Saints in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:1) "The Church of the Holy and Faithful Brothers in Christ" (Col. 1:2) "The Church In God Our Father and the Lord Jesus" (II Thess 1:1) "The Church of God's Elect" (I Peter 1:1) "The Children of God" (I John 3:1) Etc...Etc...Etc...if they accept being called a denomination, then that would relegate them to a position within the Body of Christ. But their claim is that they are not just a part of the Body of Christ, but that they are THE BODY OF CHRIST. This also allows them to claim that you are not a true Christian and you are not going to heaven, because you don't belong to the one and only, true Body of Christ."
Some of the doctrines you hold believe that baptism is essential to salvation; no music instruments in worship; and deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in present day.
So in this regard, I am speaking about the church of Christ.
Florida, you have reread and reread the verse in Ephesians:
"For it is by grace are you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The act of baptism is a work or ritual. Paul makes clear the point works do not (and can not) save us. Even the faith we have is a gift of God. Since works cannot save us, baptism plays no part in the salvation of the believer.
These are a few of the verses that I believe support baptism as not essential to salvation. We are justified by faith alone.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
I believe that the entirety of Scripture clearly shows that salvation is by faith. Baptism is important that is outwardly indicates the initiation into the body of believers--a sign of an inner conversion.
You claim that since it is not spelled directly out, "you do not need baptism to be saved" in Scripture that it cant be, however, the Trinity is never spelled out in Scripture, yet it clearly reveals the triune Godhead.
You certainly have a way with words aggie.
This is a quote from a Christian apologetics site.
"The Church of Christ denomination (CHOCD) claims that they can trace their roots back to the original New Testament church, in the same way that the Catholic Church claims that they can trace the papacy back to the Apostle Peter. Both claims are equally spurious. The reality of their origins is that the CHOCD was nowhere to be found before 1906. They broke away from the denomination known as the Christian Church. But right off the bat, this is where we get into one of their greatest controversies. They claim that they are not a denomination, but rather they are the TRUE Body of Christ! To justify this outlandish claim, they rest very heavily on the notion that they have the only biblically correct name of any church
or forms of church government (Presbyterian) and claim that the only scriptural name given to the church is the name that they bear. Since the word Christ simply means "messiah", that translates into The Church of the Messiah. But which Messiah? A better name would be The Church of Jesus Christ, which would also be a scriptural name.
As would: "The Church of God" (I Cor. 1:2) "The Church of the Faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1) "The Church of the Saints in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:1) "The Church of the Holy and Faithful Brothers in Christ" (Col. 1:2) "The Church In God Our Father and the Lord Jesus" (II Thess 1:1) "The Church of God's Elect" (I Peter 1:1) "The Children of God" (I John 3:1) Etc...Etc...Etc...if they accept being called a denomination, then that would relegate them to a position within the Body of Christ. But their claim is that they are not just a part of the Body of Christ, but that they are THE BODY OF CHRIST. This also allows them to claim that you are not a true Christian and you are not going to heaven, because you don't belong to the one and only, true Body of Christ."
Some of the doctrines you hold believe that baptism is essential to salvation; no music instruments in worship; and deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in present day.
So in this regard, I am speaking about the church of Christ.
Florida, you have reread and reread the verse in Ephesians:
"For it is by grace are you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The act of baptism is a work or ritual. Paul makes clear the point works do not (and can not) save us. Even the faith we have is a gift of God. Since works cannot save us, baptism plays no part in the salvation of the believer.
These are a few of the verses that I believe support baptism as not essential to salvation. We are justified by faith alone.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
I believe that the entirety of Scripture clearly shows that salvation is by faith. Baptism is important that is outwardly indicates the initiation into the body of believers--a sign of an inner conversion.
You claim that since it is not spelled directly out, "you do not need baptism to be saved" in Scripture that it cant be, however, the Trinity is never spelled out in Scripture, yet it clearly reveals the triune Godhead.
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F
Florida College
Guest
suzie,
Thanks for the history lesson about the church of
Christ. I am assuming that you offer the quote from the Christian apologetics site because you agree with it. So then, I am also to assume that you have all the facts. Correct?
