Are we grafted in or not?

just to give you some insight into Judaism's view.

Judaism has the same term "grafted in"...and for a gentile to be grafted in to Yisrael, they must be converted- thus they will be a part of Yisrael....they are also grafted in, per se when they have not yet been converted and are dedicated to be converted...
such an example is a noachite.

but thats judaism.

Jill,

First I think we need to help you undersand faith. You said:

. . . since salvation has always been available to them, by faith. Faith in what? In G-d's existence?

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What you are hinting at shows that you consider faith "what one blieves" what we would call creed. The faith God is speaking of is tied to "action, doing, living." Christianity is easy believism where Judaism including Messianic Judaism, and all related, is be-ism. We are not judged for salvation according to what we believe in our heart, we are judged according to how we have lived. Torah tells us how we should live, and we respond by living that way which makes us obedient to Gods will expressed in his Law. The Apostle James makes this clear when he says, "I will show you my faith, by my works." And Yeshua shows us the actual judgment fothe last days in Matt 25, the sheep and the Goats, who are judged for how they treated, "the least of these my brethern."

The only meaningful way to express faith in and obedeince to God is by doing what he says, or in esscence allowing him to be God and Lord in you life. As you say, even Satan believes in God. But knowing does not save.

Gentiles in the these days in the western world are mostly Christian. But in Paul's day Gentiles were mostly Pagan. So as their faith was turned toward God,(the God of Abraham) they ceased from doing Pagan things, and became obedient to God, through physical acts as well as the love in their hearts. So Paul says that the Gentiles, who have not the law,(had not been converted through circumcision, and training in Toah ect.) become a law unto themselves, how so?; because by their new lives they demonstrated the word of God in their hearts acted out through tangible acts of kindness and holy living,causing them to be doing the same things they would have been doing, had they studied the Torah during conversion.They were doing what the laws calls for charity, kindness, helping, loving, living holy and righteously.

Also God made a distinct choice concerning Gentiles demonstrated by his pouring out the holy spirit on them, even without conversion and circumcision first. The church of the apostles agreed with this and decided that only the four things needed to be done, (these are similar to the noachide laws, but are not the noachide laws in total) in order to prove their repentence from Paganism. These four restrictions are direcly related to Pagan worship of those days. This needed to be done so that the Gentiles could enter into fellowship with the Jews and study the scriptures in the only place that they were to be found, the synagogues of their own towns.

I would recommend that you read the book of Romans again, keeping in mind that Paul is speaking to Gentiles and perhaps some jewish blievers in Yeshua who had taken liberty in Christ and gone too far with their freedoms, such that they were becoming an offense to the Jews in their towns and in the synagogue; to such an extent that they were in danger of driving the Jews away from the Gospel. If these brothers did not learn to control themselves, and continued with the idea that grace made them free from the law, (outside of the 4 restrictions) that all of Israel would reject the Gospel and Yeshua. Pauls worst fear is expressed here. And unfortuanately it came true. Paul points out to them in 10:4 that the laws purpose, the target at which it points is faith in Messiah. He also says that the man who is carnal can not please god, becasue his mind is not in subject to the law of God. (we can make this clearer by reversing it's language: the spiritual man does please God and is not enmity against God, because his mind IS in subjection to the law of God.) Ro 8

If you have questions, we will talk some more. I suspet that you will. You can also email or PM me.

Charles

sojeru said:

just to give you some insight into Judaism's view.

Judaism has the same term "grafted in"...and for a gentile to be grafted in to Yisrael, they must be converted- thus they will be a part of Yisrael....they are also grafted in, per se when they have not yet been converted and are dedicated to be converted...
such an example is a noachite.

but thats judaism.

Click to expand...

What you say here is correct according to Rabbinical Judaism of the 2nd temple period. The Torah itself makes it clear that Israel is to welcome, and love the Gentiles who live in their midst and to treat them as brothers and to accord to them the same protections and provisons given to all of Israel under the law. He was even allowed to worship God as far as the court of the Gentiles. Circumcision was required to take part in the passover.

Num 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

One God, One Messiah, One law, One people of God, Israel!

