baptism necessary to be saved???

Florida College said:

A brethren in Christ,

I ask you to please explain yourself better. The last post you directed to me seemed like a jumbled mess..

I want to reiterate a point....

You believe that faith alone saves

John 12:24-43 - Nevertheless many even of the rulers BELIEVED in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

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Just because they confess not does not mean they will get to go to Hell

loveing the world ..........believers do that know in 1John 2:12-17

look at peter denieing Jesus three times...he knew he would be tempted and he would fail.....still the Lord had him as an aspostel



God is faithful eventhough we are not

James 2:19 - You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

So I have a question for you. How can you possibly harmonize your beliefs with these scriptures? John 12:42 says "For Many of the Rulers BELIEVED in him." How can you get around it? The rulers believed! They had Faith! BUT THEY WERE NOT SAVED!!!!!!!!!! James 2:19 tells us that "the demons also believe, and shudder." The demons believe; However, they are not saved!

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Job 38:7 The son of God got to see visally the making of the universe but that was not enough for them to believe that he was all powerful since they were powerful also...one third of the angels followed Satan in Isaiah 14:12-17 in trying to ascended above God......but stopped in there tracks

Suzie,

If faith alone saves? What about the rulers in John 12:42-43 that "believed." What about the demons in James 2:19 that "believed." Why weren't they saved. It plainly says that "they believed." That is without a doubt. So why weren't they saved?

In romans 3:10-11 As it is written there is none righteous, no , not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So how do we believe with out Faith which is from H.S. from Gal 5:22-23

can't and if we have no Faith how can we do the good works of God according to eph 2:10

can't why

Gal 5:19-21 works of the flesh

Ps 53:The fool said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable inquity: there is none that doeth good 2 God looked down from heaven upon the the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have the workers of inquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

Matt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me lord lordshall I enter into heaven .22 works that they have done.......-23 I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Do you see


At the bema seat he reward us with crown for are good works but everyone of th christians throw the crowns back saying we are not worthy because they realized that God impowered them to do those works NOT themselves since they have flesh which is not saved till the Rapture

suzie said:

So to put baptism in perspective you must harmonize the ideas of grace with the mandate of baptism. What's left is the idea that baptism is necessary for one already converted to exercise obedience to Christ, much in the same way that circumcision was exercised in Old Testament times as a symbol of that covenant relationship between God and His people.

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The problem that I have with this comparison you've provided is that you're assuming that someone is already in a right relationship with God before they are baptized. This simply cannot be true because we don't even have remission of sins until we are baptized:

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 cor 9:22 .............I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some determitive will

2 peter 3:9 ...........not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance desireous will

1 tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.........desireous will


romans 8:28 As we know that all things work together for good to them that agape love GOD, to them who are the called according to His purpose 29 For whom he did foreknow, he aslo did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, ...............

this will open up many question ......

God gave every man an Opportunity to believe however with out the Holy spirit NO MAN CAN BELIEVE why romans 3:10-11

Romans 9:11
Col 1:15
1cor 1:26-31 chose the mainly weak, foolish, of this world
Gal 1:6,15
eph 1:4
1peter 2:4,9
Matt 20:16 many called few chosen
matt 22:14 many called few chosen

aggie03 said:

The problem that I have with this comparison you've provided is that you're assuming that someone is already in a right relationship with God before they are baptized. This simply cannot be true because we don't even have remission of sins until we are baptized:

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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Romans 4:5 Belief justifeth the ungodly

explain you keep side steping this verse

Florida College said:

Suzie,

If faith alone saves? What about the rulers in John 12:42-43 that "believed." What about the demons in James 2:19 that "believed." Why weren't they saved. It plainly says that "they believed." That is without a doubt. So why weren't they saved?

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ruler believed but did not show it but still righteous

demons were not offered salvation

A brethren in Christ,

I have to make this short b/c I have to leave. I will respond in more length when I get back later this evening.

John 12:24-43 - Nevertheless many even of the rulers BELIEVED in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

You said "Just because they confess not does not mean they will get to go to Hell."

How more clear could verse 43 be......

"for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God."

From this verse, it is safe to say that everything was not hunky-dory. "for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God" (verse 43).

If their "faith alone" saved them, then why does Matthew throw in verse 43. How more clear could it get?

James 2:19 - You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

If faith is all that is required of us, then what about the demons? They had faith.... What about the rulers? They believed - but verse 43 says that they loved the approval of men more than God. Why is this? They had faith?

A brethren in Christ,

You said "ruler believed but did not show it but still righteous"

Where does it say they are still righteous? I'm looking, but I just never found that verse. The verse I found, verse 43, says "For they loved the approval of men more than the approval of God."

Florida College said:

A brethren in Christ,

You said "ruler believed but did not show it but still righteous"

Where does it say they are still righteous? I'm looking, but I just never found that verse. The verse I found, verse 43, says "For they loved the approval of men more than the approval of God."

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HOw many times do I have to put up this verse only God knows

ROMANS 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


forbear ben forbear

sorry note to self

suzie said:

Maybe you should take it to prayer florida.

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Excellent idea! I think that this is something that everyone should do. We have to realize that we are not debating about doctrine or dogma, but we are discussing the things that a real, living God (who loves us so much that He came to earth, suffered and died for us) wants us to do.

aggie, the church of Christ is a sect in itself

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I just want you to be aware of the gravity of the statement you just made. The church of Christ - let's diagram what that means.

