No One Can Stop Sinning ...What ?

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 4, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
What your saying TwoWitnessesUSdotcom is that Jesus is able to always keep us from dropping that present on the floor and although I believe he is able to do this I don't see him doing this. Enter free will...Jesus doesn't ever want to see us dropping his present on the floor but he also doesn't want to control us as robots.

There we have it! Are you aware that we are NOT to seek our own will, but to seek the will of the Father? Anyone who claims to follow Messiah and seeks his own will is not a follower, for Messiah did ONLY the will of the Father!

If we refuse to allow Messiah to "steady" us so that we do not drop "the present," then we are, as you say, being childish.

"when I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1 Corinthians 13: 11)

You have us staying a child forever, and sinning until the day we die (which we just may) but if so, it's not because we "couldn't stop sinning" but rather that we chose to exercise our own free will and continue to sin! Quit blaming your "nature" for your sins, when you have the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is ready, willing and able to make you into a NEW CREATURE! If you don't sieze this gift and utilize it, you cannot blame your "nature," trust me on this!

You have NEVER answered my points concerning 1 Corinthians 15: 51- 58. These verses state clearly that there will be a generation who does not "sleep" but will reach this sinless perfected state in their lifetimes! So much for the false prophecy "you can never stop sinning in this life, brother, you have to die to stop sinning!" Here is a PROMISE that you don't have to "sleep" to be changed into a sinless creature! Furthermore, this sinless state comes about because of our "labor" according to verse 58! It's not something we wait around for God to do IN US, it's something we labor in, and our "labor is not in vain."

Look at what we know, that 1. We are to strive to be perfect, sinless, just like Messiah, and 2. Some day a group of believers, an entire generation will actually become perfect, sinless. Those who say "we will never be perfect" are therefore false prophets, and there's no way around it! Look at the evidence. The Bible tells us to be "perfect", the Bible tells us to "strive" to be perfect, and the Bible tells us that someday the believers who are ALIVE on the earth will be perfect, without ever dying first. The evidence therefore concludes those who say "we can't be perfect" as liars!

Your only argument is that "yes, we will be perfect" but only when that "day" arrives. Yet YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT DAY THAT IS, it could be today! You are so much as saying "I can't be perfect today because it's not the appointed day." You make yourself a false prophet as well, for "no man knows the day or the hour."

The only POSSIBLE way you could say that this event in which we are all "changed" into perfect, sinless, immortal creatures is NOT TODAY is if you KNEW FOR A FACT that we are NOT the generation of which is spoken here, and YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT, for no man knows the day or the hour.

Finally, Messiah will return when you least expect it, for you have said in your heart "my Lord delays his coming," I can't be perfect today, I have to wait for his coming! Yet, he could come this very second. THEREIN LIES YOUR BIGGEST ERROR!

J. Dean

nephilimiyr · Aug 5, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
So, you are saying whatever Messiah said to the Jews (or pharisees) it doesn't apply to us,

I'm saying that in the context of the passages in chapter 8 Jesus is directly answering the questions by the Jews who he says "are from beneath" and are like their father the devil. Jesus is giving truth to nonbelievers, not believers. What Jesus said to them once did apply to us because we were servants to sin also but now that we have been born again we are not servants to sin thus this saying by Jesus no longer applies.

You haven't proved that, not scripturally,

I'm not out to prove anything but only to state what I believe and why I believe it. If you don't agree with me there's no way I can prove anything to you. It's next to impossible for anyone to tell someone blue is blue if their convinced it's green. Judging by your posts here you are spiritually discerned believeing you know it all already and have nothing to learn. I've posted scriptures to show why I believe what I believe. You've showed that you have a different interpretation of them. I say you are wrong and are following a false doctrine.

furthermore, your logic is flawed. Messiah said that they were vipers and snakes, because they teach Moses' law, but do not even follow it themselves. I can conclude, therefore, using your logic, that it's ok for ME to teach Moses' law, but not follow it, because I am a believer, and Messiah was only talking to the Pharisees!

You can conclude that if you will but you would be wrong in doing so. Jesus didn't answer them because they taught the law but because they didn't obey it. They were sinners who were unrepentant and this is why Jesus says "whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin".

As christians we are not just supposed to teach the law of Moses but also the fulfillment of Gods plan of salvation. Useing my logic, those are your words, what Jesus says to the Jews in John 8 is that before sinners come to him they must realize they are servants of sin. Because we believers already know this and have already applied this to ourselves what Jesus said to them doesn't apply to us now but it did before we believed on him. Why because we are not servants of sin anymore, understand? It could only apply to us if we were servents of sin but we believers in Christ are not!

