Is baptism necessary to be saved?

fragmentsofdreams said:

John 19:32 states that the two criminals were still alive when the soldiers came to break their legs while Jesus had already died.

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Thank you fragments... I didn't know that but now I do I have a lot of learnin to do lol

But then it also goes to show this... the criminal to join Jesus in paradise died under the New Covenant... for he died after Christ declared "it is finished." And this criminal was never baptised... yet we know he is in heaven with Christ. Why was he able to get by without it? Shouldn't it then not be required of us all if not for him? Remember God is no respector of persons...

dldjr86 said:

I don't want to sound mean, but those who do not obey the will of God will face punishment (Phillipians 2:12, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 1:30, 2 Corinthians 10:6). Besides, we can't judge how God can handle things like that. We can just go by what we are told.

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Good for you... you know that to be true. But what does God actually require of us? Why not ask Jesus Himself? We see that people did this in John chapter 6:

John*6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John*6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now if you notice... Jesus doesn't give a long list of do's and don'ts... just very simple. "Believe in Him whom He has sent."

What does Jesus not say: "Believe and be baptised", "believe and sell all you have and give the money to the poor", "believe and anything"........ Jesus doesn't add an "and" onto that so why should we? Why don't we just take what Jesus said as truth for once and realize that God doesn't want all the religious stuff... He just wants us to believe!

(By the way I have been baptized... I don't write this to defend my actions of not goin and doin it... I write this because I know that baptism in water is not required of you to be saved)

And also... you should do some reading into what the 1st century Jews considered about baptism. In what I read on the subject... baptism was only an outward showing of an inward condition... If you think it to be more than that... what kind of water do you know of that will wash away sin from your soul? I don't know any. How is going under water an acceptable manner of payment for sins in the sight of God? (Hebrews 10:10)

LOVEequalsLXIX said:

btw, the thief on the cross was under the old dispensation, not the new dispensation.

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Actually, I wanted to sit this one out.

Buuuuttt, when I saw the mentioning of dispensationalism, I couldn't sit it out.

What difference does it make WHICH dispensation he was in? I find it odd that so many dispensationalists have a misunderstanding of our doctrine. We do NOT (NOT NOT NOT) teach that salvation was obtained by different modes in different dispensations. Salvation has ALWAYS been by elective grace, through faith in the Messiah to come, the 'Immanuel', or the Messiah who came. The dispensations themselves bear NO, I repeat NO soteriological changes or discrepancies.


Is baptism important?

Christ commanded it! How could anyone say such a thing that it isn't? But does it save? Knowing NT Christianity, it completely rams head-on into the brick wall of Scripture. We're saved by grace, grace, God's grace. Grace that can pardon and cleanse within, grace that is deeper than all our sins. Sorry a poetic mood of admiration just struck me so I quoted a hymn.


That's the one problem I have with classic dispensationalism. The soteriological confusion that results. Of course, the problem I have with covenant theology is the eschatological confusion that results. Postmillennialism is not practical or realistic, partial-preterist amillennialism requires partial hermeneutic systems. The problem with that then is that there is no absolute standard for interpretation if only some eschatological verses are spiritualized in order to fit the Bible with the system.

Here's the thing- primarily, dispensationalism is eschatological, and covenant theology is soteriological. Think about it. The emphases of each are DIFFERENT. Thus, it would be possible to harmonize both together. A way to combine the orthdox soteriology and weak eschatology of replacement theology, with the orthodox eschatology and weak soteriology of dispensationalism. Since the areas of focus are different, one relating to prophecy fulfillment and one relating to salvation, there is not inherent contradiction, and thus both could theoretically be combined. Pre-tribulation premillennialism, partial dispensationalism, 5 point Calvinism- a great system of theology. There has got to be some sort of way to reconcile the systems. Actually, on a private note, that's become my new goal. Finding a consistent way to harmonize the systems. It's uncanny how well they could fit together. The weaknesses and strengths of one system are exact strength and weaknesses of the other. If we could get the strong soteriology of covenant theology, and the strong eschatology of dispensationalism, and ACTUALLY find a way to harmonize them together, logically and hermeneutically, that would be just AWESOME.