The thing that got Paul in trouble so often in his days was not the Gospel. A great number of the Jews of his day accepted that Yeshua was Messiah (meaning no offence here) but the Gentile inclusion without conversion, that was another story. For this they wanted to kill Paul. It is interesting the read in several places, where Paul is preaching the Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah in the synagogue to the Jewish brothers,and everything is going fine and they say,"stay on with us and tell us more. We accept what you are saying is true.", until he comes to the part that God was also calling in the Gentiles to be a part of his people and doing so without rabinnical conversion, then they start yelling and throwing rocks and demand that he be killed.

The longer you are grafted in the more the fruit shall reflect the grafting. MAy you bloom and grow closer to Yeshua in a personal way that neither words or text from another tumble the foundation that you have with Yeshua. Keep on in the spiritual path that Yeshua has shown you, it is narrow and will get narrower as the last hour's of earth's history draw closer. May you be blessed with an inner strength that only Yeshua can give you for the boming trials and may no one take your place in the spot God has grafted you in to His olive tree.

sojeru said:

they are also grafted in, per se when they have not yet been converted and are dedicated to be converted...
such an example is a noachite.

but thats judaism.

Click to expand...

As a Jew, I've never heard this, i.e. that they are grafted in by a desire to convert. Converts to Judaism are grafted in, but a noachide is not someone who is dedicated to converting. In fact, they may have no intent whatsoever.

In addition, per the Ramchal, "In the world to come, however, there will be no nation other than Israel. The souls of righteous gentiles [noachides by implication] will be allowed to exist in the future word, but only as an addition and attachment to Israel."

CharlesYTK said:

worship God as far as the court of the Gentiles. Circumcision was required to take part in the passover.

Num 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

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Yes, so the gentile had to convert to participate in some Jewish rituals. In fact, my english translation says:

For the congregation - the same decree shall be for you and for the proselyte [convert for those who don't know] who sojourns, an eternal decree for your generations; like you like the proselyte shall it be before Hashem. One teaching and one judgment shall be for you and for the proselyte who sojourns among you.

chanahs said:

Yes, so the gentile had to convert to participate in some Jewish rituals. In fact, my english translation says:

For the congregation - the same decree shall be for you and for the proselyte [convert for those who don't know] who sojourns, an eternal decree for your generations; like you like the proselyte shall it be before Hashem. One teaching and one judgment shall be for you and for the proselyte who sojourns among you.

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What ENGLISH translation is that? Proslyte? This would mean someone in the process of conversion. That is not the word used in this or in Parallel texts. They use Ger:

1616​

ger { gare} or (fully) geyr (gare)
​

1b) of foreigners in Israel, though conceded rights


Nu 9:
14And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

For Reference:

LEV 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. [34] But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.



ISA 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.


ISA 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. [2] For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. [3] And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. [4] Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. [5] Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

CharlesYTK said:

What ENGLISH translation is that? Proslyte? This would mean someone in the process of conversion. That is not the word used in this or in Parallel texts. They use Ger:

1616​

ger { gare} or (fully)geyr (gare)​

​

​

from 1481; TWOT - 330a; n m​

​

AV - stranger 87, alien 1, sojourner 1, stranger + 376 1, stranger + 4480 1, strangers + 582 1; 92​

​

GK - 1731 { rG«​

1) sojourner


​

1a) a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights​

1b) of foreigners in Israel, though conceded rights

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It is the artscroll translation. A Jewish translation. You are using Strong's. And this is where the problem comes in. In Judaism, there are two types of gerim: a ger toshav and a ger tzedek. A ger toshav is a stranger who lives in the land of Israel, accepts Jewish civil rule, and keeps the noachide laws. A ger tzedek is a stranger who has converted to Judaism. Then there is the occassional use of ger as just a stranger. We know through context and tradition which ger is being referred to. In all of the verses mentioned, including the Num 9 one, these are 'ger tzedek', converts or proselytes. And so a good English translation will make note of that as the Artscroll does.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Great Joy unto all the brethren.......the conversion of the gentiles should be the same for us also.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Just a certain sect of the Pharisees were the ones with the contention regarding these gentile conversions. Let us not follow in the same foot steps.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter explained that by the Holy Spirit upon them purifying their hearts by faith, through the belief that through the grace of God we are saved.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Simeon by inspiration declared that out of the gentiles will be taken a people for HIS NAME. Also declaring that this agrees with the words of the prophets as it is written.

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

That to me is the time of the gentiles to be fulfilled, bcause then the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David will be built again and it will be set-up as prophecied here.