The pharisess were called hypocrites because they taught one thing and did another, but that doesn't apply to me because I'm a "believer?" The pharisees were told they were servants to sin, because they sin, but that doesn't apply to me because I'm a believer? That means that almost everything that Messiah said to EVERYONE, unless he was talking directly to his disciples, does not apply to me!

Do you just purposely plan to be sarcastic because you refuse to listen to anyone else? Are you so spiritually discerned that even the possibility of misunderstanding me is out of the question?

The Pharisees were told they were servants to sin not just because they sinned but because they let sin reign in themselves. If they believed on Jesus and repented of their sins and walked in the light sin would find no dominion in them. It's quite simple I don't no why you refuse to understand what I'm saying? I do know what your writting tells me your totally missing my point.

By your logic, if Messiah told the Pharisees, "you must be born again to see the kingdom of Heaven," (which he did tell a pharisee), that doesn't apply to me, I don't have to be born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven, because when Messiah said this he was talking to a Pharisee and not believers!

It's not that it never did apply to you but since you have been born again already it doesn't apply to you anymore. You can't keep being born again, and again, and again like some evangelical Gabor sister!

Messiah did not say "whoever commits sin is a servant to sin, unless he's a believer, then he can commit sin all day long and not be a servant to it." You are adding a lot to the message of Messiah.

And your adding alot to what I wrote, in fact I didn't say any of that. Again for the umteenth time, there's a big difference between letting sin reign or sinning all day long and committing a sin.

Your totally missing my point and I'm starting to think on purpose. It's not that Jesus is saying christians have liberty to sin all day long it's the simple fact that Jesus isn't talking to or about believers at all here and that's why it doesn't apply to us. Just like when Jesus after the resurrection commanded that we believers go and teach all nations and baptise in his name doesn't apply to nonbelievers. This commandment can only apply to believers.
We are not servants of sin nor do we sin all day long but we walk in the spirit, we walk in the light. We are not the ones claiming we don't have to be subject to any man or thing other than Abraham but the Jews Jesus was talking to said that therefore it doesn't apply to us.

nephilimiyr · Aug 5, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
What made them children of the devil? According to John it was their sin!

To find out what made them children of the devil we must look at why Jesus called them that and in John 8 Jesus makes himself very clear about it.

John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3: 4- 9
" 4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law,
5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, niether known him.
7 Little children, let no man decieve you; he that does righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous
8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil
9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

It seems to me you left out a very important part of these passages and that's verses 2 and 3...

1 John 3:2-3, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.This is saying that we are the sons of God but yet we wont be like him untill he appears. In other words we wont change from corruptable to incorruptible any time that we are living now but only when Jesus appears.
1 Cor. 15:53, For this corruptible must put on incorruptible, and this mortal must put on immortality. corruptible is talking about our sin nature and the mortal is talking about our bobies. And John is saying this wont happen until Jesus appears.

These verses don't say "whoever commits a lot of sins is a child of the devil," they don't say that "he who commits sin is of the devil, (unless of course they are a believer, then it's ok).

And I don't nor have I said that either.

You take far too many liberties with the word of God sir. Either believe it all, or reject it all, don't pick and choose, please!

The liberties you see me taking is from your misunderstanding of what I'm saying.

If you are "cleansed of all sin," it means there is no more sin in you! It's not saying that it cleanses you of sin, so that you can turn right around and get down and dirty in sin, all over again!

What it's saying is that it makes us pure as Jesus cleans us form our sins. Now for the umteenth time once again I don't nor have I suggested that forgiveness of our sins means that we have liberty to sin again. These are your words not mine. You are the one who thinks that's what I'm saying. I mean just because I believe that Jesus forgives us of our sins doesn't mean I believe it's ok to sin again.

It says if we say we "have not sinned," which is past tense, my friend! You have taken this verse completely out of context. You did not include verse 10.

No it certainly does not say "have not sinned" but rather "have no sin" now who is the one here taking liberties? That doesn't make it past tense but present tense and you know very well that I am useing the 8th verse so now read it again please! And don't call me your friend if you don't mean it because that's lieing.

"If we say that we have not SINNED (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

I didn't include this because I didn't have to to make my point or to ask my question in which you never answered. John is useing both present and past tense to show that we sin and that Jesus forgives to those who confess.

You say that he's talking to those who are "walking in the light." He NEVER says this, what he says is "IF" we walk in the light." The question is, what do you call, walking in light, and what do you call walking in darkness? You call claiming that you are following Messiah, yet living a life full of sin "walking in the light?" You have put light for darkness and darkness for light! Sinning is walking in darkness!

Yeah you got me there! I see where messed up. However John is still writting this letter to believers in Christ not to the sons of the devil.

