The Great Debate: God vs Science

Every scientist will admit that the advances we've made in every aspect of science has grown to a high degree. We have come along way in just the last 30 years or so in the area of cosmology. Since man has exsisted we have always thought that the universe and God were Eternal. The bible commonly refers to God as 'the eternal'. Yet the bible has always been steadfast of the fact that the universe had a definate beginning, thus the first 31 verses in the bible, the creation account in Genesis. I have studied Genesis for some time and very word should be taken into consideration.

The big bang theory hit the world into mass acceptance some 30 years ago. The theory states that space/time had a beginning; beginning with a huge expansion. During the big bang, space/time finally began, throwning the universe into the huge expanding universe we see today. Because of the big bang the universe has cooled down to -260 degrees and constantly expanding. Since this was the beginning, one can assume that there was a time where space/time didnt have a beginning. Like i mentioned earlier everyone up to about 30 years ago believed that the universe was eternal, this isnt the case, it had a beginning. Yet the bible has ALWAYS claimed that the universe had a beginning. Only til recently have we confirmed the bible to be accurate. In Genesis 1:1 it states, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." This is a pretty powerful statement because it confirms with science.

Also the big bang states that the universe is constantly expanding, thanks too redshift discoveries, radiation echo, ect. The fact that the universe is expanding is true, thanks to modern science. Yet, if we read in our bibles we will find some very interseting statements. In Isaiah 42:5 it says, "Thus saith God the Lord, He that created the heavens and 'stretched' them out." We see another verse written literally thousands of years later stating this in Jeremiah 10:12, "He hath 'stretched' out the heavens by His discretion." Please note that these books were written long long before the knowledge we have today in cosmogoly." These are some powerful statements just for the meaning and because its placed twice in the bible, impling this is something humans would like to know about the universe.

Know we know that our time isn't God's time. God doesn't sit on a big rock rotating around its axis every 24 hours. No, God's time is different than our time, thats obvious. We find again some famous verses. Let's take a look and see about this. In Psalm 90:4 it says, "For a thousand years in Your sight are but as yesterday when it is passed, or as a watch in the night." And again, in 2 Peter 3:8 it says this in a letter Peter was writting to the Church, "But, beloved, do not be ignorant of this one thing, that one day is worth the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." What i find some interseting about the 2 Peter verse, is that, before it states its claim it tells us not to be ignorant about this one fact. Peter didn't want humans to think that God and humans are on the same page as far as time is concerned. The bible says this again twice implying its importance to man that we know this simple fact about God.

You are probably wondering where I'm going with this, well, i'll tell ya. Like i said, i've studied the Genesis account with alot of hours, lol, and i take the bible as is, i dont put words in, or take words out. God decides that in His infinate wisdom that He is going to state how ALL the universe and earth was created in a mere 6 days. The creation account is only 31 verses long. Noticed the first words in the bible. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Now stop. God could have stopped right there and began His story of the first man (adam), but He didn't. God could have made that first verse and every believer in the bible would have stopped questioning about the origin of the universe and earth because He already said He created them in the beginning. Put God decides to go on, not only did He say He created the heavens and the earth, but He goes into a bit of detail about each event, why, maybe we wanted us to know something. I'll break this down for everyone.

Day One: The creation of the universe, light separates from dark (Genesis 1:1-5). What does science have to say after the big bang. Well, from 15 billion years to 7.7 billion years the big bang marks the creation of the universe, in turn, light literally breaks free as electron bonds to atomic nuclei, galaxies start to form. Wow, sounds like a biblical day one.

Day Two: The heavenly firmament forms (Genesis 1:6-8). What does science say from 7.7 billion years to 3.7 billion years. Well, disks of milky way forms, stars are forming. The universe has cooled down alot allowing seperation. Geez, sounds like day two.

Day Three: Oceans and dry land appear, and the first life appears, plants (Genesis 1:9-13). What does science say happened 3.7 billion years to 1.7 billion years, well, that the earth cooled down and liquid water appears 3.8 billion years ago followed almost immediately by the first forms of life: bacteria and photosynthesic algea. Well, the bible is right.

Day Four: Sun, moon, and stars are visable in the heavens (Genesis 1:14-19). What is science saying, well from 1.7 billion years to 7.5 million years earth's atmosphere becomes transparent, the atmosphere is filling with rich oxygen. Geez, from where, maybe the plants, the bible is right again.

Day Five: First animal life swarms abundantly in waters, followed by reptiles and winged animals (Genesis 1:20-23). Science says 7.5 million years to 2.5 million years that first multicellular animals appear in water. Wow.

Day Six: Land animals, mammals, and humans appear (Genesis 1:24-31). Sciecne says that 2.5 million to present that land animals, mammals, and humans appear. Thanks to Gerald L Schroeder for this insight, lol.

In show this for 2 reasons: First, because this was written before man had a good graps on science. All these steps have to take place in order, day 4 can't be in day 2 for example. How did the author know that plants follow photosynenthsis and an oxygen rich atmosphere would form, this being an example. Two, because science and the bible are perfectly matched together. Science is finding the bible to be true in Genesis. But hey you say, there was an evening and morning, and it says day one, day two, day three. Your right, but lets examine this.

