Are we grafted in or not?

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CharlesYTK

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chanahs said:
As to your first point, not at all. Judaism teaches that anyone can be a faithful follower, according to how he was called. If a Jew, as a Jew. If a Gentile, as a Gentile. You might want to read what I wrote under Applicability of Halacha in Jewish Debates. It is the second post I believe. Faithfulness has nothing to do with the number of laws you are required to follow. Women have a lot fewer commands which they are required to follow than men. That doesn't mean they can't be faithful or are less faithful.

As I showed in a previous post, in the world to come, there will only be Israel. Righteous gentiles at that time are associated with Israel although they are not Jews.

As far as right now, yes, there are some commands which are not applicable to Gentiles and are solely associated with the Jews. And yes, this is for the purpose of exclusivity. People coming from western type educational backgrounds, and especially those from the US where individuality is so important, have a hard time with this. The Jews are not simply a race of people with their converts who are to live as individuals throughout the world. The Jews were chosen to be a nation. God displays Himself to the world through a nation. The platform or stage is to be the land of Israel. I personally have seen the bewilderment in Asia concerning this little tiny nation Israel which all these huge countries seem to want. It is a very different setup than what Yeshua was doing. He was setting up his body as pockets throughout the world by which love was to be demonstrated. This was to be demonstration through communities dispersed throughout the world at the local level. This is their role so to speak. On the other hand, God wanted to demonstrate Himself at the national level through a localization of a people as a nation on a specific piece of land. This is the role of the chosen nation. Some of the commands, like living in Israel as well as some others, were to demonstrate and maintain this separateness (especially since God knew that dispersion would take place and they needed to be preserved culturally in order to be returned) for fulfilling the national level calling.
Thank you for the return post. I understand what you are saying. I agree for the most part, except perhaps one small detail. There will be nations other than Israel in the world to come, but they will be satellites to Israel and will be required to be obedient to Messiahs rule. Israel will rule over the other nations. It is my belief based on the teachings of Yeshua the Righteous Gentiles who live in active faith in this age, will have priviledge within Israels Messianic Kingdom, and will be accorded a status equal to full conversion under Rabinical Judaism, because of their faithfulness. This is the life Quest of many Gentiles. Not to replace Israel, but to stand with Israel beginning now and continuing into the World to Come.
 
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Henaynei

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A review of the forum rules........
Messianic Froum rules:

1) Participation: This forum is open to all Messianics (3a), Christians and non-Messianic Jews. Those who are neither Christian nor Jewish members are not allowed to post here. Non-Messianic Jews must abide by the following rules, with the exception that they may debate in the sub-forum Jewish Debate.


3) Non-Messianic Posts: Non-Messianic members (eg. Protestant, Catholic, Non-Messianic Jewish members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Messianic Judaism doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Messianic members. Any debate or apologetic posts, as well as efforts to answer questions about Messianic Judaism by Non-Messianic members will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum (or other appropiate forum) and warnings will be issued. In other words, only Messianic members can debate, answer questions about Messianic Judaism or engage in apologetics here.
From this point onward respondants to this thread will be confined to those allowed by MJ Forum rules.

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chanahs

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Henaynei said:
A review of the forum rules........
From this point onward respondants to this thread will be confined to those allowed by MJ Forum rules.

Can you open under the Jewish section: Questions about Judaism like you have for Debates and Halacha?

Many posts would be suited for such a section.
 
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Henaynei

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chanahs said:
Can you open under the Jewish section: Questions about Judaism like you have for Debates and Halacha?

Many posts would be suited for such a section.
There is no reason that such questions could not be asked in the Jewish Debate Section if input from the non-Messianic Jewish members is sought. Questions posted elsewhere in this forum are, by rule and defination, seeking Messianic answers :)

b'Shalom
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chanahs

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Henaynei said:
There is no reason that such questions could not be asked in the Jewish Debate Section if input from the non-Messianic Jewish members is sought. Questions posted elsewhere in this forum are, by rule and defination, seeking Messianic answers :)
I guess I find that somewhat offensive. There are a lot of negative overtones associated with Jewish Debate. Debate is a strong term for someone wanting to discuss something or who has a question. If you don't want to open a new category, may I suggest you change the title 'Jewish Debate' to 'Jewish Discussion' or 'Discussions with non-Messianic Jews'? The word 'discussion' would allow for debates and simple questions without all the overtones which can be associated with 'debate'.
 
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visionary

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I like discussion, which is definitely more inviting.

True enough, the Juish Debate, I believe, was formed for an outreach to the Jewish community.

Discussions with non-messianic believers should have a spot safely within Messianic Judaism forum so it can be moderated to a learning experience, and understanding difficult concepts and texts without an avalance of secular or other distractions from the discussion which is focussed on our understanding and why.
 
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ShirChadash

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I am a little confused I guess...

it seems to me rather commonplace that if someone mentiones the RCC's view on some matter in any thread, it is fine for Catholics to come onto that (non-OBOB) thread/forum and post a comment to clarify their position, but of course it wouldn't be fine for them to continue to post about it in a debating sort of manner, just for them to offer an informative point of view.