Oh brothers, there you go again! Your amazing...For the umteenth time TwoWitnessesUSdotcom I don't nor have I claimed to be living a life full of sin. I claimed from the beginning that I sin. That yes every once in a while I make mistakes. I don't walk in darkness but when I do fall into it I pick myself back up and go to the Lord for forgiveness.

Furthermore, you completely ignore Chapter 2 verse 1 which says "My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not..."

Forgive me for not wanting to write a book here in which what your doing is makeing me think I already am!

You conveniently cut the verse off at the most important part! Here, I'll finish it for you. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Why would he say that if it's impossible to stop sinning? He wouldn't write to us in the hopes that we would do something that's impossible? Is he an idiot?

I'm still trying to figure out why you wanted to ignor the last half of that verse.... Oh but now I see! It's because you want to claim I'm calling him an idiot, right? I don't know, you tell me. I think the real reason is because it casts doubt on your interpretations.

That's not what he saying at all. John is saying that he's writting these thing's so we do not sin BUT that if we do we have an advocate with the Father.

Now let me ask you a question. Why would John include that part you didn't want to include if it was possible for us to live sin free? If the message your saying John is talking about here is true why is he stressing that if we do sin we can still receive forgiveness? I mean even you yourself have been saying it's not good or wise for us to preach that it's not possible to live sin free because otherwise no one will believe it or strive for it. John here is saying exactly what you say we shouldn't preach!

Oh and what about verse 2, why are you ignoring that one?
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Seem like present tense to me...

IN verse 4 he says "he that says I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him."

Again, don't let sin reign in you otherwise if you say you know him you are a liar. The verse puts commandments as plural meaning multiple sins which tells me what John is saying is talking about sin reigning in you.

What commandents are we to keep?

1 John 3: 23
"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son, Yahshua Messiah, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Now, friend, if I love you, I'm not going to sin against you! Love is the fulfillment of the law. If I harm you with a sin, that is not love!

This is true, I agree...HEY! I agree with you on that, LOL, I think that's the first time I've said that to you!

ummm...except the you calling me friend part. Again if you don't consider me a friend don't lie to me or yourself. And I don't care if your being sarcastic either.

How does my saying, "Yes I have sinned, and even now I fall into the flesh and sin, but someday I will walk without sin, if I believe and ask for this" contradict 1 John 1: 8? It doesn't. Only in the mind of one who refuses to believe.

Because the first chapter of 1 John says that we all sin both in present and past tense. If you say that one day you will walk without sin you are deceiving yourself because that's what John is saying. John isn't saying that we will one day be sinless unless he's talking about after Jesus appears. Now has Jesus come again? I think not!

Why would ANYONE work toward a goal that they thoroughly believe in their hearts is IMPOSSIBLE, and that they are never going to attain to? Let's be real here! Don't try to insult my sensibilities. NO ONE is going to work for an unattainable goal!

Yes you got me again. I didn't explain myself very well here. It isn't so much a goal of our's to become perfect and without sin as you say but it should be our endeavor to always walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. Because we are in the flesh we will stumble along our way from time to time but it is our belief that when we do fall we have an advocate with the Father named Jesus Christ.

It is not I that say we will be perfect some day, it is the scriptures, it's not my fault if you and those who agree with you choose to ignore those scriptures, which are numbered nearly in the hundreds, and choose instead to latch onto one obscure verse in 1 John 1:8 which APPEARS to say what you believe, but only if you don't read more than a few verses of the text!

What is numbered in the hundreds are the scriptures that say Jesus is faith to forgive us our sins past or present tense. If your belief in this was true why the need for all these scriptures saying we have an advocate if we do sin? Like you said if the goal of living a sin free life was attainable why would God stress in his book that he is faithful to forgive us our sins?

I don't see any scripture stateing that we can attain a sin free life down here. Not one! I see srciptures saying that our life to come will be sin free...

Friend you lie to yourself look at Romans 6: 13 again

"Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin; but yeild yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as intruments of righteousness unto God."

I see no where in that scripture that states or even hints that a sin free life down here is attainable. All this is is Peter telling us what to do to stop sin from reigning in us.

What baffles me most about your opinion is that you never say how many sins constitutes "letting sin reign." How many, 6 per day? 7 per day? What is it, seven times seventy per day? How much sin is too much sin? You never say, this leaves it entirely up to you to decide how much sin is too much sin. Yet the scriptures tell us to yield our members, not to sin, but to God. If you are yielding your members unto God, you are not sinning! If you are sinning, and you claim to yield your members to God, you are saying that God is sinning!

