Oneness Pentacostalism...Jesus Only Theory

scuba_steve83 · Aug 1, 2003

Never2Heavy said:
Genesis 2:26 NIV Then God said let us make man in our own image, in our likeness

Genesis 2:26 KJV And God said, Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness:

Genesis 2:26 NLT Then God said, Let us make people in our own image, to be like ourselves

Genesis 2:26 NASB Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

I think God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have been together from the beginning and are not bound by physical dimensions.

God in the OT is pretty easy to understand.

God coming to earth in the form of a man in NTA little harder to grasp; however, while Jesus (apart of God) was on earth God was still in heaven.

After Jesus returned to heaven he sent the Holy Spirit as a Comforter/Counselor/Helper for those that would accept Christ.

The Holy Spirit in you and I helps to discern the truth revealed in the Bible. The truth in examples and teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. Through the Holy Spirit we have the opportunity to develop a relationship with Christ, and ultimately with God. A relationship based on love.

John 14:7 NIV If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.

Again, I dont think that God, Jesus and Holy Spirit are bound physical dimension; however, it helps one to think of thinks in terms of the physical world.

God Father sitting on the throne, with His Son at His right side with the Holy Spirit on earth in our hearts connecting us to each other and to the Lord, and the Father.

Regards,
Mike

Hiya, Mike.

'Tis a shame to talk of God by spliting Him up as if you were talking about three persons. Does it not bother you that is not a 100% monotheistic view? The Jews cannot accept such a doctrine like trinity because it does not hold to the view of one God in singular existance. In fact, Muhummad started Islam partly based on the insipiration that he only worshiped ONE God and that the trinitarian doctrine that gained so much popularity in that time was completely foregin and totally unacceptable.

Your misunderstanding of the use of the word "us" and the right hand of God is great and needs biblically-supported explanation. If you wish, you may contact me on MSN Messenger or e-mail or PM (see my profile for info). I would explain here, but it's 3:08 A.M. ET as I type and it's just a "little" past my usual bed time. lol

May the Spirit of truth avail.

In Jesus' name,
Stephen

scuba_steve83 · Aug 1, 2003

BT said:
Ok no debate just answers..

1) This theology comes from the Azuza street revival that happened way back when (I can't recall the exact date). You won't find it in the Bible. This so called revival was the beginning of an unfortunate great "falling away". I won't start a big flame on it... the point is that this "revival" is where the theory (false theory) that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

That's a lie. The theology stems way back before so called "Orthodox" Christianity (which is actually post-Nicene Christianity). Look for my post about tongues to explain how speaking with other tongues (not the gift of tongues) is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And you know what? It's not exclusively Apostolic to believe such. Pentecostals of all groups preach so, even T.D. Jakes the most well known African American preacher in our nation.

2) You get baptized to follow the example of Jesus. If you've given your heart to him, admitted your sin, asked him to be Lord of your life and get him by a truck, you'll be in heaven. Consider the thief on the cross, Jesus said to him "This day you will be with me in paradise." He wasn't baptized. Don't get me wrong!! You need to get baptized!! By imersion but in your questions case.. you'd be ok.

You get baptized to be buried with Jesus after your repentance. It is part of salvation (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21). and IT IS for remission (forgiveness) of sins (Acts 2:38).

3) This belief is wrong and can't be backed up anywhere in the Bible. (I
know that's not really an answer but it would take many pages to attempt to explain the trinity.) Suffice it to say that God is ONE with three distinct persons. The Jesus only doctrine is false.

Jesus being the only true God is NOT a false doctrine. 1 John 5:20 says so period. Believing any other seperate person can be the only true God is not truly monotheistic. It's all in Jesus (Col 2:9).

You learn from tradition that the Oneness church is false because we do not confess belief in extrabiblical doctrine and creeds and you accept the reasons against us without exploring the word for yourself to see why we believe what we believe. It's so typical.

Go to http://www.altupc.com/articles/upcicult.htm and read "Answering the Charge of Cultism" if you would please.

God bless,
Stephen

Edited by MizDoulos for Rule 2.

MizDoulos · Aug 1, 2003

Note to all: Before this discussion deteriorates any further, let's step back and think twice before posting any further. If the thread continues to go downhill and rules are violated, it will be closed and/or warnings issued.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[notroll]

Philip · Aug 1, 2003

scuba_steve83 said:
Jesus says in Mark 16:17 that "they shall speak with new tongues." He did not say maybe, perhaps, or a few shall speak with new tongues. They SHALL.

Do you drink poison as well?

scuba_steve83 · Aug 1, 2003

Philip, I do not drink poison on purpose but if I did by mistake then it will NOT harm me because the Word of God says so. I have faith.

