baptism necessary to be saved???

aggie03 said:

Mat 7:21 ASV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

The answer to your question is yes, I do believe that is what the Bible, and therefore, God, teaches.

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spirit Baptism for salvation
water baptism for obedience


Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

amen brethern !!

so unless all the things that have happened in the Bible with the baptism of the Holy Spirit happen, then we're not saved? So where are the tongues? The prophecies? The interpretations? The healings? The ressurections? Where is the Holy Spirit coming with power like in Acts 2? Where are all these things? Perhaps these two occurences, in Acts 2 and 10 were what John was referring to, and Christ was greater than him because John could not baptize with the Holy Spirit in this manner. No where, however, is this baptism of the Holy Spirit made a condition of our salvation. Water baptism is.

Okay, this is becoming a debate..... I blame myself. Anyway, I stand behind my belief until I find it written in the bible that baptism is necessary. I mean, I've seen things that say it's for obedience and such, but I haven't seen anything that says it is absolutely necessary. LoL, I have been baptised in the holy spirit though, on my mission trip. I asked God for the gift of speaking in tounges, and he granted. I am not all that great at it yet, but then again I didn't expect it to be an overnight thing. It's pretty cool. I wish I could interpret tounges, though, it would be a more convenient gift. I mean, it's not nice to pray for somebody in tounges when they can't understand what you are saying, but if somebosdy was praying in tounges, and someone could interpret, wouldn't that be the most awesome thing? Sorry that I'm off topic, but it just seemed to be getting debatish and I didn't want to add that. o_o;;

2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight\

if tongues sight

Huh? I'm confused.... What did you mean by that?

GLobexgirl - I have a reply that I've been working on to your earlier post in here, there's also an actual debate taking place right now about baptism. If you would like to check that out it's here: http://www.christianforums.com/t49371

As far as the spiritual gifts you just mentioned, this is an important part of what we are talking about here, would you mind starting a thread on it and let me know where it's at?

You are right Globex, this is turning into a debate. But it is not your fault. As a believer, you are an heir to the kingdom. God will continue to sanctify you from the inside out...this is a wonderful journey of our lives!! May He continue to reveal His Word and Truth to you.

I'de be happy to make a post about Spiritual gifts, but what should I say. Should I just post about my speaking in tounges or what? And I'm thinking about putting it in this forum: Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology
The forum to discuss the doctrine & nature of God the Father, Christ the Son & the Holy Spirit.
Or would it go somewhere else? I'm new to the forums and all...

I used to wonder the exact same thing myself - where does it say anywhere in the Bible that baptism is part of our salvation? Here's the answer:

1Pe 3:21 KJV

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

How does baptism save us? Well it's not just the fact that you're getting dipped in the water, because it's not the removal of dirt from our bodies, but the fact that at the point of baptism we are connected with the ressurection of Jesus Christ. It is a condition, not the only condition, that God has placed upon our salvation. And, just as you have said, we have to do the will of God, and this is part of His will .

Okay..... I have no argument for that. Hmmmm...

Ever since I was reborn I decided to believe whatever I cam across in the bible as true. Alright, I guess I accept that, but I'm still confused by it all. Alright, I had to go run upstairs and grab my Bible and find that verse, but I get it now. I have "The Message" it explains things more clearly for my little mind to comprehend. Anyway
1 Peter 3:21:
The Waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you though Jesus' resurrection before God with a clear conscience.

I get it, now... *mental note* Thanks a lot for clearing that up!

Just another question now, because I know there are certain ways to go by to be baptised, and such, but what about people in countries that don't have anybody that can baptise them. Would they go to heaven just by saying the Lords prayer or what?

Let's take a closer look at the passage that aggie03 just brought up.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: KJV

Peter is making a comparison between the way that water saved Noah through the flood and the way water saves us through baptism.

So let's first think about how water saved Noah. Noah and his family lived in a world completely full of wickedness. They were the only 8 righteous souls on the entire planet. So we can say that Noah was surrounded by sin.

God, through the waters of the flood removed all of that wickedness from around Noah and his family. The same water that removed that sin also lifted up Noah's ark and separated he and his family from the wickedness.