Only God can judge that. You want for me to play God and give you a direct answer? This is exactually why I haven't given a number because only God knows what in the heart of a man. What baffles me is that you think enticeing me to give you a number is a just act on your part. Funny I somehow knew you'd get around to asking me this...shame on you!

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 5, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
We are not servants of sin nor do we sin all day long but we walk in the spirit, we walk in the light. We are not the ones claiming we don't have to be subject to any man or thing other than Abraham but the Jews Jesus was talking to said that therefore it doesn't apply to us.

You ARE saying you are not subject! You are saying you are not subject to the LAW! Yet the scriptures state that the only one who is not subject to the law is the one who walks in the law of love! If I walk in the law of love, I will not sin.

There's nothing sarcastic at all in my last response to you, nothing! I was taking your logic to it's logical conclusion. That is not sarcasm!

What are the facts. 1. We sin
2. God hates sin
3. Messiah said he who sins is a servant of sin

Who he was talking to when he said this is completely irrelevant! Only in YOUR mind does it matter, especially since you can show no scripture that says "when you believe you are not a servant of sin when you sin," or at least, "if you believe, and you sin, you remain free of sin." You have no such scriptures.

You were right about one thing though, there's nothin you can say to make me believe what you believe. You are no-one to me, and I'd rather believe God than men! Your beliefs and opinions hold no weight with me. If I allowed them to, I'd be following the teachings of men and would therefore "nullify" the cross in my life!

You don't even know what it means to believe. If you did you would not say that he who believes and sins is not a servant to sin!

What really amazes me is you apparently believe that, even though God hates adultery, if a believer commits adultery God doesn't hate THAT adultery because the person committing it is a "believer." Yet numerous scriptures say that a "true believer" believes he can move mountains! It's odd that you can move mountains but can't seem to keep you member at home in the marriage, but join them to another who is not your wife! Anyone who does something like this is just LYING when they say "I'm a believer and I walk in the light!"

What you don't understand is, when I sin, as a believer, my sin becomes even MORE exceedingly sinful than that of the scribes and pharisees, for they did not have the Holy Spirit living in them when they sinned, and I do! You are trying to say that the sin that pharisees committed was "servitude" because they taught the law of Moses, but not only does a believer teach the law of Moses, he CLAIMS to have the "law written in his heart and mind," through the Holy Spirit, which is the New Covenant.

If those who taught the law of Moses (Pharisees) and sinned, were "servants to sin," how much more so, those who not only teach the law of Moses, but have the life giving Spiritual power of Messiah living in them, and then sin against good conscience?

As I said before, you have yourself good and deceived, and I perceive that NO AMOUNT OF SCRIPTURES that I quote are going to sway you from it.

You won't listen to God through the Holy Spirit, it would be horrible arrogance on my part to expect you to listen to me in a forum post.

I therefore conclude this debate with you, because the Spirit warns me it runs dangerously close to "sensual" striving, and I have already crossed that line once.

I'm still ouching from the conviction I received from the Spirit.

Not that anything thing I said in these posts was wrong, just the way I said it.

Shalom

J. Dean

nephilimiyr · Aug 5, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
You ARE saying you are not subject! You are saying you are not subject to the LAW! Yet the scriptures state that the only one who is not subject to the law is the one who walks in the law of love! If I walk in the law of love, I will not sin.

You are really stretching what I'm saying into what you just said TwoWitnessesUSdotcom. I see you constantly refusing to even attempt to try and understand me. I said we are NOT the ones claiming we are not subject to any man or thing. That means the complete opposite of what your suggesting what I said. Why can't you see that???

And now that you have it in your mind that that's what I said your going to preach to me? Once again J Dean, if I may, you just amaze me!

You say that only in my mind what I'm saying about John 8 is relevant but it's irrelevant however you offer no reason for this. You offer no arguement to what I'm saying other than to tell me I'm wrong.

You were right about one thing though, there's nothin you can say to make me believe what you believe. You are no-one to me,

So the truth finnally comes out, LOL, you don't consider me a friend at all...gee I wonder how many other things your passing off as truth but actually is far from it???

You don't even know what it means to believe.

God is my judge, not you! And for that I am forever thankful!!!

nephilimiyr · Aug 5, 2003

Justmovinalong said:
Find me where it says man obtains perfection in this life...

That's impossible to answer because the scriptures never say this. Although it does say that after we pass on to the next life we will be made perfect. Here's one such instance...
1 Corinthians 15:54-56, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

We are tainted by sin, every man woman and child. I am not saying that we have permission to sin, by no means. And perhaps I know very littlem for I am only 16 years of age and have lived in a dry, dead communtiy all of my life. But I do remeber God teaching me in the quiet place. Perhaps you should think before condemning me. Perhaps you should pray before calling me (I did not know that this forum considered that cursing. Forgive me, I only meant it as the Bible meant it. Iw ill instead say "condemned"), for perhaps these things have haunted me!