Let's consider a few facts that you may have overlooked:
* I don't read of the Church of Christ denomination (COCD) in the bible. I believe the correct terminology is the "churches of Christ" referring to several churches, which would be "church of Christ" in the singular use. Is this the only scriptural name for the church. No? There are other scriptural names the church could use. Your quote points that out, and that is true.
* The origin of the church of Christ obviously predates 1906. Romans 16:16 should resolve that issue. If Paul wrote of it in the first century in the present tense, then it was already established in 1906. Correct?
* How was the church of Christ established? Good question. Jesus promised to build only one church - Matt. 16:18. It was established in Acts 2. What does it take to establish that church today? All it takes is teaching the gospel of Christ; as people obey the gospel they are added to the Lord's church - Acts 2:47. These followers of Christ are careful to use scriptural authority for all that they do - Col. 3:17, Matt. 21:23-27. They use scriptural authority for the names that they wear (i.e. Christian, disciple, saint, etc.), the name the church is identified by (i.e. church of God, body of Christ, the church, church of Christ), and the worship the church engages in (i.e. teaching, praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lord's supper).
* Did the church of Christ come from the Christian Church? No. Romans 16:16 settles that. Briefly explained, the history of the church is as follows:
- it was established in the first century (Acts 2)
- there was an apostacy in the church (Catholicism was formed)
- the Protestant (Reformation) movement came about to protest Catholicism (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian churches, etc. were formed)
- some involved in protestant religions realized that their beliefs and practices were not in harmony with the bible. Their plea was to return to bible teaching (after all, how else can we please our God?); this period is referred to as the Restoration period. It was during this time that a division occurred between brethren over scriptural issues (i.e. use of the instrument of music in worship) and the Christian Church came about. Churches today are established as Christians unite their efforts in a community to follow Christ by having bible authority for all their efforts.
Is the church of Jesus Christ a better name than church of Christ? Romans 16:16 certainly gives the impression that the church of Christ is an acceptable name. Consequently, the matter of which is a better name is not a scriptural concern.
It is not necessary to discuss the doctrines of the church of Christ. What is necessary is to discuss the scriptures. Is baptism necessary for salvation?
Yes - Acts 2:38 & Mark 16:16. Are musical instruments acceptable in worship? No - Eph. 5:19 & Col. 3:16. Are miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit performed today? No - I Cor. 13:8-11 & common sense - - I realize that this may come across the wrong way, but it needs to be said. I firmly believe that the reason people spend so much time talking about spiritual gifts is that they can't actually do them; therefore, their time is spent just talking about them.
Now, let's discuss faith?
Your extensive list of the scriptures that discuss faith - - starting with Jn. 3:16 and ending with 1 Tim. 1:16 - - is quite impressive. Faith is so important! You have obviously spent some time assembling those passages. Time spent in bible study is good. Perhaps, a little more time spent studying would be beneficial. Let me show you what I mean. Before you listed the scriptures that emphasized the importance of faith, you made this statement, "We are justified by faith alone." Yet, no where in this list of scriptures can I find a verse that says FAITH ALONE JUSTIFIES OR SAVES. Did I miss it? What I do find is a scripture that plainly says that we are not justified by faith alone - James 2:24. In the context of James 2:14-17, how would you recommend responding to the destitute brother or sister?
Consider Matthew 2; Jesus was born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, and also called a Nazarene. Which aspect is true? Obviously, they all three are.
We determine that by harmonizing the scriptures and not making a conclusion before all the scriptures are examined. Is faith alone really all that is necessary for salvation? If so, what about passages that command repentance - Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30, confessing Christ - Matt. 10:32-33, and baptism - Acts 2:38 ;
Acts 10:48 ; & Acts 22:16. To help you think about these verses, ask yourself this question again,
"Was Jesus born in Bethlehem, call out of Egypt, or called a Nazarene?" Learning how to harmonize scripture will also help you see through your perceived dilemma between faith and works.
Concerning baptism: read Romans 6:3-11. Allow your faith to help you understand all that is involved in baptism. Remember the words of Jesus, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mk. 16:16. Now, recall Ananias' words to Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" - Acts 22:16.