That's my new goal. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Your name is "Love = 69". What is that supposed to mean?

Do you believe someone on their death bed can accept Christ?

Are baptismals so portable that they can be wheeled into the death chamber?

I think you are reading things that just are not there.

Maybe we should examine that verse and its text via Hebrew, Greek and the KJV. I think you are using NIV or the like.

Good point Rapture,
I have actually heard that many people on their death beds have asked the Lord for salvation.

Like the marriage analogy brought up earlier, you don't have to be baptised to receive salvation, the deal was already sealed when you believed. Much in the same way, a couple knows they love one another before they become married and hold a ceremony. It is an outward sign of an inner decision. You only need a marriage license to receive the tax breaks, not a license and a ceremony.

The marriage analogy that was given is not acurate. You are implying that the marriage takes place before the wedding. That's not true. Just because you love someone, that doesn't make you married. Even if two people make the decision to get married, they still are not married yet. If your logic is true, then two people who are engaged could have sex because they are already married? That's absurd.

Likewise, just because you believe in Jesus, that in and of itself doesn't make you a Christian. "The devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19).

A marriage license gives you the right to get married. But you are not married yet. Belief gives you the "power to become" a son of God. But you are not a son of God yet, if the only thing you've done is believe. James 2:24 says that we are not saved by "faith only".

I believe all the passages demanding faith. I also, believe all the passages demanding baptism. Why can't you believe both?

Thats interesting heb. Ill have to look up just what Jacob, David, Ruth, and all the other biblical folks did with their licenses....

dldjr86 said:

I don't want to sound mean, but those who do not obey the will of God will face punishment (Phillipians 2:12, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 1:30, 2 Corinthians 10:6). Besides, we can't judge how God can handle things like that. We can just go by what we are told.

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Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the flesh, but after the spirit.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

Faith heb 11:1
not by sight 2cor 5:7


where does one get faith Gal 5 :22-23
who help man to seek God 1 cor 2:10

Romans 3:10-11 no man seaketh God

dldjr86 said:

Thanks for the reply, fragments, you beat me too it.

There are many places in the New Testament where we see that baptism was used to be saved.

Acts 2:38 shows that the 3,000 present on the day of Pentecost first repent, then were baptized for the remission of there sins. It does not say that they repented and were saved, then baptized.

Everyone thinks that Paul was saved before he was baptized, just because he was called "brother". That "brother" most likely showed that Ananias and Paul were from the same place. As Paul is retelling the story of when he was saved, he shows that Ananias asked him, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). So, if baptism is not necessary, how are sins washed away? It definitely shows right here that it is necessary.

Now, the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch. The eunuch noticed the need and urgency of baptism. Phillip said that he needed to do something before he could be baptized. He had to make a confession that Jesus was the son of God. Nowhere does it say that the eunuch was saved before he was baptized. If it wasn't necessary, why did he have feel the urgency of baptism.

Mark 16:16 shows another step in salvation. Belief has to come before baptism. And, this verse shows that baptism is necessary for salvation.

So, we see all the steps to salvation:

-Of course, you must hear the word, just as you just have. (Romans 10:17)
-You must belief the word (Mark 16:16)
-You must repent of your sins (Acts 2:38)
-You must confess Jesus is the son of God (Acts 8:37)
-You must be baptized, as we have discussed.
-Then, you must remain faithful (Revelation 2:10)

Is there anyone that agrees with me?

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those are water but we see two different forms of baptism in Matt 3:11

1cor 12:13 by one spirit we are baptised in to Christ.....
Eph 4:4-6...... one baptism puts us into christ

but no water interesting

dldjr86 said:

I don't want to sound mean, but those who do not obey the will of God will face punishment (Phillipians 2:12, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 1:30, 2 Corinthians 10:6). Besides, we can't judge how God can handle things like that. We can just go by what we are told.

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his will of salvation belief .....

eph 2:8-9
Romans 4:5
Titus 3:5

Romans 9:11 ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election mightstand, not of works, but of him that calleth

amen

dldjr86 said:

I still don't see the "outward sign of an inward grace" quote from the Bible.

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I don't see "dispensation."

I think that it is necessary to be water baptized after you are saved... Once you go in, you come out a new person.