Crusader · Aug 2, 2003

Hi Steve, Sorry it has taken a couple of days to answer you mate, I have been caught up with other things. There is a few things I wanted to address hear in your post;

For you to feel that the Oneness church is "legalistic and dogmatic" and that the Oneness church causes bondage in a believer with their legalism is judgment seemingly based on misunderstanding of the doctrine we preach

No, not at all Steve, I was baptized in Jesus name and born again in the UPC.
The legalism that comes from the UPC hasnt got to do with there views of the salvation doctrines , as I understand and cant argue about that but what I do know, is that there are other expectations put on believers. Just a couple of things; clothing, make up. It is not the place of the church to control the believers in these ways in my opinion. I have both known and been involved with the UPC and Jesus only believers along with Brenham teachings. I dont think I misunderstand it Steve. I was baptized in Jesus name and I used to be involved with the UPC, so I have seen both sides of it. I have lived a Christian life under the UPC and I have lived a Christian life by faith through grace along with mainstream Christianity and I can say confidently that I would never return to the UPC because they fail to understand Grace and Faith, in my opinion.

Your comment made me remember something my pastor once said. He says, "You may find a hole in my method, but you'll be hard pressed to find one in our doctrine."

My gripe isnt with he UPC doctrines on salvation, baptism and who Jesus is but rather it is with other teachings that cause control and bondage in the believer.

For example, Let me put this to you Steve;

If you had a young Lady coming to your church and she was a believer and a part of your church and she chose, through her own convictions , to wear a lot of make up on her face, to church, weekly, Would she be Picked up on it, asked not to do it, judged , gossiped about and even rejected???

If any of these take place in your church , then this is the sought of thing that I have seen coming from the UPC when I know that it is the Holy Ghost that leads us and convicts us, not the whole Church or even the pastor.

I have seen this and far worse from The UPC.

You see, God set the pattern on how salvation was poured out, but as time progressed, the great falling away crept in and several new denominations started sewing their own patterns with the needle of their own philosophies.

Most denominations build there segregation with the mainstream Christian church through having a pet doctrine. The pet doctrine of the UPC is baptism in Jesus name and that is the doctrinal emphasis that the UPC is all about.

That doctrine is preached so regularly because it is designed to divide and segregate the UPC from mainstream and therefore creator a cult, like the JWs and the Mormons, they get deluded into believing they are the only truth.

Steve, do you find yourself striving to save the saved because that is a trait of the UPC too. They dont go out to save the lost, they go out and tell the saved that they arent saved until they receive the true baptism??

save the gospel of salvation for the lost mate, because we Christians are all saved by gods grace through our faith in the son of the most high.

Steve, learn about grace, do all to learn about gods grace because that healed me from the wounds caused by the legalism of the UPC. It took a good Baptist minister to come to my door weekly to help me to realize and see the damage done by the legalists in the UPC and I thank god for him to this day and for the truth of gods grace.
Learn about gods grace brother and you will see a huge hole in the UPC methods of following Jesus, as I did.

I thought the Church I went to was so close, I even thanked god for the unity of the brethren while in church worshiping our lord and I had a vision of great division between the believers in the church and I said, No lord, not so and I ignored god because all I saw was the unity of the brethren and then, within 3 weeks, that church was torn apart and shattered by infighting all the way up to the pastors and all the way down to the young born against, like myself, that place was torn to shreds within weeks of that vision and I have learned a lot about the UPC since then. That was 12 yrs ago now and I still know people in the UPC and they havent changed, I have also seen many of the UPC believers eventually leave the UPC and join mainstream Christianity and never ever return to the UPC because they have seen both sides of Christianity and have judged rightly to go after god through faith by grace, not simply by doctrines..

scuba_steve83 · Aug 3, 2003

Crusader said:
Hi Steve, Sorry it has taken a couple of days to answer you mate, I have been caught up with other things. There is a few things I wanted to address hear in your post;

No, not at all Steve, I was baptized in Jesus name and born again in the UPC.
The legalism that comes from the UPC hasnt got to do with there views of the salvation doctrines , as I understand and cant argue about that but what I do know, is that there are other expectations put on believers. Just a couple of things; clothing, make up. It is not the place of the church to control the believers in these ways in my opinion. I have both known and been involved with the UPC and Jesus only believers along with Brenham teachings. I dont think I misunderstand it Steve. I was baptized in Jesus name and I used to be involved with the UPC, so I have seen both sides of it. I have lived a Christian life under the UPC and I have lived a Christian life by faith through grace along with mainstream Christianity and I can say confidently that I would never return to the UPC because they fail to understand Grace and Faith, in my opinion.

My gripe isnt with he UPC doctrines on salvation, baptism and who Jesus is but rather it is with other teachings that cause control and bondage in the believer.

