To all Christian Members: Have you studied the Koran and the teachings of Islam?

Im not stupid, i have read numerous articles, and sites and the quran itself.

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Nobody is saying you are stupid, even though I find your spelling and grammer atrocious. I'm sure you are a highly intelligent person who, unfortunately, thinks he has the key to world peace at age 23, who seems unwilling to deal with the facts and outtakes from the Koran which have already been posted here, and who prefers to make glittering generalizations instead. I understand. 23-year-olds have been trying to save the world by preaching "tolerance" for thousands of years. We know it doesn't work of course, because 100,000,000 people were either slaughtered or starved to death in the most recent century.

I know. You have the answer anyway. You have to believe it, because your whole word view and future plans depend on it. Personally I think a praying grandmother or a repentant sinner can do more real good than a thousand political scientists. I can't prove it of course. I just know that nothing changes until somebody repents.

I hate to burst your bubble, SF, but here's another fact. In the Christian school my daughter goes too, they are not taught to hate anyone. In fact, they are not even taught that Muslims are lost-
unlike the kids in even moderate Muslim schools all over the world.

Rad

Re lunachick

The thing is Hitler and Stalin were extremely intolerant people. That made them very dangerous. That made them part of the problems of the world, not part of the solutions

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True. I just think people have so many ideas of what it means to be "tolerant" that you almost can't discuss it. We need an objective standard to go by, and the power to enforce it, which I believe will only come with the return of Christ. The fact is, in this world, the only tolerance we get comes from the size of our military arsenal, I'm afraid.

I was mystified by your other question. It sounds as if you think we should be less tolerant of Israel than we are. Perhaps you could rephrase the question, and I will try to answer it.

We in the U.S seem pretty tolerant and supportive of all democratically run countries and their leaders. We have made special efforts to protect mosques in Iraq. I think Israel has a right to exist, and really has no other friends in the area. After WW II, the brits tried to keep the Jews out of their Holy land, but people felt they deserved one, especially after the holocaust.

Rad

radorth said:

Nobody is saying you are stupid, even though I find your spelling and grammer atrocious. I'm sure you are a highly intelligent person who, unfortunately, thinks he has the key to world peace at age 23, who seems unwilling to deal with the facts and outtakes from the Koran which have already been posted here, and who prefers to make glittering generalizations instead. I understand. 23-year-olds have been trying to save the world by preaching "tolerance" for thousands of years. We know it doesn't work of course, because 100,000,000 people were either slaughtered or starved to death in the most recent century.

I know. You have the answer anyway. You have to believe it, because your whole word view and future plans depend on it. Personally I think a praying grandmother or a repentant sinner can do more real good than a thousand political scientists. I can't prove it of course. I just know that nothing changes until somebody repents.

I hate to burst your bubble, SF, but here's another fact. In the Christian school my daughter goes too, they are not taught to hate anyone. In fact, they are not even taught that Muslims are lost-
unlike the kids in even moderate Muslim schools all over the world.

Rad

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First thing. People giving up because they "know it doesn't work" are one of the main reasons so many people die. But that is my opinion.

Second, the more politicians the worse things get. No offense but a praying person doesn't change much in my opinion. It brings them comfort but God, if he does exist, does as he wills. A boy scout helping said grandmother across the street does more good. Sorry that sounded harsh, I didn't mean faith was worthless I just think that people's physical actions have more effect than a person's thoughts.

Third, Moderate Muslim schools do not teach children that Christians are lost already. Fanatic schools maybe, but then again Christian fanatic schools do the same. (Read that first passage)

Well Revolitio, after what I've been called on various atheists sites, your posts sound complimentary. Don't need to worry about being "harsh." Speak your mind man!

No offense but a praying person doesn't change much in my opinion.

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History speaks otherwise. There is hard evidence two women praying in a little house on Bonnie Brae Street in Los Angeles (ca 1906) started a spiritual revival which reached 100 million people within 10 years. These things are very hard to document and prove of course, but there is an example. But if you find these women inheriting the earth, you'll know what happened I'm sure. Funny how everybody wants to move to the country with the most praying Christian grandmothers. Just coincidence, eh?

Charles Finney claimed the revivals he "lead" were really the result of his prayer team going ahead of him. Thus, people in factories would fall on their faces when he entered the door, having already been convicted of their sins.

I'm afraid the historical facts don't back up your personal opinions and guesses very well. But then you'd have to read as many Christian and NON Christian history books as I have to know that.

Rad

Sounds like someone did not get what they asked for during prayer way back when and like the kid in a candy store is now fussy that the chocolates were left behind.

Here's how I see Islam. They deny Jesus the Christ. Therefore God has not tolerance for the religion of Islam. Why should I accept that religion and their beliefs....to get along with people better? Na...I'd rather please God than man.

There will never be complete world peace where we all get along and believe the same thing. There might be world peace but it will be led by the Anti-Christ and won't last very long.

Btw...The Jews and the Muslims are still waiting for a Messiah...I wonder if they are the ones who will see the Anti-Christ as their savior?

tigersnare said:

Btw...The Jews and the Muslims are still waiting for a Messiah...I wonder if they are the ones who will see the Anti-Christ as their savior?