Since this forum is for discussing Messianic Judaism, which is definitely a merging of both Messianic and Jewish concepts and teachings... well, lately I've had some difficulty understanding why Jews are not allowed to post the Jewish (from whatever branch of Judaism) point of view on any given thing, as long as they do not argue for their POV, but rather offer it for informational/clarification purposes.

Not posted with an intent to be critical nor argumentative whatsoever. But this doesn't make sense to me. Even Catholics/Baptists/Lutherans/etc. would be able to post for clarification of their beliefs here if they weren't arguing (at least, that's what happens, frequently, and certainly not in this forum alone) and are not restricted to 'how's the weather" alone posting on this forum. I realize that Jews are not Christians, but if there is special permission for this forum alone for the Jewish brethren to post here (more than just reading, which is allowed for anyone of any other faith) then they should be able to at least post as freely as the other "denominations" here... it seems to me... :scratch:

:sorry:
 
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ShirChadash

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SOrry - i had a brain burp. I assume when you say this, you mean "at CF as a whole" and not "on the MJ forum itself".
CharlesYTK said:
Even Messianics, "Red Headed stepchildren" must walk very careully, as if on egg shells. We are not entirely welcome here.

"The long heald traditions of Men will not yield even to overwhelming scriptural evidence!"

"Truth is reduced to what the majority agrees to."
 
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Henaynei

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chanahs said:
I guess I find that somewhat offensive. There are a lot of negative overtones associated with Jewish Debate. Debate is a strong term for someone wanting to discuss something or who has a question. If you don't want to open a new category, may I suggest you change the title 'Jewish Debate' to 'Jewish Discussion' or 'Discussions with non-Messianic Jews'? The word 'discussion' would allow for debates and simple questions without all the overtones which can be associated with 'debate'.
This is an ides worthy of consideration :) I will present it to the moderation staff for review - thanks :)
 
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By Grace

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This is something I'm pulling in from another thread, so as to not get the other thread off track:

CharlesYTK said:
Jill,
I really think that this little piece would help with some of your questions.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cfryalls/quickquestionstorah.html
Thanks for the link, Charles. I'm e-mailing my friend right now so she can see it.

I have a question for you about something that was on that page:

"The Ten Commandments are meant for all men. It was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt, both Israelites and Gentiles, and the law was given to all of them. And the covenants and the blessings were given to both as well. "

Does that mean we, as Gentiles, are equally included in the Mosaic Covenant? Somehow I was thinking that the Abrahamic Covenant applied to us, but that the Mosaic Covenant applied only to Jews. (Even though we're still free to follow the commandments if we choose, and there are blessings for us in doing so, not to mention the most important fact that the commandments are our guideline for how G-d wants us to behave.)

TIA,
 
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CharlesYTK

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This is a very big subject. Both covenants are made primarily with the people God calls Israel. The ten commandments is not the same as the Mosaic covenant. It is a feature of that covenant. The covenant really is a marriage contract betwen God and Israel, and states stipulations and provisions, If you follow my commandments and ordinances then I will bless you in the land that I am giving you and prosper you.

Abraham's covenant was a one sided covenant with the promise that God would be his God and that he would make a great nation(s) from Abraham, and provide them with a home, based completely on Gods faithfulness, and Abrahams righteousness.

Gentiles think of themselves as part of the Abrahamic coveant because it says that he is the father of all those who are saved through faith. In other words he is the pattern, the example we are to follow. But that does not make you a blood relation of Abraham.

The bottom line for Gentiles is that we are adopted sons, and as such have part in the promises and the responsibilities given to sons. We should se ourselves as sons and behave as sons, which means obedience to Gods laws. This is where things get a bit confusing, because there is a lot of disagreement about which laws, Gentiles should be obedient to. And the answer in part is, not things that don't pertain to them, like the livite laws for the priesthood and temple service. But the moral laws, and such apply to all who have attached themselves to Israel through faith and live like sons, even without rabbinical conversion, because it is through our faith that we are "Grafted in" adopted. Keep in mind that Ephraim and Manasseh were both born to a Gentile mother (Azaraneth) but Jacob adopted them as his own sons and made them to be two of the twelve tribes.
 
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By Grace

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I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but I've been digging for an answer on this for weeks now. If we are adopted sons into Israel, through our conversion through faith, when we become Abraham's seed, does that mean that when Scripture talks about the house of Israel, it could also be referring to us? Not in the sense that we replace the Jews, but just in the sense that we're included?

My mom and I were talking about this this weekend. Are the Jews descended specifically from the Tribe of Judah? Or do they include descendents from all 12 tribes?

And based on something I was looking at last night, your comment about Joseph's sons reminded me of another question. If his two sons were adopted by Jacob, were there actually 13 tribes, since there are two tribes from Joseph?
 
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