Images

Thats a good question clskinner!
Glad you asked.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

This is the part I am wondering about. It seems that so many, even non-christians, are taking the cross and doing with it whatever they want.
This might be the reason why God did not want ANY graven images made. It kinda makes sense to me.
The cross was definatly not used as a symbol by any of the apostles or new testement churchs for a couple hundred years.
GEL

clskinner said:

GEL made a comment in another thread about God's command in the OT not to make images. What I'm wondering is how this command is reconciled with wearing or displaying a cross.

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I don't really like the idea... Never have.

The Bible gives an account of a God given ordinace to remember the work on the cross... lets use that one!!

The prohibition against "graven images" was about making "gods" to worship, not about making symbols or pictures. The cross we make is a symbol of Christ, whom we worship. We don't worship the cross, but the person who was crucified ON the cross. If all symbols and images were prohibited, we would be sinning right now, because writing is merely the graven image of sounds that we speak. As long as we don't worship writing, it is not wrong to make the symbols that we call letters.

But about the cross being mistused by people who don't know Him, that's our fault for not protecting the symbol, but allowing it to be used even in inappropriate contento movies without making an uproar.

lambslove said:

The prohibition against "graven images" was about making "gods" to worship, not about making symbols or pictures. The cross we make is a symbol of Christ, whom we worship. We don't worship the cross, but the person who was crucified ON the cross. If all symbols and images were prohibited, we would be sinning right now, because writing is merely the graven image of sounds that we speak. As long as we don't worship writing, it is not wrong to make the symbols that we call letters.

But about the cross being mistused by people who don't know Him, that's our fault for not protecting the symbol, but allowing it to be used even in inappropriate contento movies without making an uproar.

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As with anything else; this is just my personal opinion on the matter...

Barnes said:

Is like unto gold ... - All these things were used in making images or statues of the gods. It is absurd to think that the source of all life and intelligence resembles a lifeless block of wood or stone. Even degraded pagan, one would think, might see the force of an argument like this.

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I agree with Albert Barnes: It's absurd to think THE CREATOR which sits upon the circle of the earth, WHO sees us as mere grasshoppers, remotely resembles ANY image we have the ability to make.

I don't think cross necklaces are graven images that people can worship, but I don't agree with them either. It's all about marketing now and the cross necklace at one time could have been a symbol of someone's faith to show they were followers of Christ, but now all those necklaces do is help water down Christianity. Honestly now wearing a cross necklace is no different than wearing something like a Yin-Yang necklace. People have taken a symbol of sacrifice and milked it for all its worth.

My cousin will not leave the house with out his cross. I have seen ball players kiss the cross they have on their neck as if kissing the cross will bring them "luck" or a Blessing for the play.
This IMO, is worship. Because they believe that specific thing has some sorta power.
GEL

I'm going to go with @@Paul@@ on this one with a little embelishment.

The cross (if you wear one) is not a symbol of Christ, never was. The cross is a symbol of His sacrifice, a remembrance if you will. But it is just a piece of metal.

To answer the OPS question

To us a cross has no implied attributes. It is not holy, it is not sacred, it is nothing more than a reminder of Christ's death. I would say it is akin to carrying a picture of your child in your wallet... the picture has no real value it is merely ink, paper and chemicals. If something happens to the picture.. if someone rips it up or throws it in the sewer there is no offense (besides emotional towards the parent). That is the difference. I would wager that if someone took your personal rosary which has been blessed or something and chucked it in the sewer, you would perceive that as more than simply throwing away some plastic beads, chain, and a crucifix. To you (and this is an assumption) tossing a blessed rosary into the sewer would be a very serious matter. To me, if someone tossed a cross I was wearing (though I don't wear one) into the sewer, I would be upset that I had to buy a new one but that's it...

GreenEyedLady said:

My cousin will not leave the house with out his cross. I have seen ball players kiss the cross they have on their neck as if kissing the cross will bring them "luck" or a Blessing for the play.
This IMO, is worship. Because they believe that specific thing has some sorta power.
GEL

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I've seen the same thing on many occasions. In these cases the people are treating the objects like talismans (charms...etc). I agree that it is a form of worship.

clskinner said:

For example, using your rosary example, a blessed rosary should be broken before being discarded. If a non-blessed rosary was discarded without being broken, I would have no problem with it.


This is how I would feel about a non-blessed rosary. I'd be sad that I had to get a new one, and sad that a rosary was tossed into the sewer (I'd be similarly sad at the sight of a burning American flag), but would know that it is some beads, string, and a crucifix.

I sincerely thank you all for your responses.

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I just have one real quick question for you. I am wondering what the differance is between blessed rosary and non blessed rosary is. What does the blessing do?
GEL

If God has added "His" blessing... not "man's" blessing. Anyway, that's an unbiblical concept in either case. When God condemns the idea of taking a tree, carving it with our own hands, and then bowing before an image we created ourselves, He doesn't add "unless it's blessed".

Anyway, you might want to reread the latest from Rome. Whereas it used to be true that "blessed" Rosaries were of greater value in terms of indulgences (I got mine from the Vatican store, with the promise of a papal blessing), I believe that dogma has since been done away with (it's hard to keep up with the constant changes). I'll check on that.

In fact, I believe the CC now teaches that you don't even need the beads at all. And let's not forget the inherent problems with the Rosary and other "beads" for Baptists. I quoted one in the other thread, but here's another:

From ETWN (Beads for the Dead)

One begins and ends this chaplet with the De profundis or an Our Father and Hail Mary. On the large beads is made acts of faith, hope, and charity. On each small bead is said: "Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation." Each decade is concluded with: "Eternal rest grant unto them, etc."