Since what you say is true you wont find me condemning you and neither will God!

What do you think I wish for? I would rather be cast into hell than to lead any astray! If I speak falsey than I am mistaken. Tell, where do you find man reaching sinlessness on earth. I implore of you, man of dust, go throughout the day without once having the slightest inkling of envy, for for a month without having come short of God's glory.

I believe you what you say and you do not speak falsely.
1 John 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Psalm 143:2 "Do not bring your servant into judgment, for NO ONE LIVING IS RIGHTEOUS BEFORE YOU!"

No one.... Not you, not me. So what must we do, fellow man of dust? Be sinless? We cannot. We look to Christ.

That was beautiful! Thanks for blessing me with that word

Matthew 9:13 "But go an learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I have come not to call the righteous, but the sinnners."

It is sinners he helps through life. It is sinners he makes righteous.

But do we sit idly by? Do we sin because we can? NO WAY! He calls us to live righteously. but what does that include?

This. Micah 6:8 "He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly before your God."

You are showing me that you have been blessed by the Lord and are wise beyond your years. May God continue to bless you!

Am I saying if you have a sin, say gossip, and you don't think you can quit, does that mean it is okay to continue it. ABSOLUTELY NOT! Or say it was something else, something like drugs, something physically addictive. Since you are physically addicted does that mean you are free to do it? NO! Or lust of the mind? you are addicted to inappropriate content, your mind craves for it. You are mortal, can't you continue? BY NO MEANS!

I was once at one time addicted to inappropriate content. I prayed often asking God to forgive me of this sin but the next day I was back engaging in it again. God helped me slowly but surely to put this sin behind me. Never during that time did I ever think that because I asked God for forgiveness that I was free to engage in it again! I hated myself for this but with God's grace and the help of the Holy Spirit I do claim victory over this! May Gods name be praised!!!

If you still disagree with my views, then do not condemn me to hell (which is what you basically said, though not those words. It is at least how I felt), but talk to me. Try and teach me a clearer view of things.

EDIT: Never did I say we will never obtain perfection. Like C.S. Lewis said, we are constantly meeting people who, if seen in their future forms, we would be awfully tempted to worship or utterly repulsed by. If I did not make myself clear, i am sorry. I know one day we shall, and that is in fact the prize we shoot for, to try and become as close to perfect as we can.

Amen brother!!!

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 6, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
To find out what made them children of the devil we must look at why Jesus called them that and in John 8 Jesus makes himself very clear about it.

John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Any murderer is the child of the father of murder. Any adulterer is the child of the father of adultery. Any sabbath breaker is the child of the father of sabbath breakers. Any idol worshipper is the child of the father of idol worshippers. Any false accuser is the child of the father of false accusers. ETC.

You say "not if you are a believer," then try to claim that you aren't saying that being a believer is license to sin! But you are saying that. You are saying that a non believer is a child of the devil if he sins, but a believer is not a child of the devil if he sins! You commit the same exact offenses that the unbeliever commits, yet you call the unbeliever a wicked sinner who's the child of the devil!

You claim that the condemnations that Messiah heaped on the Pharisees can never be applied to the believer. Thus you manifest that you do think a believer can NEVER be an hypocrite! Yet Messiah said to the disciples, concerning the Pharisees, to "beware the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocricy. Why would Messiah warn believers of being like the Pharisees, if it's impossible for them to be like the Pharisees because they are as you say "believers!"

You most certainly ARE saying that believers have a license to sin! You merely say it in a different way that you think is subtle but sir, you aren't fooling me, and you aren't fooling God!

nephilimiyr said:
It seems to me you left out a very important part of these passages and that's verses 2 and 3...

I didn't leave them "out," they are a given. I have been saying all along that it is for the future.

Furthermore it doesn't say, as you claim, that "we won't be like Yahshua until after he comes," it says "when he comes we will already be like him!" You are a deliberate twister of words.

Finally, even if it was CLEARLY saying we won't be like him until after his return, YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THAT RETURN IS! It could be TODAY! You keep referring this new life we live in Messiah, in perfection as "the next life," but this too is NOT scriptural. Not all of us will die to attain this perfection! For those who are alive when it occurs, we will find ourselves in perfection without ever dying. How can you call it "the next life," when our life has never come to an end?

nephilimiyr said:
Now for the umteenth time once again I don't nor have I suggested that forgiveness of our sins means that we have liberty to sin again.