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

In every city, those that preach Yeshua will have the teachings read in the synagogues to them every sabbath day. They will learn more than the four basic decribed here. Since even the apostles discribe the tradtions of men which he called a yoke was too much for even them to follow.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. 33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. 34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. 35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also. 36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do. 37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. 38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. 39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; 40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

chanahs said:

It is the artscroll translation. A Jewish translation. You are using Strong's. And this is where the problem comes in. In Judaism, there are two types of gerim: a ger toshav and a ger tzedek. A ger toshav is a stranger who lives in the land of Israel, accepts Jewish civil rule, and keeps the noachide laws. A ger tzedek is a stranger who has converted to Judaism. Then there is the occassional use of ger as just a stranger. We know through context and tradition which ger is being referred to. In all of the verses mentioned, including the Num 9 one, these are 'ger tzedek', converts or proselytes. And so a good English translation will make note of that as the Artscroll does.

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Sorry I didn't realize that I was using a BAD translation. I have four in Hebrew, The Soncino from the Chief Rabbi to the British Empire Dr. J.H. Hertz, the interlinear translated from the Masoretic text, Torah, by the Jewish Pulication Society, and the Tanakh JPS modern translation from the "Traditional text". The Modern is the only one that even comes close to implying any special status for these aliens, in that it says "who sojournes with you", implying some permanent staus but not specifying what that is.

Since the Noachide laws is a Talmudic late 2nd temple ruling, I suspect that this is not what Moshe had in mind, or what was in practice at the time.

Setting all this aside for a moment then, I gather that you are saying that Gentiles need first to convert to Judaism to beome part of the family of faithful followers, OR as an alternative follow the Noachide rabbinical traditions and remain separated and distant from Gods family. This would help to preserve Jewish exclusivity and Keep Gentiles in a secondary position.

Hi Charles,

just wanted to highlight on some information- to expound on something you said:
you said-

The thing that got Paul in trouble so often in his days was not the Gospel. A great number of the Jews of his day accepted that Yeshua was Messiah (meaning no offence here) but the Gentile inclusion without conversion, that was another story. For this they wanted to kill Paul. It is interesting the read in several places, where Paul is preaching the Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah in the synagogue to the Jewish brothers,and everything is going fine and they say,"stay on with us and tell us more. We accept what you are saying is true.", until he comes to the part that God was also calling in the Gentiles to be a part of his people and doing so without rabinnical conversion, then they start yelling and throwing rocks and demand that he be killed.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeshuah was accepted amoungst all the Rabbis of that time as a Rabbi (from amoungst the pharisees and their elite- a pharisaic group known as the Hassidim of which Yeshuah was a part of).
As you can see, I have no quarrel with Yeshuah.
And thus, see him as a good man, a Rabbi, a master of Jewish Law according to Rabbinical Judaism- that is what he taught. He was a Tanna.

and concerning the latter part of your comments on the such of Paul, I partially see your point- but disagree.
we can speak about this subject in another section of the forums if you'd like as to not break the rules here.

shalom u'brachot,
Antonio

Hi Charles,
you also said:
Since the Noachide laws is a Talmudic late 2nd temple ruling, I suspect that this is not what Moshe had in mind, or what was in practice at the time.

I also have a problem recieving this as true- even the christian "NT" shows otherwise.
again, if you wish to have a talk about this- somewhere else, Im just pointing out things I do not agree with.

you also said:
Setting all this aside for a moment then, I gather that you are saying that Gentiles need first to convert to Judaism to beome part of the family of faithful followers, OR as an alternative follow the Noachide rabbinical traditions and remain separated and distant from Gods family.

