God and the Republican National Convention

newlamb said:

Boy, you're reading jsn totally wrong. Why?

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No I am reading them totally correct. Another young zealot who has little comprehension of the faith outside of their narrow experience. I'll bet $1000 they are American and fundamentalist without even looking at their profile.

I'll bet $1000 they are American and fundamentalist without even looking at their profile.

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Good bet. Theologico-political humility has never been a hallmark of American fundamentalism.

burrow_owl said:

Good bet. Theologico-political humility has never been a hallmark of American fundamentalism.

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What is funny is the fact they are probably the least educated branch of Christianity too. Little experience outside of a cloistered view and little in the way of education to comprehend any other view.

Chi_Cygni said:

No I am reading them totally correct. Another young zealot who has little comprehension of the faith outside of their narrow experience. I'll bet $1000 they are American and fundamentalist without even looking at their profile.

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I resent being call a "fundy." Only Burrow_Owl can call me that . Let me ask you this: Why can't I live, say, and do the things that I believe in? I suspect that when you label someone a "fundamentalist," you are equating them to a Muslim terrorist.

Chi_Cygni said:

What is funny is the fact they are probably the least educated branch of Christianity too. Little experience outside of a cloistered view and little in the way of education to comprehend any other view.

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Least educated? Are you an expert on the subject? You didn't read your friend, Holly's, "judging" post.

You can say them and I can pass comment on them. Your view of the faith seems to be only those who agree with your Scriptural position are Christians. That is false. Heck you're just a kid anyway.

SuzQ said:

Hmmmm. God and the Republican party. Some of you say that you wish Republicans would quit trying to act like God "endorses" the party??? I can see where you are confused - you all have it backwards:

The Republican Party "endorses" GOD, not vice versa.

Sorry, but true, for the most part.

For those of you with "Christian" icons ONLY: (And some that even go as far as to call themselves "conservative", yet hate Bush/Republican party??). SOME of you are confused, some are anti-war (that's ok), but yet another group of you have much soul-searching to do, IMO. For those of you who fit this "conservative Christian" description, do you think it's a huge coincidence that born-again Christians filled with Jesus' Holy Spirit have NO doubt in their support of of a man like Bush? Do you think it's a huge coincidence that Michael W. Smith, Third Day, Jaci Velasquez, & born-again actor Stephen Baldwin automatically feel a kinship to Bush? The only "brainwashing" that we have is from the Holy Spirit!

Although "neutral" on U.S. Presidential endorsements, Nobel Peace Prize Nominee, Bono (from U2) has called this President the "most caring, compassionate, and committed President in U.S. history to the plight of global poverty & the AIDS epidemic". He's protesting the House cutting the $2 billion a "Christian" Bush proposed for 2005 to fight these epidemics in HALF (onecampaign.org). It's THIS kind of thing, not Bush, which makes the U.S. look even WORSE to the rest of the world with our stupid "Cribs", "The Fabulous Life of this Kerry Supporter", etc. (ie. Ben Affleck's million dollar Bentley & ugly million dollar pink diamond he gave to J.Lo, etc, etc).

To all others & athiests: The Republican Party believes in free enterprise (WITHOUT "flaunting" it) & everyone being encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions. It's good ole fashioned hardwork, family values, instilling morals, and pride for a job well done. The Democrats believe in blaming everyone & anyone from your childhood, bigger & bigger government taking control of your hard-earned money, & FORCING you to pay money for a LOT of people in this country who simply do NOT want to work. (Disabled & handicapped are a SMALL percentage on welfare & other assistance). My mother was a single mom with five children. She had a high- school education, some military experience, but otherwise no "breaks". She worked two jobs, raised five children who are all now successful with great educations, and at the same time participated in Army Reserve weekends for her country. Now, older in life, she worked for a cancer Hospice Program, drove Senior Citizens to their appts, etc, and currently helps my sister in caring for my autistic nephew (taking him to his therapists, etc) while my sister works.

So, now you can understand why I'm the same way as my wonderful, loving mother. She's a staunch Republican & so is my stepfather. It is by their example (and being saved by Christ 3.5 years ago) that I finally woke up & had a "blinder" lifted off about the ideals of this conservative party. This, after being a pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, liberal Dem for most of my younger adult life! My family laughs at me sometimes, but we all need to grow and learn. Don't let the MEDIA do it for you, folks.