And I too repeat. You have said it, you are saying it, and you will continue to say it until the Lord of Glory returns, and proves you wrong, but then it might be too late for you.

nephilimiyr said:
No it certainly does not say "have not sinned" but rather "have no sin" now who is the one here taking liberties?

Have I not said all along you "pick and choose what verses you quote deliberately to deceive? Why would you insist on quoting verses 8 and 9 and leave off 10? Do you not know the scriptures were not written in verse? These three verses are all one statement! They cannot be separated. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Who is guilty of saying "I have no sin" more than someone who says "my sin is not sin, because I'm a believer!"

John 1: 8 in no wise says that I can't SOME DAY say that I have no sin! Let's take this logically. If verse 8 means that you can NEVER EVER SAY I HAVE NO SIN, then, even in the "next life," as you call it, you will still have SINS! If the way you are reading this verse is correct, it means you will NEVER be able to say "I have no sin." NOT EVER! Which means, during the thousand year reign, you will still have sin?

Your handling of 1 John 1: 8 is a result of your EARNEST REFUSAL to EVER STOP SINNING. Don't be a "soul who cannot cease from sin." I have already shown the FATE of such a soul!

nephilimiyr said:

I didn't include this because I didn't have to to make my point or to ask my question in which you never answered. John is useing both present and past tense to show that we sin and that Jesus forgives to those who confess.

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NO JOHN IS MERELY SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO CONFESS OUR SINS TO BE FORGIVEN OF THEM! JOHN KNOWS THAT EVERYONE HAS SINS THAT NEED FORGIVING! JOHN IN NO WISE IS TELLING YOU THAT YOU CAN'T STOP SINNING! IN FACT HE SAYS "I'M WRITING THIS TO YOU SO THAT YOU DON'T SIN AT ALL!"

James says "faith without works is dead!" Your "belief" is dead when you commit the same acts as a child of the devil!

nephilimiyr said:

I claimed from the beginning that I sin. That yes every once in a while I make mistakes. I don't walk in darkness but when I do fall into it I pick myself back up and go to the Lord for forgiveness.

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Your doctrines are such that you teach surrender to sin, because you don't believer you can EVER defeat it. That is "bondage to sin." If you surrender and say "I can't stop sinning," you are "spots and blemishes," and you are "promising liberty when you yourself are a servant of sin!" ANYONE who teaches that we can't stop sinning is DENYING THE POWER OF GOD to enable them to walk HOLY!

Well did the scriptures describe this kind of "believer."

2 Timothy 3: 1-7
"1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, UNHOLY
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT ARE GOOD
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, LOVERS OF PLEASURES MORE THAN LOVERS OF GOD
5 HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts.
7 Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

nephilimiyr said:

You conveniently cut the verse off at the most important part! Here, I'll finish it for you. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

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I have said NUMEROUS TIMES that we DO SIN and that it would not say "if any man sin we have an advocate..." if believers did not sin. I have further continually spoken of the forgiveness we have of sins. I have NEVER ONCE said we don't have forgiveness! The fact that we have forgiveness IF we sin in NO WISE cancels out the fact that some day we can walk WITHOUT SIN, and be literally CLEANSED from that sin! By saying that this forgiveness is given because "we can never stop sinning" you are clearly saying that forgiveness is a "license to keep sinning." YOU CLAIM YOU HAVEN'T SAID THIS, BUT YOU SAY IT IN EVERY ARGUMENT YOU MAKE!

nephilimiyr said:

Now let me ask you a question. Why would John include that part you didn't want to include if it was possible for us to live sin free?

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And there it is, exactly what I've been talking about! You think that because I have an advocate with the father in case I sin, it's because "I can never stop sinning." The forgiveness is for "IF" I sin, this in no wise means I HAVE TO SIN! He's not saying "go ahead and sin, you've got an advocate with the Father!"

nephilimiyr said:

I mean even you yourself have been saying it's not good or wise for us to preach that it's not possible to live sin free because otherwise no one will believe it or strive for it. John here is saying exactly what you say we shouldn't preach!

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God did not give us forgiveness to remain in sin, "shall I continue in sin so that grace may abound, GOD FORBID!" God gave us forgiveness through Messiah's blood, and if I preach that we have forgiveness, I am NOT preaching that we should "strive for perfection but we'll never reach it." I'm saying we MUST strive for perfection, because the word says we WILL REACH IT." Only he who TRULY BELIEVES in this perfection and strives for it has this forgiveness described in 1 John 2. Evidently that leaves you out!!!! True faith doesn't just believe in the forgiveness, true faith believes in the power to cleanse, the power to heal, the power to make you "without spot or wrinkle."

nephilimiyr said:

Oh and what about verse 2, why are you ignoring that one?
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Seem like present tense to me...