In Genesis 1:2 it says "And the earth was unformed and void." Unformed in hebrew means 'tohu' which means uniformed and chaotic. Void's meaning in hebrew is 'bohu' which means filled with the building blocks of matter, this from Talamud and Nahmanids. The earth was uniformed but filled with the building blocks of matter, science confirms.

Also after each day the bible says that there was "evening and morning" implying a literal 24 hour creation. Lets future explore. The root word for "evening" in hebrew is 'erev' which means disorder, mixture, chaos. The hebrew word for "Morning" is 'boker' which means oderly, able to be discerned. After each day or period of time, God states that there was disorder that turned into oderly. After each day the products of creations where able to be dicerned as stated in 'boker.'

How about the word "day" used in Genesis. Now this one is hotly debated, but the word in hebrew is 'YOM' which means two things. One meaning a literal 24 hr day, or secondly, a time period, as in "back in the day i walked my dog" something like that. These meanings are important, why?

God obviously uses Nature in the bible, its no suprise, everything He does isn't considered a miracle as stated as something outside of nature. God works in nature. God does something VERY interseting to time in the bible. In the first 31 verses of the bible (the creation) God uses a generic time frame and speeds through everything that He did. But look (this is important). Once HUMANS are introduced into the bible the bible starts using earthly time. For example, God didnt state that on hour 3 He made the light seperate or the firmament seperate or that on hour 7 He created animals, no, he uses a wide time span. Once humans are introduced God uses earth time, ie, Adam lived so many years, the flood was 40 days long, ect ect. He narrows time down into earthly time when His greatest creation was made (man).

In Day 6 of creation Humans are placed in with land animals, humans are nothing too special in day 6, God said "Be fruitful and mutliply" to both HUMANS AND ANIMALS. Now God did say that He "breathed into man the breath of life (soul), but still nothing too special according to time. In Genesis 2:4 God backtracks and tells the story of Adam and Eve. Now, Adam lived a while without eve, we know this because God told him to name all the animals after their kind, and He did. Not until after this did God say that Man (Adam) need help, and caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep to form Eve. In day 6 God gives the order to "be fruitful and multipy" to humans knowing that Adam didnt have a female yet. This is a perfect example of God saying that yes, i created humans in day 6 but thats not it. Only until Genesis 2 does Eve come into play. This implies very clearly that God is using a generic time frame for creation UP UNTIL THE TIME HUMANS WERE CREATED. This is sooo important. God uses earthly time only AFTER humans are created, this is shown all throughout the bible. Is the bible wrong in God giving orders to multipy to Adam on day 6 without a women, no, He's showing a perfect example of saying, yes, Humans were apart of the day 6 time period but the story runs much deeper, as stated in Genesis 2. In day 6 adam and eve were both already formed, but after the creation account in genesis does God start using earthly time. I hope im getting my message across on this, i hope this is making sense, lol.

Other's have noticed the words of "create" and "made" used in the bible. God created the heavens and the earth. He created great sea creatures, He created male and female. Yet God makes the firmament, He made the two great lights, He made the beast of the earth after His kind. The word create says that we are creating something from nothing, implies a creator, but when you make something you already have the tools and ingredents needed. If I make a clay vase i already have the spinning wheel and the clay, all i need to do is form the clay into something like a vase, creating is something completely different, it takes alot more effort. Noticed God creates the heavens and the earth, but makes the firmament on day 2, well, thats correct because after day one God would have been provided with the ingredents needed to make firmament, and so on and so forth. But noticed Genesis 1:27, God says that He created male and female, 3 times in one little verse, read it, He tells us three times in a row, is He trying to tell us something, yea, that He created male and female. But like i mentioned earlier God uses Nature. Notice in Day 3, God said "Let the EARTH bring forth vegeation, seed bearing plants" Did you see that. God said i will let the earth produce something. This screams loud and clear that God allows nature to do something. God created the laws of nature, thats clear, but He works in his laws, allowing it to do certain things to fullfil his will or purpose.

E=mc2 is an awesome formula of matter and energy using a constant of the speed of light. Eistein was an awesome scientist. But He says that the greater Gravity or Velocity you have the more time is slowed. Ie, if i was traveling near the speed of light my time would be slower than your time here on earth. Let's say that i lived on a planet that is so massive that for every 5 minutes i live, someone on earth will live 5 years. Time is relative. Me on that massive planet will not know that time is slow in relation to earth, no, because it just feels like 5 mins. While an onlooker from earth see's me and says, "man, that dude is going really slow, lol." There are places in the universe that have such a gravitial pull, this is not impossible to find. Could the same be true with God. We've already stated that God is not on our time, but could have God created the world in a literal 6 days while here on earth 15 billion years would have passed, its possible. Just remember that God starts using earthly time at the introduction of humans, and a vege time in the creation story. God and Science are perfectly intuned. These are just a few examples of God and science being intuned, if you read His book, you'll discover lots of things, ie, God can work outside the realem of nature, but the bible also says He works within the laws of nature as well, under His complete control. Amen to that. The bible is 6000 years old because thats the time humans came into the picture, but the earth is far older, is it because of the word "YOM" or because God's place has much more gravity, you'll never know, but notice that God and science are perfect together, no matter how many years it takes to discover it.