Church - the called out, the saints, the elect
Of - used as a function word to indicate origin or derivation

The church of Christ is a God given name for God's people. It is a descriptuve name for Christians. Christians are the called out, the saints, the elect who find their origin in Christ, the head of the Church. The church of Christ is Chirst's church, just like my hat could be called the hat of aggie03. So, in effect, you have just labeled Christianity as a sect. I am going to have to disagree with that.

Brethren, you need to realize the reason why that verse was written to the Christians who lived in Rome - not because there was nothing that they had to do, but because there was no work that could EARN their salvation. If there was nothing that we had to do then Jesus would have been speaking for naught when He said the following:

Luke 17:7-10 NASB

7 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

We are to do the things that God has told us are necessary - but these to do not earn our salvation. When we obey God and do as He says, we are still unworthy servants. That is why we need His grace to save us, which we receive only after we have done all that He says is necessary to receive it.

A brethren in Christ,

Before reading Romans 4:5, examine the context. Verse 2 and 4 point out that it is impossible for a man to be JUSTIFIED before God through his works. Does this mean that one must be justified by works to be saved? No. Our salvation is an unearned gift given to us on the condition of our compliance to God's law.

Back to John 12:42-43 - Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; FOR THEY LOVED THE APPROVAL OF MEN RATHER THAN THE APPROVAL OF GOD.

How can you say that the rulers were righteous after verse 43. (FOR THEY LOVED THE APPROVAL OF MEN MORE THAN THE APPROVAL OF GOD). That is the opposite of righteous. How can you throw in Rom 4:5, and say that the men were still righteous after vs 43....

they believed in God ....don't let it be your stumbling stone


remember no works required

aggie03 said:

Brethren, you need to realize the reason why that verse was written to the Christians who lived in Rome - not because there was nothing that they had to do, but because there was no work that could EARN their salvation. If there was nothing that we had to do then Jesus would have been speaking for naught when He said the following:

Luke 17:7-10 NASB

7 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

We are to do the things that God has told us are necessary - but these to do not earn our salvation. When we obey God and do as He says, we are still unworthy servants. That is why we need His grace to save us, which we receive only after we have done all that He says is necessary to receive it.

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1 cor 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called [saved] 21 Art thou called being a slave? care not for it: but if thou mayest be free, use it rather. 22 For he that is called[saved]in the Lord, being a slave, is the Lord's freeman:likewisealso he that is called, being free is Christ slave. 23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let every man wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Nothing to do with salvation Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

1 cor 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called [saved] 21 Art thou called being a slave? care not for it: but if thou mayest be free, use it rather. 22 For he that is called[saved]in the Lord, being a slave, is the Lord's freeman:likewisealso he that is called, being free is Christ slave. 23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let every man wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Nothing to do with salvation Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5

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The verse that you quoted is talking about being a physical slave. An earthly slave with an earthly master. We are to be slaves to righteousness:

Romans 6:17-18 ASV

But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; (18) and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

We are also called to be servants of Christ Jesus:

Romans 1:1 ASV

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Luke 17 still applies. We have to do the things that God tells us, and this earns us nothing. Rather we are unworthy servants who depend solely on His grace which He gives freely if we do what He says.

aggie03 said:

The verse that you quoted is talking about being a physical slave. An earthly slave with an earthly master. We are to be slaves to righteousness:

Romans 6:17-18 ASV

But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; (18) and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

We are also called to be servants of Christ Jesus:

Romans 1:1 ASV

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Luke 17 still applies. We have to do the things that God tells us, and this earns us nothing. Rather we are unworthy servants who depend solely on His grace which He gives freely if we do what He says.

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Job 15:15 Hehold, He putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight


maybe that why he does all the work

A brethren in Christ,

you said "they believed in God ....don't let it be your stumbling stone; remember no works required"

John 12:42-43 - Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; FOR THEY LOVED THE APPROVAL OF MEN RATHER THAN THE APPROVAL OF GOD.

They believed in God....... yes... but lets look at verse 43..... For they loved the approval of man more than the approval of God. You cannot say that this verse implies that they were still righteous... it implies the opposite "for they loved the approval of man more than the approval of God."

The rulers had faith.... but did their faith alone save them?? You simply cannot quote Rom. 4:5 out of context and say that these rulers who had faith were righteous.... Lets read verse 43 again

FOR THEY LOVED THE APPROVAL OF MEN RATHER THAN THE APPROVAL OF GOD.

Heres a perfect example....

Does faith alone save???? No

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

Job 15:15 Hehold, He putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight


maybe that why he does all the work

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Do you know who you're actually quoting here? You're quoting from a speech made by Eliphaz the Temanite.

Job 15:1 ASV

Then answered Eliphaz the Temanite, and said,

Just because someone in Scriptures says something, doesn't mean that they were correct. Saul said that he utterly destroyed the Amalekites while he left their king alive and all the choice animals. Saul was wrong (1 Samuel 15). So let's see what God has to say about Eliphaz the Temanite:

Job 42:7 ASV

And it was so, that, after Jehovah had spoken these words unto Job, Jehovah said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Eliphaz the Temanite did not speak what is RIGHT concerning God. Maybe you should reconsider your sources