I will actually give you an answer just to clarify the ill view that you have what it is being a Noachite.
EVERY Noachite begins as a Ger Toshab (a stranger who turned [repented]) and he MAY or MAY not have a place in the world to come- he MUST work at his salvation.
Salvation is a free desire (gift) from G-D, however, one MUST work at it in order for it to endure.
this is why i say this.
The first likhot (set of tablets of the decalogue) did not endure?
they were broken, why?
YET, the second likhot endured forever! Why?

see the first were made by G-D and G-D alone- and what man does not take part in - in which what was made was for him, it does not endure- thus it is destroyed.
and that which man does partake in with G-D's gifts and creations- they do endure and return back to way in which they first appeared.
The same it is with salvation.

and thus, the Ger Toshab that engages in such work- as he is a Toshab (one who turns from sin) he works and works and works and then his being "reborn" or "born again" happens- his conversion- and he is now a Ger Tzedek.
Thus, a Noachite was NEVER supposed to be the end result of a ger.
And the Gerim who wanted to remain noachites- they were treated as such- they recieved the civil law of Yisrael but some things were permissable for them to do- but to remain, and to remain knowingly, a noachite does no good- for this person is not working toward his salvation.
but there are some goy who are considered righteous- these make the exception to all the gerim.
but another topic all together no?


GREETINGS CHANAHS,

It is my hope that all is well with you and yours and that you are in shalom and prospering most copiously, all thanks be to HaShem, most blessed is He!

Gibberet Chanahs,
you said:
As a Jew, I've never heard this, i.e. that they are grafted in by a desire to convert. Converts to Judaism are grafted in, but a noachide is not someone who is dedicated to converting. In fact, they may have no intent whatsoever.
------
I agree with what you said.
However, it does not negate what I said at all- please take a look at what I said again, maybe you will see to which group of noachites is been specified

you also said:
In addition, per the Ramchal, "In the world to come, however, there will be no nation other than Israel. The souls of righteous gentiles [noachides by implication] will be allowed to exist in the future word, but only as an addition and attachment to Israel."

ahh, thank you, i guess this answers the above comment (question) that I have above.

You also said in answering Charles:
Yes, so the gentile had to convert to participate in some Jewish rituals.

The gentile, can only partake of one feast- and it isn't shabbat
so he had to convert to partake of ALL Jewish feasts minus one[because he could do that one without converting].
Can a gentile go to the snoga on Shabbat?
YES!
However, did he practice and KEEP the shabbat, no!
He would have to learn the Rabbinical requirements of what it is to DO shabbat-
in the case of a Noachite who studies and studies the words of the Torah she baal peh(Oral Torah)- even if he has YET to convert, he may KEEP the shabbat, because all can see that his intent is to at the very least look as Jewish as possible- never mind that either, he is DOING what he is learning!
This is Judaism- to DO! and thus, it is the mark of a true convert and pleases those who teach this proselyte.
However, the FIRST mark of a proselyte is to obey the laws of Kashrut in order that the Jews and gerim may sit together at a table and there be shalom.
Thus, I am not at all very happy with the bnei Noach movement for they are allowed to eat pork.
In other words, it is as if it is being said, "We don't want you in the synagogue."
when it should be said, "If you want to come here- these laws you will and must follow in order to sit and study with us."

lol, there are sooo many laws and technicalities...lol

shalom u'brachot,
Antonio

sojeru said:

EVERY Noachite begins as a Ger Toshab (a stranger who turned [repented]) and he MAY or MAY not have a place in the world to come- he MUST work at his salvation.

in the case of a Noachite who studies and studies the words of the Torah she baal peh(Oral Torah)- even if he has YET to convert, he may KEEP the shabbat, because all can see that his intent is to at the very least look as A

Click to expand...

I need to take exception to two things here. A ger toshav is a noachide who resides in Israel and accepts Jewish civil rule. All noachides are not a ger toshav. Na'aman is considered a bnei noach in Judaism but was not a ger toshav. According to the halacha of Rambam, we do not have a ger toshav status without a temple. So this halachic status does not currently exist. Several people have proposed this as an option should we have a temple for the lost tribes who are Christians and who want to live in Israel.

Until a person converts, s/he is not allowed to keep Shabbat. There is a book on conversion by, I believe, R' Yoel Schwartz which goes into detail about what a Gentile can and cannot do prior to conversion. Shabbat is one of those which is forbidden. Also, so people don't get upset, this is keeping Shabbat according to all of its laws.

CharlesYTK said:

Setting all this aside for a moment then, I gather that you are saying that Gentiles need first to convert to Judaism to beome part of the family of faithful followers, OR as an alternative follow the Noachide rabbinical traditions and remain separated and distant from Gods family. This would help to preserve Jewish exclusivity and Keep Gentiles in a secondary position.

Click to expand...