Suzie, why not let your faith lead you to obey God in all that he commands?
FC
Thanks for the history lesson about the church of
Christ. I am assuming that you offer the quote from the Christian apologetics site because you agree with it. So then, I am also to assume that you have all the facts. Correct?
Let's consider a few facts that you may have overlooked:
* I don't read of the Church of Christ denomination (COCD) in the bible. I believe the correct terminology is the "churches of Christ" referring to several churches, which would be "church of Christ" in the singular use. Is this the only scriptural name for the church. No? There are other scriptural names the church could use. Your quote points that out, and that is true.
* The origin of the church of Christ obviously predates 1906. Romans 16:16 should resolve that issue. If Paul wrote of it in the first century in the present tense, then it was already established in 1906. Correct?
* How was the church of Christ established? Good question. Jesus promised to build only one church - Matt. 16:18. It was established in Acts 2. What does it take to establish that church today? All it takes is teaching the gospel of Christ; as people obey the gospel they are added to the Lord's church - Acts 2:47. These followers of Christ are careful to use scriptural authority for all that they do - Col. 3:17, Matt. 21:23-27. They use scriptural authority for the names that they wear (i.e. Christian, disciple, saint, etc.), the name the church is identified by (i.e. church of God, body of Christ, the church, church of Christ), and the worship the church engages in (i.e. teaching, praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lord's supper).
* Did the church of Christ come from the Christian Church? No. Romans 16:16 settles that. Briefly explained, the history of the church is as follows:
- it was established in the first century (Acts 2)
- there was an apostacy in the church (Catholicism was formed)
- the Protestant (Reformation) movement came about to protest Catholicism (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian churches, etc. were formed)
- some involved in protestant religions realized that their beliefs and practices were not in harmony with the bible. Their plea was to return to bible teaching (after all, how else can we please our God?); this period is referred to as the Restoration period. It was during this time that a division occurred between brethren over scriptural issues (i.e. use of the instrument of music in worship) and the Christian Church came about. Churches today are established as Christians unite their efforts in a community to follow Christ by having bible authority for all their efforts.
Is the church of Jesus Christ a better name than church of Christ? Romans 16:16 certainly gives the impression that the church of Christ is an acceptable name. Consequently, the matter of which is a better name is not a scriptural concern.
It is not necessary to discuss the doctrines of the church of Christ. What is necessary is to discuss the scriptures. Is baptism necessary for salvation?
Yes - Acts 2:38 & Mark 16:16. Are musical instruments acceptable in worship? No - Eph. 5:19 & Col. 3:16. Are miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit performed today? No - I Cor. 13:8-11 & common sense - - I realize that this may come across the wrong way, but it needs to be said. I firmly believe that the reason people spend so much time talking about spiritual gifts is that they can't actually do them; therefore, their time is spent just talking about them.
Now, let's discuss faith?
Your extensive list of the scriptures that discuss faith - - starting with Jn. 3:16 and ending with 1 Tim. 1:16 - - is quite impressive. Faith is so important! You have obviously spent some time assembling those passages. Time spent in bible study is good. Perhaps, a little more time spent studying would be beneficial. Let me show you what I mean. Before you listed the scriptures that emphasized the importance of faith, you made this statement, "We are justified by faith alone." Yet, no where in this list of scriptures can I find a verse that says FAITH ALONE JUSTIFIES OR SAVES. Did I miss it? What I do find is a scripture that plainly says that we are not justified by faith alone - James 2:24. In the context of James 2:14-17, how would you recommend responding to the destitute brother or sister?
Consider Matthew 2; Jesus was born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, and also called a Nazarene. Which aspect is true? Obviously, they all three are.
We determine that by harmonizing the scriptures and not making a conclusion before all the scriptures are examined. Is faith alone really all that is necessary for salvation? If so, what about passages that command repentance - Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30, confessing Christ - Matt. 10:32-33, and baptism - Acts 2:38 ;
Acts 10:48 ; & Acts 22:16. To help you think about these verses, ask yourself this question again,
"Was Jesus born in Bethlehem, call out of Egypt, or called a Nazarene?" Learning how to harmonize scripture will also help you see through your perceived dilemma between faith and works.