Again, God does not "praise" the Republicans, they "praise" and HONOR God.

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Wow.

Chi_Cygni said:

You can say them and I can pass comment on them. Your view of the faith seems to be only those who agree with your Scriptural position are Christians. That is false. Heck you're just a kid anyway.

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That's what Christians do. They share scriptures and the Word of God. It's o.k. to have differences and as long as it is scripturely based, noone's going to attack you. Well, that's proven false ealier. There goes my point.

Let's have another definition of Republican:

Someone terrified there might be other folks having fun.

OR:

We want the government out of the peoples lives unless we are in power and we then want to be in your bedroom checking things out.

newlamb said:

SuzQ -

What an awesome post.

And JSN - I'm with you all the way. You have a heart for Jesus. I too will follow him wherever he's going; fortunately because of the Bible we will know him when he arrives on earth and will know what he's going to do and where he's going!

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Although "neutral" on U.S. Presidential endorsements, Nobel Peace Prize Nominee, Bono (from U2) has called this President the "most caring, compassionate, and committed President in U.S. history to the plight of global poverty & the AIDS epidemic". He's protesting the House cutting the $2 billion a "Christian" Bush proposed for 2005 to fight these epidemics in HALF (onecampaign.org). It's THIS kind of thing, not Bush, which makes the U.S. look even WORSE to the rest of the world with our stupid "Cribs", "The Fabulous Life of this Kerry Supporter", etc. (ie. Ben Affleck's million dollar Bentley & ugly million dollar pink diamond he gave to J.Lo, etc, etc).

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I felt this portion of the article was quite shallow. Bono has praised the President at times for his involvement with AIDS in Africa, but this is largely in part of the fact that the current administration has listened to him. As far as I'm concerned, and likely Bono as well, a Democratic administration would be far more suited to his aims.

Bono is protesting a REPUBLICAN HOUSE cutting the $2 billion that Bush proposed for 2005.

Law of Loud said:

I felt this portion of the article was quite shallow. Bono has praised the President at times for his involvement with AIDS in Africa, but this is largely in part of the fact that the current administration has listened to him. As far as I'm concerned, and likely Bono as well, a Democratic administration would be far more suited to his aims.

Bono is protesting a REPUBLICAN HOUSE cutting the $2 billion that Bush proposed for 2005.

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LOL! This post is so funny! Sorry sweetie, but your post is pure fallacy:

#1. Bono protested the House vote ON CAMERA at the DEMOCRATIC NAT'L CONVENTION (even though he doesn't support any parties, etc). Although a handful of Repubs voted against it, it was overwhelmingly Democrats that slashed the funds for world relief.
#2. Here's the article from Bono's own DATA website: data.org
#3. Read and weep (if you must), but Bono supports PRESIDENT BUSH's initiative, because Bush didn't just turn down Bono when they couldn't agree on a number a few years back. He later ACTED after hearing Bono out. This is something the President is known for: not just "talking the talk" - but "WALKING THE WALK". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2704889.stm

"U2 frontman Bono has welcomed US President George Bush's decision to spend more on Aids prevention in Africa and the Caribbean.
The US leader is to increase the country's Emergency Plan for Aids Relief budget by $10 billion (£6.28bn) to $15 billion (£9.43bn) over the next five years.

President Bush said on Tuesday the budget would help prevent seven million new infections. "If we can turn the president's bold long term vision into near term results we're excited," Bono said in a statement. "Any delay in increased funding means more lives lost and an even bigger cheque in the future."

Bono was working with Nelson Mandela on an Aids benefit concert
The singer says the US needs to spend $2.5bn (£1.5bn) out of this year's budget to help tackle the Aids crisis. He said Europe must also match the US contribution. But he said the American donation was a big step in the right direction.

"The president's emphasis upon anti-retroviral treatment represents a true paradigm shift and is to be wholly welcomed," he said.

Some other interesting quotes to chew on:

"Bono called the President's announcement "a significant step," adding that "there were people who told me a Republican president would never do anything like this." Bono told NBC News that Bush "made a promise to me that if we can prove these aid programs work, funding will not be a problem." Washington Post 5/2/02

"He hailed President Bush for proposing an unprecedented $15 billion, five- year plan to fight the global AIDS crisis". source: CNN 12/4/03

Let's move on now, shall we??