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Just a note for Baptists to consider:

Just two of the 15 "Promises of Mary" for saying the Rosary:

*The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

* Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.

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That just scratches the surface. See Galatians 1:6-9.

As for me, I don't wear a cross.

I would like to ask for a point of clarification on your comment.

clskinner said:

I can see how you would say this GEL, but it's a bit of a touchy spot for me personally. I have many a time kissed a cross, not because I believe it will bring me good luck, but because it is my way of showing love, reverence, and submission to Christ while recognizing his sacrifice. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it can be hard to know a person's intention or belief simply by looking.

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To whom are you showing your love, reverence and submission?

There are two things I would like to add here.

1. What Christ is interested in is our heart and souls, things that can not been seen (except through actions that flow from the heart). Worship and submission to Christ is done first and primarly in the heart.

2. All things on earth are temporary (except souls) and we are not to focus on tempoary things but eternal things. Again the only thing of eteranal focus is souls not icons or possesions.

I agree that some misuse symbols like the cross and tread into the territory of worship and those should be warned against. Just like some worship nature or the stock market, or the internet. In and of themselves, these things are not wrong but they can be misused.

Gold Dragon said:

I agree that some misuse symbols like the cross and tread into the territory of worship and those should be warned against. Just like some worship nature or the stock market, or the internet. In and of themselves, these things are not wrong but they can be misused.

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I think this is a very good point.

I had a campus tract ministry a few years ago... as we were packing up, a student walked up and just stood over me as I stacked up the tracts... I asked him if he wanted a tract... he just asked me if I was "freaked out."

"By what?" I asked. He pointed to his jacket upon which he had a goat's head and a pentagram. I said, "Oh, I see you have a goat's head and a pentagram on your jacket. Why should I freak out?"

"They're symbols of Satan. Christians freak out when they see it." he said with glee.

"Really." I responded. "Not me. Last I checked my Bible, Satan doesn't have any symbols. If you want to give him some, he'll take them, but I don't give him anything." This began a great 45-minute discussion that ended with campus police accosting me... but that's a story for another day (For the record, the kid intervened to tell the rent-a-cops that we were just having a friendly discussion.)

Anywho, this is also how I feel about Halloween. If you wanna give Satan that day, he'll take it... but last I checked my Bible... well, you get the idea.

Moral of the story: Always check your Bible!

To Life Immortal

I hope it is ok that I post here; if not, let me know.

In my church, (Eastern Orthodox) we have icons. Icons are flat pictures of Lord Jesus, the Blessed Virgin, a saint or an event in the Church (Easter, Transfigution, etc.) There are no statues in any Orthodox church because of the commandment against graven images. When you enter an Orthodox church, you greet the icons. They are a mirror to the spirituality. I am called to be an icon of Christ as a Christian, to reflect Him in the way I live. Icons are respected for the same reasons a country's flag is: for what it represents.

We have crosses but no 3 dimensional crucifixes. I personally will not wear a crucifix; I think they are gross and I don't believe Lord Jesus is dead anyway. I will wear a three barred Orthodox cross. I wear an ankh now and when I was a Pagan, I wore a Thor's hammer mjolnir ( I was an Asatruar) and a pentagram. I wore those things for protection and to let others know that I was Pagan.

I agree with others here that the cross has been misused as cheap jewelry and as props in Hollywood pictures. That wouldn't or shouldn't stop anyone for wearing one. My motives for wearing cross is to let people know I'm Eastern Orthodox. People will know I'm Christian by my actions.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Vlinder ~*~

bleechers said:

I I responded. "Not me. Last I checked my Bible, Satan doesn't have any symbols. If you want to give him some, he'll take them, but I don't give him anything." This began a great 45-minute discussion that ended with campus police accosting me...

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I could TOTALLY picutre this with you bleechers~
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

If God has added "His" blessing... not "man's" blessing. Anyway, that's an unbiblical concept in either case. When God condemns the idea of taking a tree, carving it with our own hands, and then bowing before an image we created ourselves, He doesn't add "unless it's blessed".

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You know what I though of when clskinner talked about blessings. I thought about Solomons vessels/cups and things that were in the temple. I thought about how Big bad Nebe came in and trashed the place.
Here is the verse.


2 Kings 24:13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the LORD, as the LORD had said.
2 Kings 24:14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land.

I have to disagree with you bleechers when you said either case is an unbiblical concept. There were things that were concidered "holy" in the temple which I am sure that is where the RCC derived its concept of calling the cups that hold the wine "holy" and that which holds the bread "holy" etc.
I understand your point with a blessed rosary is unbiblical, I just don't want clskinner to get the wrong impression here.
I hope I have not confused things.
GEL

GEL, I don't have a problem with something being "holy" if God calls it "holy". But "we" can't make something holy by "blessing" it. And I was referring specifically to "images".

The reason I said that the concept is unbiblical in the church is because we are not given any instruction concerning anything being "holy" except God's word and God's priesthood (i.e. all true believers).

Thanks for letting me clarify. We are a "holy" priesthood because God says we are, however, since God never tells us that "crosses" are "holy" we cannot assume such. As for the vessels, they were constructed as a direct commandment of God. Israel did not just make stuff and then "bless" it to make it "holy".

Exodus 27
3 And thou shalt make [direct command of God] his pans to receive his ashes, and his shovels, and his basons, and his fleshhooks, and his firepans: all the vessels thereof thou shalt make of brass.

Exodus 40
9 And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it [direct command of God], and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.

Hope the distinction is clear

Moral of the story: Always check your Bible