Concerning baptism: read Romans 6:3-11. Allow your faith to help you understand all that is involved in baptism. Remember the words of Jesus, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mk. 16:16. Now, recall Ananias' words to Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" - Acts 22:16.
Suzie, why not let your faith lead you to obey God in all that he commands?
FC
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A Brethren IN CHRIST
Well-Known Member
Luke 23:39-43 the theif gets to go to paradise
That was according to 1cor 12:13 he was baptised but no one saw it
By the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5
beautiful
just like the rest of us
That was according to 1cor 12:13 he was baptised but no one saw it
By the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5
beautiful
just like the rest of us
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
I have no idea where you are getting that idea. The only point offered forward by gqaggie04's post is that the theif on the cross example in the context you are providing is not correct. I don't remember reading anywhere when gqaggie04 claimed that Christ was not God.
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F
Florida College
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A Brethren IN CHRIST,
I noticed that you did not comment on the section about harmonizing scripture? Did you miss that part? . . . or just still don't understand it?
Does the example of the thief on the cross negate the teachings on the necessity of baptism? You obviously think so. I don't. Consider how harmonizing the scriptures works in this case.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Jesus taught that baptism was necessary for salvation - Mk. 16:16.
When did Jesus' law go into effect? If you don't know the answer, read Hebrews 9: 15-17. According to this passage, Jesus' law (testament, or will) could not go into effect until after he died. Was Jesus dead at the time he granted parton to the thief on the cross? It doesn't appear that he was in Lk. 23:39-43. So the real questions are . . . what law was in effect when the thief was on the cross? . . . and was baptism into Christ required under that law in order to be saved? The only written law in effect at that time was the Law of Moses - - given exclusively to the Jews. Baptism into Christ was not required under the Old Testament. But what about after Jesus' death? What law went into effect then? According to the passage in Hebrews 9: 15-17, then Jesus' law could go into effect. In fact, if you consider that Jesus' testament or law is the same as a will that goes into effect when the one that made it dies, then you could think of Acts 2 as reading the will and stating the terms of the will. What did Peter tell those Jews that believed the sermon in Acts 2 and asked what they should do since they were guilty of putting to death the Christ? Did he tell them that as long as they had faith they would be saved from their sins? No, he told them to "repent and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins." In Acts 2 the message of salvation had been proclaimed, and the terms to the will stated. Now, can you find any examples of salvation without baptism after Jesus' testament went into effect?
You have done a terrible injustice to 1 Cor. 12:13 & Titus 3:5 by implying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is involved in salvation. Perhaps, Acts 8:35-36 will help sort things out for you. Consider the basic facts of this passage:
* Philip preached "Jesus" to the Ethiopian eunuch
* Preaching "Jesus" includes preaching baptism - - note the eunuch's response "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized."
*Now, how was the eunuch baptized? . . . in the Holy Spirit? . . . or in water? I am compelled to say that he was baptized in water - vs. 38-39. What would your answer be?
While the thief on the cross brings you confidence in salvation by faith only, I don't belief you've yet to respond to Jn. 12: 42-43. These scriptures plainly say that the rulers "believed." I am concluding that you are also following their example. Am I mistaken? I am also concluding that you are headed for the same place that they were.
Am I mistaken in this?
You obviously have a zeal to serve God. Why not couple that zeal with knowledge - Rom.10: 1-2?
"It is hard for you to kick against the goads" - Acts 9:5?
FC
I noticed that you did not comment on the section about harmonizing scripture? Did you miss that part? . . . or just still don't understand it?
Does the example of the thief on the cross negate the teachings on the necessity of baptism? You obviously think so. I don't. Consider how harmonizing the scriptures works in this case.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Jesus taught that baptism was necessary for salvation - Mk. 16:16.