SuzQ Let me get the nicities out the way first

SuzQ said:

Hmmmm. God and the Republican party. Some of you say that you wish Republicans would quit trying to act like God "endorses" the party??? I can see where you are confused - you all have it backwards:

The Republican Party "endorses" GOD, not vice versa.

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Yes some of the party to embrace God but there are many and they are the most vocal who proclaim exactly this that the GOP is the party of True christians and God. And elanor raised a good point it seems to me that this very vocal group must be aliennating someof its' membership with that rhetoric.

For those of you with "Christian" icons ONLY: (And some that even go as far as to call themselves "conservative", yet hate Bush/Republican party??). SOME of you are confused, some are anti-war (that's ok), but yet another group of you have much soul-searching to do, IMO. For those of you who fit this "conservative Christian" description, do you think it's a huge coincidence that born-again Christians filled with Jesus' Holy Spirit have NO doubt in their support of of a man like Bush? Do you think it's a huge coincidence that Michael W. Smith, Third Day, Jaci Velasquez, & born-again actor Stephen Baldwin automatically feel a kinship to Bush? The only "brainwashing" that we have is from the Holy Spirit!

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See you fall right into that same rhetoric right in the next paragraph. You seem to be applying that the born again Christians of the Republican party are filled with the Holy Spirit, and others are not or can not be filled with that same spirit if they are a Democrat.




To all others & athiests: The Republican Party believes in free enterprise (WITHOUT "flaunting" it) & everyone being encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions. It's good ole fashioned hardwork, family values, instilling morals, and pride for a job well done.

The Democrats believe in blaming everyone & anyone from your childhood,

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Do you really believe that Democrats believe this, who believes this better yet where do people get these ideas from.

bigger & bigger government

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Geroge Bush has done nothing to reduce the size of the Federal goverment, nothing he has done the exact opposite.

taking control of your hard-earned money, & FORCING you to pay money for a LOT of people in this country who simply do NOT want to work. (Disabled & handicapped are a SMALL percentage on welfare & other assistance).

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Let me ask you as I asked another poster and I really hope you give me a better answer. Of the 34 million people in this country living at or below the poverty level how many do you think simply do not want work. How many want to live in government susidised housing in crime infested neighborhoods, with drugs and gangs becuase they are living so high on the hog from government handouts.

My mother was a single mom with five children. She had a high- school education, some military experience, but otherwise no "breaks". She worked two jobs, raised five children who are all now successful with great educations, and at the same time participated in Army Reserve weekends for her country. Now, older in life, she worked for a cancer Hospice Program, drove Senior Citizens to their appts, etc, and currently helps my sister in caring for my autistic nephew (taking him to his therapists, etc) while my sister works.

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Kudos to your Mom.

Again, God does not "praise" the Republicans, they "praise" and HONOR God.

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Again with the rhetoric which seems to imply that Democrats do not.

The major probelm is that a very vocal part of the GOP does claim to have a direct line with God and that He endorsed the GOP and President Bush.

mhatten said:

SuzQ Let me get the nicities out the way first

Yes some of the party to embrace God but there are many and they are the most vocal who proclaim exactly this that the GOP is the party of True christians and God. And elanor raised a good point it seems to me that this very vocal group must be aliennating someof its' membership with that rhetoric.

See you fall right into that same rhetoric right in the next paragraph. You seem to be applying that the born again Christians of the Republican party are filled with the Holy Spirit, and others are not or can not be filled with that same spirit if they are a Democrat.

To all others & athiests: The Republican Party believes in free enterprise (WITHOUT "flaunting" it) & everyone being encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions. It's good ole fashioned hardwork, family values, instilling morals, and pride for a job well done.

Do you really believe that Democrats believe this, who believes this better yet where do people get these ideas from.

Geroge Bush has done nothing to reduce the size of the Federal goverment, nothing he has done the exact opposite.

Let me ask you as I asked another poster and I really hope you give me a better answer. Of the 34 million people in this country living at or below the poverty level how many do you think simply do not want work. How many want to live in government susidised housing in crime infested neighborhoods, with drugs and gangs becuase they are living so high on the hog from government handouts.