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IMO from what I've read so far (still reading..) I believe that of the Jews, a larger percentage will recognise Jesus as Messiah. When we consider what the Lord has said about the Jews - see Isaiah 59:20 & Rom 11:24 as well as others, we can be more certain that He will never forsake His children nor His promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And don't forget many Christians will be deceived by the Anti-christ too.

On the other hand, from what I've been reading so far, the Muslims will believe that our Messiah is the Anti-Christ leaving our Anti-Christ to be perceived by them as their Messiah which is quite disturbing. To paraphrase one of their Hadeeths - there is one bit where they speak of their Anti-Christ causing famine to those who do not worship him. Now in our case we have Zech 14:17 which when comparing the two is very thought provoking. Also Jesus speaks of the fact that when He returns it will be like 'lightning being visible from the east to west' (Matt 24:27). Yet for the Muslims they are warned against the Daijjal (their anti-Christ) being seen all over the world due to a day being extended or longer than other days (paraphrasing).

There are of course other Hadeeths supporting this and when cross-referenced with our Bible makes some pretty good reading...

God bless

radorth said:

Well Revolitio, after what I've been called on various atheists sites, your posts sound complimentary. Don't need to worry about being "harsh." Speak your mind man!



History speaks otherwise. There is hard evidence two women praying in a little house on Bonnie Brae Street in Los Angeles (ca 1906) started a spiritual revival which reached 100 million people within 10 years. These things are very hard to document and prove of course, but there is an example. But if you find these women inheriting the earth, you'll know what happened I'm sure. Funny how everybody wants to move to the country with the most praying Christian grandmothers. Just coincidence, eh?

Charles Finney claimed the revivals he "lead" were really the result of his prayer team going ahead of him. Thus, people in factories would fall on their faces when he entered the door, having already been convicted of their sins.

I'm afraid the historical facts don't back up your personal opinions and guesses very well. But then you'd have to read as many Christian and NON Christian history books as I have to know that.

Rad

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Namaste radorth,

thank you for the post.

your claims are just as 'unproven' as the one you are refuting, which you allude to in your post. which 100 million people were reached by which 2 women in LA?

though you, in fact, may be the most well read person on the board, or the planet for that matter, what you do not know is what the other poster has read or not read. it's quite possible that the other poster has read as much or even more than you have with regards to history of Christianity and otherwise. to simply discount the posting with a dismissive announcement of your superior intellectual capacity does not reflect well upon you.

this claim you make of everybody wanting to move to the country with a praying grandmother... i'm unclear on the reason for that statement. you are asserting that the only reason that people move to the country is to be near praying elderly people? ah... though having just re-read your post... perhaps you are saying that you find it odd that everyone wants to move to America, that has plenty of praying Christian grandmothers. if that's the case, do you think that it may have anything to do with our constitution or bill of rights?

though you, in fact, may be the most well read person on the board, or the planet for that matter, what you do not know is what the other poster has read or not read. it's quite possible that the other poster has read as much or even more than you have with regards to history of Christianity and otherwise.

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So?

I doubt it anyway, even in your "enlightened" in your case.

You failed to read my admission that I cannot prove these things as well, so I'm not sure what you are saying. You don't seem to understand what you do read.

Fact 1: There are now 200,000,000 charismatics in the world.

Fact 2: The first group of charismatics was hosted by a couple of praying grandmothers and a little old black lady was the first woman to speak in tongues. My post is not far fetched at all if you've read Frank Bartleman's detailed history of Asusa Street which you obviously haven't.

But let's see how widely read you are. Surely you know what college graduated the first black female before the civil war, and who its most famous president was. (Hint: big time "fundy" revivalist)

Rad

No, but former Muslim's Dr. Ergun and Emirl Caner were Sunni Muslims who came to America to evangelize Christian's and ended up becoming Christian's and having their lives totally transformed. Sorry. Couldn't help it. LOL

The Caner's say that Muslims live under the fear of the scales. It's a works based religion. They're hpoing that somehow their good deeds and thoughts will outweigh their bad deeds and thoughts. There is no guarantee of salvation, that is unless you kill "infidels" and die yourself at the same time. They say that there is no such thing as an intimate Muslim God. This is what blew them away about Christianity. That there could be a God who is intimately involved in every aspect of a person's being.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/islEamis.htm

radorth said:

So?

I doubt it anyway, even in your "enlightened" in your case.

You failed to read my admission that I cannot prove these things as well, so I'm not sure what you are saying. You don't seem to understand what you do read.

Fact 1: There are now 200,000,000 charismatics in the world.

Fact 2: The first group of charismatics was hosted by a couple of praying grandmothers and a little old black lady was the first woman to speak in tongues. My post is not far fetched at all if you've read Frank Bartleman's detailed history of Asusa Street which you obviously haven't.