Now let's compare that to how water saves us. Before being baptized, we are creatures who are full of sin.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; KJV

This passage clearly shows the state of sin that we are all in prior to salvation. We are surrounded by our own sin in the same way that Noah was surrounded by the sins of the world. God used the flood waters to separate Noah from that sin, and he uses the water in baptism to separate us from our sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. KJV

Rom 6 tells us that baptism is putting to death the old man of sin and arising a new man that no longer walks in that sin.

Just as there was nothing special about the water in the flood, there is nothing special or magical about the water in baptism. It is through the fact that we are responding from a good conscience toward God that enables baptism to wash away our sins, just as the flood washed away the sin in this world.

Globex-

"And you were also included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is a gift from God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out 'Abba, Father'. So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir." Galatians 4:6-7

You have the promised Holy Spirit. How do you know? you have evidence of the Spirit's presence within you. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to live in us... John 14:15-21

I just love this forum... I have no response, I'm speechless. Amazing isn't it? I luff choo guys! Thatnks for the input and answers, everyone!

Do I have to repent? Do I have to confess? Do I first have to hear the word of God before I can believe? The answer to all of these is yes. So because these are conditions that are placed upon my salvation does this mean that I don't have to believe? No. If you use this logic with belief, then you must also use it with baptism. Baptism is a condition that God has placed on our salvation and until we meet that condition - all of the conditions - we cannot receive His grace. It's that simple...really .

Baptism is necessary for salvation. First of all, acts 2:38 says to be baptized for the remission of sins. this is pretty simple. what if I say, put gas in your car for it to run. will it run without gas? you will not be saved without baptism. God told us what to do and how to do it and that is what we should do. there are five steps to salvation.

1. hear the gospel Romans 10:14-17
2. believe in Christ John 8:24
3. Repent of your sins Acts 3:19
4. confess jesus christ Matthew 10:32-33
5. be baptized galatians 3:26-27
mark 16:16
Romans 6:3-4
acts 8:34-39
1 peter 3:21
acts 22:16
www.scripturessay.com this is a good website to answer your questions.

Aggie-

You are cofused in what works are.

When our hearts desire God over our selfishness, we turn to Him, we hear the message and believe. That is all it takes. Our turning from sin is not from us, but because God has come to live in us. We cant overcome sin, nor can we come up with the Gospel message. It is given to us. It isnt a "work" but a desire to say we are sorry for rebelling against God, and we desire to live for Him.

But baptism is a ritual preformed.

This was addressed in the NT when there were two groups who claimed to be followers of Christ. Both these groups held to the teachings of Jesus as taught by the apostles . One group believed that salvation was through Christ alone, while the other believed the teachings of Jesus but added certain Jewish religious practices, particularly circumcision. Even though both groups apparently held that Christ was Savior, the authority of Scripture, acknowledged the presence of the Holy Spirit, both were evangelistic, and both at one time or another were accepted as genuine followers of Jesus Christ by many first century congregations. They both loved Jesus and the Gospel message.

So, what did Paul say about this? Paul told the one group, the Judiazers who were applying gospel + works that their gospel "is really no gospel at all." (Galatians 1:6-9)

The view that circumcision was necessary for salvation was eventually lost, but it was not long before another religious work took the place of circumcision. History records that a growing effort to impose baptism as a religious work necessary for salvation came into being. Now, preaching the Gospel with baptism added a as necessary for salvation, individuals influenced by Judiazers beliefs found new life for their faith in power of religious works. The effect was to convince people that they were made right with God by a religious work preformed by a church official. Baptism, circumcision, or whatever, any religious work added to the Gospel makes it "no gospel at all". Biblically, baptism is only for those who have already been made right with God through faith in Christ alone.

suzie said:

Biblically, baptism is only for those who have already been made right with God through faith in Christ alone.

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I notice there's no scriptural reference...

"In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead..." (Col. 2:11-12)

There is no resurrection in Christ without sharing in His death... (read John 3:5-4:1)

"Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Can you site some references in the OT foreshadowing Baptism?

suzie said:

Aggie-

You are cofused in what works are.