Kudos to your Mom.

Again with the rhetoric which seems to imply that Democrats do not.

The major probelm is that a very vocal part of the GOP does claim to have a direct line with God and that He endorsed the GOP and President Bush.

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First of all, I understand & respect your point of view, even if we don't agree. Just as I'm guilty of lumping all Democrats into one pile of "unsaved souls" (which I apologize for if that's how my post came off - not my intention), you are just as guilty as lumping all GOP'ers in one convenient "neo-con" pile. I don't think the Republican Party is alienating too many folks with any talk (of which there is very, very little from any elected officials in the media) of Judeo-Christianity, as that is the overwhelming majority of this country & what all of the founders were. Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus did NOT form this country. They know we still love & embrace them, so I don't see where too many religious folk of other faiths are offended enough to leave the Republican party & embrace the "liberal", non-religious side of the Democrats. You also must not have seen Zainab Al-Suwaij, Executive Director of the American Islamic Congress endorse Bush at the convention on Monday night. Here's an excerpt:

"Thank you for your kind welcome. From my heart, I offer you the traditional Muslim greeting: As Salam Alaikum-- Peace be upon you. I am honored to stand here tonight. When I came to the United States from Iraq 12 years ago, I would never have imagined myself speaking to a group like this.

Living under Saddam Hussein, we could not gather as we do now to discuss things like democracy and freedom. We could only dream of a day when we could speak freely, and worship God in ways of our own choosing".

Believe me, I used to BE a vocal Democrat & I understand the noble, "good intentions" that go along with that. Let's make everyone spread their wealth equally (rather than leaving it up to God to judge when someone doesn't share their riches), let's allow the ACLU and others to interpret a VERY religious group of forefather's writings (Constitution, etc) to mean that the only way we can live peacefully is in a GODLESS country, etc. This will create a pure "utopian society", etc, etc. Free speech should include inappropriate content, as it doesn't "harm" anyone. (Which is contradictory to Christ's own teachings at His Sermon on the Mount that a man who looks at another woman with lust has committed adultery in his heart, for example). I'm sorry, but a lot of the the liberal issues that fall under the Democratic umbrella are very, very anti-Biblical, period. They DO promote a sense of not having to repent for any sins you've committed, because the "interpretation" of the sin is up for debate??? (Again, VERY contradictory to Christ's teachings to REPENT, REPENT, REPENT). Of course, killing innocent with being pro-abortion/pro-stem cell research on HUMAN embryos/pro-euthanasia on God's children, no matter how sick, in a coma, or whatnot. Don't get me wrong, I also have a hard time with capital punishment as well, but I've learned it's very, very difficult for a Governor in a state that has the death penalty (Bush AND Clinton) to halt a sentence that was AGREED upon by a jury. Also, many wars WERE waged throughout the Bible with God's blessings, because the cause was for the greater good & peace of His people.

You can go ahead and argue all you want about "one person's interpretation of the Bible", because a lot of the OT looks silly & shouldn't be interpreted literally. (sometimes I agree with some of that myself. LOL!). However, in the end, most of what devout Christians argue about God's Laws are true.

I also need to see for myself a quote from a high-profile Republican where someone has said that God "endorses the GOP and President Bush". What's happened is that when it's learned (through books like "The Faith of George W. Bush") that the President turns to God first with prayer before any decisions (small OR large), it gets turned around that he claims God tells him to do things. No, George W. Bush has an idea of what's right for the country, and prays on it. Likewise, the party endorses God & he is the ultimate "government" we must answer to, not vice versa.

Anywho, I hoped I've explained myself a little further & I do appreciate your kind comments & "CIVIL" debate, unlike others you & I see every day on these threads.