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If this propitiation, described in this verse is for "all sins past present and future," as you say, well sir, then the WHOLE WORLD has this "forgiveness" of which you speak! The whole world is therefore going to heaven, no matter if they sin or not! NONSENSE!

nephilimiyr said:

ummm...except the you calling me friend part. Again if you don't consider me a friend don't lie to me or yourself. And I don't care if your being sarcastic either.

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I was thinking positive, and I was trying to think the best of you, and I was walking in hope that there was some form of like mindedness of the Holy Spirit in you. Evidently, that hope was in vain. Forgive me for being nice to you.

nephilimiyr said:

Because the first chapter of 1 John says that we all sin both in present and past tense.

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You can't find ONE VERSE, not ONE that says "past, present and future," that is a MAN MADE DOCTRINE that has it's roots in "eternal security" and "calvinism" both DOCTRINES FROM SATAN HIMSELF! You can't prove ANYTHING that you say from scripture. ."

nephilimiyr said:

Yes you got me again. I didn't explain myself very well here. It isn't so much a goal of our's to become perfect and without sin as you say but it should be our endeavor to always walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.

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You don't believe that either, for the scriptures say if you walk in the Spirit you WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH! In other words, if you walk in the spirit you are SINLESS! Therefore, endeavoring to walk in the Spirit, and endeavoring to live SINLESS and PERFECT are ONE IN THE SAME THING! You don't believe you can do either!

nephilimiyr said:

What is numbered in the hundreds are the scriptures that say Jesus is faith to forgive us our sins past or present tense.

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There isn't ONE scripture like that, NOT ONE! You haven't quoted any, and you haven't even LISTED them because they DON'T EXIST. Faith brings for RIGHTEOUSNESS otherwise it's DEAD! Faith is not just in "forgiveness," but our faith is in the POWER of GOD, and in the POWER OF HIS SON to CLEANSE US OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS not to just "forgive us our unrighteousness," we are delivered from the sin, and not just from the PENALTY of the sin!

nephilimiyr said:

Like you said if the goal of living a sin free life was attainable why would God stress in his book that he is faithful to forgive us our sins?

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Here you go again, concluding that God provided us forgiveness so that we could continue in sins!

nephilimiyr said:

I don't see any scripture stateing that we can attain a sin free life down here. Not one! I see srciptures saying that our life to come will be sin free...

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You don't see because you're eyes are blinded,

nephilimiyr said:

I see no where in that scripture that states or even hints that a sin free life down here is attainable. All this is is Peter telling us what to do to stop sin from reigning in us.

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Again, blind, and doubly blind!

I asked you how many sins constitutes "letting sin reign" and you said,

nephilimiyr said:

Only God can judge that.

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Shame on ME? You're the one that's saying "sin is ok as long as you don't make a habit of it!" Shame on you. When a priest molests a child, he can use your arguments to justify it. As long as he doesn't let that sin of child molesting "reign over him," according to you, he's ok! Furthermore, only God his is judge as to when he's had too many children!

All of you who hunger and thirst for righteousness, take heart, you shall be filled!
Turn to Messiah for your example, he was tempted in all ways, yet without sin! So, yes, I have met a man who has "ceased from sin!"

Have you?????????

We shall be like him!

nephilimiyr · Aug 6, 2003

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom you can't conduct yourself in anyway you want here. You have insulted me personally, belittled me, and most of all you have not only implied I'm not a christian but straight out said that I am not a believer.

nephilimiyr · Aug 6, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
I am no one, however, a man's faith is not determined by what he says "or writes," a man's faith is determined by his life, and in the case of ministers, by the fruits of his ministry. You can not determine if a man was a "believer" by what he says, have you never read "my people draw near me with their mouth and with their lips do honor me, but their fear toward me is taught by precept of men."

But you feel free to judge me by what I write and then say to me I'm not a believer, Hmmmmmm....very intertesting I must say.

Luchnia · Aug 6, 2003

Not only can a man stop sinning, he must stop sinning, or he will perish to eternal torments. However, we find that sin is quite often misunderstood and is equated with mistakes, thoughts, and such that are not sin at all.

Word up!

nephilimiyr · Aug 6, 2003

Luchnia said:
Not only can a man stop sinning, he must stop sinning, or he will perish to eternal torments. However, we find that sin is quite often misunderstood and is equated with mistakes, thoughts, and such that are not sin at all.

Word up!

And who do you know that is sinless Luchnia?

Luchnia · Aug 6, 2003

According to the Word of God, the child of God is, unless the Spirit lied to us, and I hardly think could be.

Word up!

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 6, 2003

Luchnia said:
According to the Word of God, the child of God is, unless the Spirit lied to us, and I hardly think could be.