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I think the confusion may be arising because you are assuming that there is only one kind of work, when there are actually at least 2.

There are boastful works as outlined in Ephesians 2:9

Ephesians 2:9 ASV

not of works, that no man should glory.

Another word for glory that is commonly used is boast. So there are works or glorying, or boastful works. For instance, should I happen to be able to build a tower to heaven and jump off in front of the throne of God then I had no help from God in getting there. That would be something that I could boast, or glory, about.

Act 10:34-35 ASV

And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.

This passage from Acts clearly outlines another type of works, righteous works. It also says that in order to be acceptable to God these are necessary.

When our hearts desire God over our selfishness, we turn to Him, we hear the message and believe. That is all it takes.

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I would like to see from scripture exactly where it says this all we have to do - ever. On the contrary, again, when we look at the SUM of God's word we will see that there are other things that God commands us to do. What can working God's will be called other than working righteousness???

Our turning from sin is not from us, but because God has come to live in us. We cant overcome sin, nor can we come up with the Gospel message. It is given to us. It isnt a "work" but a desire to say we are sorry for rebelling against God, and we desire to live for Him.

But baptism is a ritual preformed.

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Let's see what the Bible has to say about that:

Mark 16:16 ASV

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 ASV

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Chirst tells us that baptism is necessary for our salvation - why? - because just like Noah was saved through the water BY GOD, so are we. When we are baptized for the remission of sins, our sins are forgiven us and we are raised to a newness of life (Romans 6:4).

You still have not presented a single Scripture that says baptism is a just a symbol and has no meaning other than a community identification. In all sincerety and honesty, please, truthfully examine what the Scriptures teach. They say straightout baptism is necessary. No where does it say that baptism is just a symbol of identification with a community of believers.

So, what did Paul say about this? Paul told the one group, the Judiazers who were applying gospel + works that their gospel "is really no gospel at all." (Galatians 1:6-9)

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When you remove pieces of the gospel, like is being done with the removal of baptism, then you have no gospel at all either.

The view that circumcision was necessary for salvation was eventually lost, but it was not long before another religious work took the place of circumcision. History records that a growing effort to impose baptism as a religious work necessary for salvation came into being. Now, preaching the Gospel with baptism added a as necessary for salvation, individuals influenced by Judiazers beliefs found new life for their faith in power of religious works. The effect was to convince people that they were made right with God by a religious work preformed by a church official. Baptism, circumcision, or whatever, any religious work added to the Gospel makes it "no gospel at all". Biblically, baptism is only for those who have already been made right with God through faith in Christ alone.

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Where is your evidence for this. All I am asking for, with sincerety and honesty , is for the evidence to your claims. I have shown you many places where Scripture indicates the Truth is not what you are claiming. Baptism was preached as part of the gospel of Christ by the Apostles and the first century Christians. It is necessary, it is truth, it is from God.

There is a formal debate going on right now which has some very good reasoning from the Scriptures which show why baptism is necessary. You might want to check that out as well. http://www.christianforums.com/t50167

There is a place for non-participant comments if you would like to make them, they would be more than welcome!

Faith - Something believed as a result of testimony or evidence.

Rom. 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing from the word of God

Faith does not come through a miraculous operation that falls from heaven hitting some and missing others. God's fairness offers salvation to all who "feareth him" and "worketh righteousness."

The necessity of faith:
Acts 15:9; Rom. 5:1; Acts 16:31; John 3:16

These scriptures stress the necessity of faith, but none of the verses say that "faith only" saves!

Note the passage where "faith only" is used: "Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24

FAITH ALONE DOES NOT SAVE. carefully consider these versus: john 12:42-43 and James 2:19.

Faith saves us when it drives us to obey God. Consider the faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, and others - Heb. 11:4-32

BAPTISM IS COMMANDED - Acts 10:48 - "and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." see also Matt. 28:19

Baptism is required for salvation. Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins....." , also see Mk 16:16.

To say that faith alone saves is completely inconsistent with the bible. We are commanded to be baptized.