SuzQ said:

Believe me, I used to BE a vocal Democrat & I understand the noble, "good intentions" that go along with that. Let's make everyone spread their wealth equally (rather than leaving it up to God to judge when someone doesn't share their riches), let's allow the ACLU and others to interpret a VERY religious group of forefather's writings (Constitution, etc) to mean that the only way we can live peacefully is in a GODLESS country, etc. This will create a pure "utopian society", etc, etc. Free speech should include inappropriate content, as it doesn't "harm" anyone. (Which is contradictory to Christ's own teachings at His Sermon on the Mount that a man who looks at another woman with lust has committed adultery in his heart, for example). I'm sorry, but a lot of the the liberal issues that fall under the Democratic umbrella are very, very anti-Biblical, period. They DO promote a sense of not having to repent for any sins you've committed, because the "interpretation" of the sin is up for debate??? (Again, VERY contradictory to Christ's teachings to REPENT, REPENT, REPENT). Of course, killing innocent with being pro-abortion/pro-stem cell research on HUMAN embryos/pro-euthanasia on God's children, no matter how sick, in a coma, or whatnot. Don't get me wrong, I also have a hard time with capital punishment as well, but I've learned it's very, very difficult for a Governor in a state that has the death penalty (Bush AND Clinton) to halt a sentence that was AGREED upon by a jury. Also, many wars WERE waged throughout the Bible with God's blessings, because the cause was for the greater good & peace of His people.

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well put

ok...so what do you think of current Republicans' tactics now?
The Purple Heart bandaid?
The smear campaign against Kerry?


How Christian and loving is that?

I like debating with you for that very reason it is always civil and a times we have agreed

SuzQ said:

you are just as guilty as lumping all GOP'ers in one convenient "neo-con" pile.

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/me jumps up and down saying no I am not no I am not

Seriously I didn't call anyone and don't think I have since I have been posting on this forum a neo-conservative. I also don't think I lumped everyone, I believe I said some but that they are the most vocal.

I don't think the Republican Party is alienating too many folks with any talk (of which there is very, very little from any elected officials in the media) of Judeo-Christianity, as that is the overwhelming majority of this country & what all of the founders were. Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus did NOT form this country. They know we still love & embrace them, so I don't see where too many religious folk of other faiths are offended enough to leave the Republican party & embrace the "liberal", non-religious side of the Democrats.

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I am not sure either but I do thin kit was an interesting point that elanor brought up.

You also must not have seen Zainab Al-Suwaij, Executive Director of the American Islamic Congress endorse Bush at the convention on Monday night. Here's an excerpt:

"Thank you for your kind welcome. From my heart, I offer you the traditional Muslim greeting: As Salam Alaikum-- Peace be upon you. I am honored to stand here tonight. When I came to the United States from Iraq 12 years ago, I would never have imagined myself speaking to a group like this.

Living under Saddam Hussein, we could not gather as we do now to discuss things like democracy and freedom. We could only dream of a day when we could speak freely, and worship God in ways of our own choosing".

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No I did not see him but I did see Elizabeth Dole whose speech I found to be IMHO alienanting and boring.

Believe me, I used to BE a vocal Democrat & I understand the noble, "good intentions" that go along with that. Let's make everyone spread their wealth equally (rather than leaving it up to God to judge when someone doesn't share their riches),

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Let me only speak for myself and democrats i know and converse with on these issues. I don't know a single Democrat who thinks that people should spread their wealth equally. Not one.

Now as far as leaving it up to God, well that is a nice ideal but in praactice if the US gov't was to all but abandon solcial programs I have serious doubts that the wealthy and the others more fortunate would step upto the plate to care for (and you can define care for in whatever terms you like) the 34 million people in poverty in this nation.

let's allow the ACLU and others to interpret a VERY religious group of forefather's writings (Constitution, etc) to mean that the only way we can live peacefully is in a GODLESS country,

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the ACLU does not interpet the consittuition. That is done by the judges they only bring cases that they feel violate the constituion be they pro- religious issue or not. I am not sure what you really mean by living in a Godless country, do you think that none of the people who work for the ACLU are Christian or of whatever religion.

etc. This will create a pure "utopian society", etc, etc.

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These are not democratic ideas

Free speech should include inappropriate content, as it doesn't "harm" anyone. (Which is contradictory to Christ's own teachings at His Sermon on the Mount that a man who looks at another woman with lust has committed adultery in his heart, for example). I'm sorry, but a lot of the the liberal issues that fall under the Democratic umbrella are very, very anti-Biblical, period.

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Personally I am against inappropriate contentography. Do I think that it should be against the law in any form no because of two reaosns you can not legislate morality and there is the issue of free speech between consenting adults.