Word up!

I agree with everything you've posted on this subject!

You are clearly a man (or woman) of God after God's own heart!

Let not those who "speak evil of dignities" such as "living without sin," sway you from the path.

I encourage you, and I congratulate you for being honest enough with God to admit that when you sin, you aren't being a "believer," but are in fact being a fraud.

Shalom

J. Dean

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 6, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom you can't conduct yourself in anyway you want here. You have insulted me personally, belittled me, and most of all you have not only implied I'm not a christian but straight out said that I am not a believer.

And my words stand! Report me to the moderators, and ask them to remove me, it matters little to me,
"They shall put you out of the synagogues..."

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 6, 2003

I wanted to say this before I get banned from the postings.

We are living in the days of the great apostasy! The very fact that the question, "can you stop sinning" is even being posed on a "Christian" forum is the greatest evidence of this. This should not even be a question, yet more and more it's becoming a question, and this is because "the love of many has waxed cold," and "iniquity abounds."

This apostasy was foreseen as far back as the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 7: 4- 11
"4 Trust not in lying words, saying, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, are these.
5 For if you thorougly amend your ways and your doings; if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor.
6 If you oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods, to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
8 Behold, you trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you know not:
10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?
11 Is this my house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, says Elohim."

Christians tout their "faith in their religious beliefs," before God in the same way that the Pharisees touted their status as descendants of Abraham! "We are Christian believers, we're not in bondage to anyone," and Messiah answers these new pharisees in the same way, "he who commits sin is a servant to sin."

Anyone who says "you can never stop sinning," is simply saying you are "in bondage" to sin for the rest of your life, and can never be free. They then say the only thing you are "free" of through Messiah, is the "penalty" for the sins you commit! Then have the audacity to deny they are teaching "license to sin!"

Yet Messiah said, "if the son of man set you free, you shall be free INDEED." The word INDEED is a compound word. In and deed! You will be free in your DEEDS! They are locked into sin "indeed" (so they say) and yet claim to be FREE, and at LIBERTY, and no servant of sin!

There is a judgment coming! I warn every man, and I teach every man as I am commanded. The time is short and God's patience is running out.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Shalom and farewell

J. Dean

nephilimiyr · Aug 6, 2003

Luchnia said:
According to the Word of God, the child of God is, unless the Spirit lied to us, and I hardly think could be.

Word up!

Do you know anyone personally who is totally free of sin and can sin no more, that is what I'm asking.

Also, if I may, you imply that thoughts are not sin and I agree to a certain point with this but what do you say Jesus was talking about then when he talked about committing adultery?

Matthew 5:28, But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. This tells me that one doesn't have to be committing a physical act to committ sin. This tells me that sin can also be committed in the heart.

nephilimiyr · Aug 6, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
And my words stand! Report me to the moderators, and ask them to remove me, it matters little to me, for you will only be acting as your father, the Devil has commanded.

"They shall put you out of the synagogues..."

May God have mercy on your soul!

I will pray for you I promise you that.

jayswife29 · Aug 6, 2003

Oh great nephilimiyr, now your'e a satan follower!!! I don't know anyone christian or not who is perfect, I don't know anyone who can stop sinning. If that were possible then Jesus would no longer play a role in our lives.If God knew man could achieve "God-hood" then the death of Jesus was nothing more than a joke and a sick one at that.WE are considered Holy, if we are spirit filled, we are saved if we have the Lord in our life, we are guilty of sin, thats why we need a savior. For the wages of sin is death. I don't remember any verse saying we are without sin, or will be without sin on this earth. I believe the only time we will be "sinless" is when we are in the presence of God, and until then our purpose should be to always glorify God (try to anyways) build each other up in a spiritual way and pray for the lost souls who need a savior.

Luchnia · Aug 7, 2003

Neph, read the verse you posted closely. It does not say in the head, but in the heart. How does lust get in the heart? When anything gets to the heart, or "midst" of someone it is done! As James says, "When lust is conceived..."

Jesus was careful to point this out. In 2 Cor 10:4-5 we can clearly see there is a time frame where thoughts can be brought down. And of course, the first chapter of James shows us how sin arrives.

You see a man can think with his head, but he can cast that thought to obey Christ and then if he will pace Phil 4:8 he will be on the right track.

Word up!

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 7, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
Do you know anyone personally who is totally free of sin and can sin no more, that is what I'm asking.

Also, if I may, you imply that thoughts are not sin and I agree to a certain point with this but what do you say Jesus was talking about then when he talked about committing adultery?

Matthew 5:28, But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. This tells me that one doesn't have to be committing a physical act to committ sin. This tells me that sin can also be committed in the heart.

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