As to your first point, not at all. Judaism teaches that anyone can be a faithful follower, according to how he was called. If a Jew, as a Jew. If a Gentile, as a Gentile. You might want to read what I wrote under Applicability of Halacha in Jewish Debates. It is the second post I believe. Faithfulness has nothing to do with the number of laws you are required to follow. Women have a lot fewer commands which they are required to follow than men. That doesn't mean they can't be faithful or are less faithful.

As I showed in a previous post, in the world to come, there will only be Israel. Righteous gentiles at that time are associated with Israel although they are not Jews.

As far as right now, yes, there are some commands which are not applicable to Gentiles and are solely associated with the Jews. And yes, this is for the purpose of exclusivity. People coming from western type educational backgrounds, and especially those from the US where individuality is so important, have a hard time with this. The Jews are not simply a race of people with their converts who are to live as individuals throughout the world. The Jews were chosen to be a nation. God displays Himself to the world through a nation. The platform or stage is to be the land of Israel. I personally have seen the bewilderment in Asia concerning this little tiny nation Israel which all these huge countries seem to want. It is a very different setup than what Yeshua was doing. He was setting up his body as pockets throughout the world by which love was to be demonstrated. This was to be demonstration through communities dispersed throughout the world at the local level. This is their role so to speak. On the other hand, God wanted to demonstrate Himself at the national level through a localization of a people as a nation on a specific piece of land. This is the role of the chosen nation. Some of the commands, like living in Israel as well as some others, were to demonstrate and maintain this separateness (especially since God knew that dispersion would take place and they needed to be preserved culturally in order to be returned) for fulfilling the national level calling.

sojeru said:

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Yeshuah was accepted amoungst all the Rabbis of that time as a Rabbi (from amoungst the pharisees and their elite- a pharisaic group known as the Hassidim of which Yeshuah was a part of).
As you can see, I have no quarrel with Yeshuah.
And thus, see him as a good man, a Rabbi, a master of Jewish Law according to Rabbinical Judaism- that is what he taught. He was a Tanna.

and concerning the latter part of your comments on the such of Paul, I partially see your point- but disagree.
we can speak about this subject in another section of the forums if you'd like as to not break the rules here.

shalom u'brachot,
Antonio

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Antonio,

I would be pleased to converse with you on these things. I read some informaion on the idea that Yeshua was actually a Pharisee. I know that a number of his teachings are very much in line with Pharisee doctrine, and some of his Parables are adaptations from them as well. The one point that I could not see clear on was the fact that none of the Pharisees in Jerusalem seem to know him. When accusing him they ask, "Who is this man? Where did he get authority for this teaching...ect." Which makes it seem that he was not known by the Pharisees.

You can PM me when you get a thread started.

Charles

sojeru said:

You also said in answering Charles:
Yes, so the gentile had to convert to participate in some Jewish rituals.

The gentile, can only partake of one feast- and it isn't shabbat
so he had to convert to partake of ALL Jewish feasts minus one[because he could do that one without converting].
Can a gentile go to the snoga on Shabbat?
YES!
However, did he practice and KEEP the shabbat, no!
He would have to learn the Rabbinical requirements of what it is to DO shabbat-
in the case of a Noachite who studies and studies the words of the Torah she baal peh(Oral Torah)- even if he has YET to convert, he may KEEP the shabbat, because all can see that his intent is to at the very least look as Jewish as possible- never mind that either, he is DOING what he is learning!
This is Judaism- to DO! and thus, it is the mark of a true convert and pleases those who teach this proselyte.
However, the FIRST mark of a proselyte is to obey the laws of Kashrut in order that the Jews and gerim may sit together at a table and there be shalom.
Thus, I am not at all very happy with the bnei Noach movement for they are allowed to eat pork.
In other words, it is as if it is being said, "We don't want you in the synagogue."
when it should be said, "If you want to come here- these laws you will and must follow in order to sit and study with us."

lol, there are sooo many laws and technicalities...lol

shalom u'brachot,
Antonio

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Although this is addressed to Chanah I want to interject if I may, and say thanks fo this. It is what I have been saying as well. And from my understanding this was also the intent of the Acts 15 Apostolic decree, to establish a point of entry that demonstrated the Pagan Gentiles repentence, and provided a level of initial observance that would not be offensive to the more mature Jewish believers, (and None Believing Jews) with whom they would need to enter into Table fellowship with in order to progress further in their Torah observance.