They DO promote a sense of not having to repent for any sins you've committed, because the "interpretation" of the sin is up for debate??? (Again, VERY contradictory to Christ's teachings to REPENT, REPENT, REPENT).

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Please expalin how the democratic platform does this?

Of course, killing innocent with being pro-abortion/pro-stem cell research on HUMAN embryos/pro-euthanasia on God's children, no matter how sick, in a coma, or whatnot. [Don't get me wrong, I also have a hard time with capital punishment as well, but I've learned it's very, very difficult for a Governor in a state that has the death penalty (Bush AND Clinton) to halt a sentence that was AGREED upon by a jury

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well I am against abortion and don't know enough about the issue of stem cell research to comment. I don't think anyone is really pro-abortion, that is an unfair assesment.

I am also against capital punishment.

. Also, many wars WERE waged throughout the Bible with God's blessings, because the cause was for the greater good & peace of His people.

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We are not living in OT times and I am not sure how you apply the greater good and peace of of "His" people to the face of America today. that is another idea I see promoted by many conservatives and Repulicans that Ameirca is somehow special in God's eyes.

You can go ahead and argue all you want about "one person's interpretation of the Bible", because a lot of the OT looks silly & shouldn't be interpreted literally. (sometimes I agree with some of that myself. LOL!). However, in the end, most of what devout Christians argue about God's Laws are true.

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See ther it is again I am a devout christian democrat and I am absolutley positive I am not alone.

I also need to see for myself a quote from a high-profile Republican where someone has said that God "endorses the GOP and President Bush".

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This comes pretty close in my eyes

elizabeth dole said:

Two thousand years ago a man said, " I have come to give life and to give it in full." In America I have the freedom to call that man Lord, and I do. In the United States of America we are free to worship without discrimination, without intervention and even without activist judges trying to strip the name of God from the Pledge of Allegiance; from the money in our pockets; and from the walls of our courthouses. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. The right to worship God isn't something Republicans invented, but it is something Republicans will defend.

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parts of the texas repub party platform said:

Religion and Secular Humanism – The Party affirms President Lincoln’s quote: “It is the duty of nations, as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God and to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.”

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What's happened is that when it's learned (through books like "The Faith of George W. Bush") that the President turns to God first with prayer before any decisions (small OR large), it gets turned around that he claims God tells him to do things. No, George W. Bush has an idea of what's right for the country, and prays on it. Likewise, the party endorses God & he is the ultimate "government" we must answer to, not vice versa.

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Well I haven't read that book and he did get on natioanl tv and say God told him to strike at Sadaam.

Anywho, I hoped I've explained myself a little further & I do appreciate your kind comments & "CIVIL" debate, unlike others you & I see every day on these threads.

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Yes you have expalined yourself , you are worng but that is okay too.


Why is it so hard of rpeople ot be civil?

mhatten said:

No I did not see him

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It was a "her" The head of the Islamic Congress is a she.

mhatten said:

Well I haven't read that book and he did get on natioanl tv and say God told him to strike at Sadaam.

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Huh? Source & actual quote, please and thank you. Again, praying for a decision and feeling like being "led" to go with it is NOT the same as God telling me to start a war. He rarely interferes with our "free will" thing, unless it is paramount to Him and His will, as in the Bible???

mhatten said:

Yes you have expalined yourself , you are worng but that is okay too.

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LOl! Oh, sweetie, you know I got nuttin' but love for ya!!

mhatten said:

Why is it so hard of rpeople ot be civil

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It's the sign of the times, unfortunately. Many have attacked Bush in such cold, calculating ways. Not necessary to get your point across - there's ways to vocalize your opinion without personal attacks on other human beings. (Bush is a cocaine-sniffing, murdering alcoholic, Kerry is a Vietnam, vietcong-killing traitor, etc). Everyone is guilty at some point.

To be fair to you, I did feel Zell Miller was a tad over the top last night about the Dems. This after McCain reminded us on Monday that we need to be "friends" with the Dems, even if we don't agree, as well as Schwarzenegger saying we can all disagree with whatever parts of our party we want, as it's welcomed.

It's just that the Democrats are wrong about John Kerry himself being qualified & ready to take the reins from Bush.

SuzQ said:

snip

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Hey you never answered my question about how many people do you think living at or below the poverty line are l"lazy welfare bums" not your words but the one you here most often.