When did Jesus' law go into effect? If you don't know the answer, read Hebrews 9: 15-17. According to this passage, Jesus' law (testament, or will) could not go into effect until after he died. Was Jesus dead at the time he granted parton to the thief on the cross? It doesn't appear that he was in Lk. 23:39-43. So the real questions are . . . what law was in effect when the thief was on the cross? . . . and was baptism into Christ required under that law in order to be saved? The only written law in effect at that time was the Law of Moses - - given exclusively to the Jews. Baptism into Christ was not required under the Old Testament. But what about after Jesus' death? What law went into effect then? According to the passage in Hebrews 9: 15-17, then Jesus' law could go into effect. In fact, if you consider that Jesus' testament or law is the same as a will that goes into effect when the one that made it dies, then you could think of Acts 2 as reading the will and stating the terms of the will. What did Peter tell those Jews that believed the sermon in Acts 2 and asked what they should do since they were guilty of putting to death the Christ? Did he tell them that as long as they had faith they would be saved from their sins? No, he told them to "repent and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins." In Acts 2 the message of salvation had been proclaimed, and the terms to the will stated. Now, can you find any examples of salvation without baptism after Jesus' testament went into effect?
You have done a terrible injustice to 1 Cor. 12:13 & Titus 3:5 by implying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is involved in salvation. Perhaps, Acts 8:35-36 will help sort things out for you. Consider the basic facts of this passage:
* Philip preached "Jesus" to the Ethiopian eunuch
* Preaching "Jesus" includes preaching baptism - - note the eunuch's response "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized."
*Now, how was the eunuch baptized? . . . in the Holy Spirit? . . . or in water? I am compelled to say that he was baptized in water - vs. 38-39. What would your answer be?
While the thief on the cross brings you confidence in salvation by faith only, I don't belief you've yet to respond to Jn. 12: 42-43. These scriptures plainly say that the rulers "believed." I am concluding that you are also following their example. Am I mistaken? I am also concluding that you are headed for the same place that they were.
Am I mistaken in this?
You obviously have a zeal to serve God. Why not couple that zeal with knowledge - Rom.10: 1-2?
"It is hard for you to kick against the goads" - Acts 9:5?
FC
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A Brethren IN CHRIST
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aggie03 said:
jOHN 6:29 .......This is the work of God that ye believe on Him who He hath sent.
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A Brethren IN CHRIST
Well-Known Member
Florida College said:
1peter 1:17-22 nothing but precious blood that washes us
you are immpossible
I took the thief out of context in my zealousness
However if I am so are you mark 16:16 before or after death?
Father picks us before the world
Jesus blood covers are sins
Holy Spirit Restrains satan 2thes 2:1-12
reprovesJohn 16:7-11
Baptizing acts 11:15-18
Regeneration 1 cor 12:12-13
Indwelling Gal 3:2-5 ,1 cor 12:13
sealing Eph 1:13
Filling Eph 5:18
God does all the work John 6:29
everything else is work Eph 2:8-9 , Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5...ect
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You are welcome for the history lesson. I thought it important to recognize that you were not just from a general independant believer who does not recognize denominations, but that we are all Christians, but instead from an organized denomination that holds a certain set of doctrines and separate themselves from Christians by those believing yourselves to be the "one true church". I know the arguments that prevail about baptism in accordance to your church. I dont agree with them.
I did not want to enter into debate. I gave why I believed what I did and you dismiss our view. I am not trying to talk you into believing baptism isnt necessary for salvation. However, you seem to be thinking you can somehow persuade me. It wont. I have studied this and I believe Scripture gives clear indication that it is by faith alone. Just as I believe that God is a Trinity and the Scriptures clearly portray this. You asked for Scriptural references and I gave them to you. I have more however, I know already that you are prepared or taught to defend your stand. So, if you wish to believe this, then you can. If you are unsure or if you think that you might not understand the other view, I would be glad to discuss this with you. However, this is not about discussion....
I did not want to enter into debate. I gave why I believed what I did and you dismiss our view. I am not trying to talk you into believing baptism isnt necessary for salvation. However, you seem to be thinking you can somehow persuade me. It wont. I have studied this and I believe Scripture gives clear indication that it is by faith alone. Just as I believe that God is a Trinity and the Scriptures clearly portray this. You asked for Scriptural references and I gave them to you. I have more however, I know already that you are prepared or taught to defend your stand. So, if you wish to believe this, then you can. If you are unsure or if you think that you might not understand the other view, I would be glad to discuss this with you. However, this is not about discussion....
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