Excuse me everyone for not stating when the other planets were formed, but they were all made at different times, but i didnt know i had to spell everyone out for you karl You've gotta look at it from a persective of universe time, not earthly time. And i dont even know what you were trying to get at with the day 1-3 thing. But heres a good site nevertheless.
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/genesis.htm

Siliconaut, one of the main points in my beginning thread was getting people to understand that God could have used that beginning sentence "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" and stopped. People that believed that the bible is the Word of God would have stopped questioning the origins of earth and man, but He went on. For the next 30 verses He describes what happened at each stage in His ultimate goal, which is creating humans.
Point one that karl made was that day four the sun and moon were made, but light being created on day 1. Science has never proven that the sun or moon were created at the beginning of the big bang. Our sun is fairly young, some say about 4.5-5.0 billion years, and the earth being 4.5 billion years. Remember God is referencing OUR sun and OUR moon, not other bodies in our universe. On day one light was created, remember what i said before, light literally broke free as electrons bonds to atomic nuclei. Our sun and moon didnt have to be made until much later, and science backs that up.
Other point that karl makes was about plants and grass on day 3. Remember God said, "Let the earth produce grass, seed-bearing plants of our their kind." God, as He's done in the past, has allowed nature to take over, He allowed the earth to produce plants. God created all the ingredents for a fruitful earth but He allows the laws of nature to work also. God had to create sea creatures to form a complex structure of life with DNA, amino acids, proteins, ect, but He made land animals, why, because He already had the ingredents to make them after His creation of sea creatures. Then the bible makes painfully clear that God 'created' humans, because He needed a soul (genesis 2:7) something animals don't have.
Karl also uses that on day 3 plants were formed and on day 6 land animals were made, thus eating the plants. I don't see where the problem lies here. Land animals eat plants, i dont understand the point.
He also makes the point that plants were introduced on day 3 but no other mentioned of other plants being made anywhere else in the creation account. Again, God works thur nature, He let the earth produce plants and from there take over. There's no need to mention plants again considering they were already made. If im missing something in these arguments, please say so. First there was light, then firmament, then earth (land) plus plants, then sun and moon (atmosphere being tranparent, thanks to plants and photosysnthesis), then sea creatures and fowls of the air, then land animals and humans, then He rested from creating. Thats the very simple version. And please remember that because there was evening and morning, dont imply this as a sun or earth already formed, look back for the Hebrew text meaning disorder to order.

Lucaspa, you write. 1. "God decides to go on". God didn't write Genesis. Jesus in Mark 10 is very specific that MOSES wrote the Pentateuch, not God. In fact, Genesis is a compilation of at least 3 other documents with separate authors. See, yes, man wrote the bible, yet God inspired. There's zero chance of half the things the bible says to be true if written by a mere man nowing nothing of science. Yea, a human man wrote Genesis, but with God's devine inspiration. Check out my earlier link of just the mere odds of God NOT being actively invovled in HIS book. The bible has always and will always be the number one best seller, why, because a couple guys wrote it, or because it someone fills our need of understand with God. We can disagree about this until the end of time, but the bible is so complex no man can fully comphend all of its meaning, this doesnt sound like a mere couple guys writting over a couple thousand year period.

You also say: "2. As a side note, the creation story in Genesis 1 goes to the beginning of Genesis 2:4, so it is 34 verses long." I say 31 because its 31 verses of creating. The other 3 verses in chapter 2 are no more than re-stating the fact AGAIN that GOd is the creator.

And again you say: "3. It is not literal history. The English translation hides the fact that Genesis 1 is a POEM or song. In fact, it is still sung in synagogue, as is the rest of the Torah. There are hints of this in the English text, however. The repeat of "morning and evening" is not there for literal days, but to keep the rhythm." To this i say WHO CARES, lets by chance say your right, theres a book called "song of songs." That book is no less important than any other book in the bible. That book is about love and marriage, its a very important book. People in ancient time used song, whats your point, the words are still as powerful, is of course is assuming that your right, considering the rest of genesis isnt song but stories. The whole 'morning and evening' thing really loses power if its a song when you know the hebrew words in relation to its context, creation.

You say, " 4. Creation in Genesis 1 is structured around numerology. In those days, the numbers 2, 3, and 7 had power. Each day has exactly 2 major creation events. Creation is grouped into 2 groups of 3 days each. And, of course, you have the 7th day of rest" I dont see your point here either. The number 3 is important for the trinity, th number 7 is used almost constantly for being a time of rest, read the laws of the Jews, God loves 7, and whats your point? 12 is also shown throughout the bible as having importance, certain numbers are in the bible, so what, please explain futher your point.