But let's see how widely read you are. Surely you know what college graduated the first black female before the civil war, and who its most famous president was. (Hint: big time "fundy" revivalist)

Rad

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Namaste rad,

i am devoid of learning and destitue with words....

nevertheless... please provide sources for your figures or we shall have to accept that you are generalizing for the sake of discussion, which is fine.

is there some pleasure you derive from being condesending?

I have not studied it thoroughly, but i have briefly.
I have also read some disturbing things about Muhammad. After my studies, I still find that it is Through Christ that we need to live our lives

My personal opinion is that no one should pick a religion until they have examined every alternative in equal detail.

Like M. Scott Peck did?

Although 100 million people know who he is and why he became a Christian after studying all the other religions, you probably never even read one of his books.

I read him before he was a Christian, but then I do things you wouldn't have time for. You have to be actually searching for truth in order to find it.

And you can't be worried about what your friends think, which at your age may be impossible. I certainly cared too much back when, so I'm not judging you.

Rad

is there some pleasure you derive from being condesending?

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I'm only being truthful I'm afraid, with kids who don't even know how little they know about real life, and are too lazy to even read the Bible carefully before commenting on it. Call it whatever you want. I do it because I want them to stop living in their narcissistic pseudointellectual fantasyland.

Rad

radorth said:

Like M. Scott Peck did?

Although 100 million people know who he is and why he became a Christian after studying all the other religions, you probably never even read one of his books.

I read him before he was a Christian, but then I do things you wouldn't have time for. You have to be actually searching for truth in order to find it.

And you can't be worried about what your friends think, which at your age may be impossible. I certainly cared too much back when, so I'm not judging you.

Rad

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When it comes to spirituality and philosophy I don't believe in looking to what other people say for insight. I hadn't heard of him though I might seek out some of his literature.

I am going to have to agree with vaj you must derive some pleasure from being condescending to make remarks like "but then I do things you wouldn't have time for." You are making a judgement of my character based on one sentence I wrote on a message board.

Since you picked on organized religion to follow I would have said you were the one who cared more about what your friends think. Do you think you would be a Christian if you had been born in Iran? China? India? Japan?

*ahem* (sorry to interupt apparent dispute..)

I've studied Islam... managed to get quite a handle on Modern Standard Egyptian Arabic in the process.

I've read a heck of a lot of secondary literature, as well. Particularly in comparative religion and phil. of religion.

yes yes.

Islam is closer to Christianity than many poeple believe. The Qur'an talks about Christ, Moses and Abraham more than it does Mohamed. It also confirms the Torah and the Gospels and Divine Revelations of God.

Also, Muslims await the Second Coming of Christ as their saviour and believe in Jesus strongly. They should be seen more as allies than our historic ennemy.

It is nonsense to say that it is a violent religion. One thing to remember that God has taught us. JUDGE NOT A RELIGION BY ITS PEOPLE, BUT BY ITS SCRIPTURE.

When reading the Qur'an, we have to understand that it was revealed to Mohamed over a period of 23 years, starting when he was 40. So yes, some parts may be hostile to Non-Muslims, but when those verses are examined from a historic perspective and when that specific verse was revealed, we see why God might have addressed Mohamed in those words.

I know not one Muslim who hates Christians just because they are Christian. In this increasing world of atheism and immorality, we need to find allies in those who worship God and God alone.

Also very important not to judge Islam by the practices of some countries like Saudi Arabia. They have NOTHING to do with what Islam is all about. Especially that Islam is no longer truely practiced anywhere in the world. It is given lip service if anything.

Muslims are going through their own dark ages. They helped Europe get out of the dark ages, let's help them get out of theirs!

.M

Confirms the Torah.... sort of. Insists that the Torah was tampered with.. so what is really ratified by the Qu'ran?

I have found that the arabic word for "Gospel" and "Bible" as found in the Qu'ran present trouble when translating it - as regards finding the proper referent for the word.

Mephster said:

Confirms the Torah.... sort of. Insists that the Torah was tampered with.. so what is really ratified by the Qu'ran?

I have found that the arabic word for "Gospel" and "Bible" as found in the Qu'ran present trouble when translating it - as regards finding the proper referent for the word.

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Why not believe in the tampering hypotheses?

Among all the religious books that exist today, the Quran is the only one that has the privilege of being compiled and approved by the Prophet who received it. Azvesta, the book of Zoroastrian, was compiled 1,500 years after the death of its author. Hindu Vedas were written hundreds of years after the death of sages who were described as the authors. The Ramayana was orally transmitted until it was written down 1,600 hundreds of years after the event. The Bhagvad Gita was in the memories of people for hundreds of years before it was committed to writing. The Old Testament was compiled by more than 40 authors. A cursory look at some basic facts suggests that it took a while for the Bible to appear as a final version of scriptures.

Through all that time, that people transmit orally, at least one or two thingsmight have changed. There is resonable doubt.

PLUS, it is the only book that refers to itself by name, and to the religion it brings, also by name.

The Torah or the Gospels are not mentioned by their names. No where do you see the word Bible in the Bible. Nor do they name the religions as Judaism or Christianity.

The Qur'an calls itself the Qur'an (arabic = the recital), and names the religion Islam (arabic = state of submission to God)