For example, Let me put this to you Steve;

If you had a young Lady coming to your church and she was a believer and a part of your church and she chose, through her own convictions , to wear a lot of make up on her face, to church, weekly, Would she be Picked up on it, asked not to do it, judged , gossiped about and even rejected???

If any of these take place in your church , then this is the sought of thing that I have seen coming from the UPC when I know that it is the Holy Ghost that leads us and convicts us, not the whole Church or even the pastor.

I have seen this and far worse from The UPC.

Most denominations build there segregation with the mainstream Christian church through having a pet doctrine. The pet doctrine of the UPC is baptism in Jesus name and that is the doctrinal emphasis that the UPC is all about.

That doctrine is preached so regularly because it is designed to divide and segregate the UPC from mainstream and therefore creator a cult, like the JWs and the Mormons, they get deluded into believing they are the only truth.

Steve, do you find yourself striving to save the saved because that is a trait of the UPC too. They dont go out to save the lost, they go out and tell the saved that they arent saved until they receive the true baptism??

save the gospel of salvation for the lost mate, because we Christians are all saved by gods grace through our faith in the son of the most high.

Steve, learn about grace, do all to learn about gods grace because that healed me from the wounds caused by the legalism of the UPC. It took a good Baptist minister to come to my door weekly to help me to realize and see the damage done by the legalists in the UPC and I thank god for him to this day and for the truth of gods grace.
Learn about gods grace brother and you will see a huge hole in the UPC methods of following Jesus, as I did.

I thought the Church I went to was so close, I even thanked god for the unity of the brethren while in church worshiping our lord and I had a vision of great division between the believers in the church and I said, No lord, not so and I ignored god because all I saw was the unity of the brethren and then, within 3 weeks, that church was torn apart and shattered by infighting all the way up to the pastors and all the way down to the young born against, like myself, that place was torn to shreds within weeks of that vision and I have learned a lot about the UPC since then. That was 12 yrs ago now and I still know people in the UPC and they havent changed, I have also seen many of the UPC believers eventually leave the UPC and join mainstream Christianity and never ever return to the UPC because they have seen both sides of Christianity and have judged rightly to go after god through faith by grace, not simply by doctrines..

Good evening.

I am terribly sorry about your experience with the United Pentecostal Church. Please understand the church you attended does not represent the organization as a whole. It seems as though whomever presented the doctrines concerning outward holiness standards did so in a manner not in love and without the ideals you and I both share: personal conviction.

Gossip and judgement from other church members is always wrong and is not proper behavior for God's children. For some, it takes only days to be convicted about outward appearance. For some others, it may take years. I understand where you stand about the legalism you feel in the UPC. I have "friends" both in the UPC and the ALJC (another Apostolic organization if you did not know so already) that constantly frown upon those not following standards as they have been taught to believe, and it truly does upset me that they always look on the outside as means of deciding who is completely right with God.

[John 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.]

I sincerely do share the same anguish you feel about the judgemental attitudes of those in the Apostolic church. However, I feel it is not right to label the United Pentecostal Church as a whole as a church that does not represent God's grace and love as the Lord instructed. Those who grew up in the Apostolic church are typically at least third generation and have not known the reality of living a worldly lifestyle like you and I came from, so naturally their understanding as to why one would not change his or her look overnight is blurred. Church is all that a lot of Apostolics of old and their kin have ever known. It is engraved in their minds that men wear pants and women wear dresses and skirts. It's hard for them to look beyond that to someone's heart. I myself have been ridiculed for wearing shorts; not from people in my church, but in another Apostolic church.

For what it's worth, the United Pentecostal Church I attend does not preach outward holiness standards. My pastor shares the same sentiment you and I do that it is God's place to convict someone as he or she explores His word concerning such issues as the outward appearance.

As for the matter of the doctrine of water baptism, the UPC preaches the truth without the care of having favor in the eyes of "mainstream Christianity." For the Word of God to plainly state that baptism is "for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and that it "also saves us" (1 Peter 3:21), it is clear what we ought to believe. Frankly, the Apostolic church rather be divided by truth than united in error with churches that do not follow the pattern that the scriptures in the book of Acts consistantly sewed at least four times on how to be born again. The doctrine is not preached to divide and segregate the UPC from "mainstream Christianity." Truth has already done so. The result? The hunters come snaking out of their holes to brand us a cult, but what can we do? What we do is respond with the annointed truth-filled Word of God and stand firmly on what it says concerning original apostolic salvation, regardless of the opposition by "mainstream Christianity."

If we come off as the "only truth," then understand this: Jesus is the truth (John 14:6). He proclaimed remission of sins should be preached in HIS name starting at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). Starting at Jerusalem, remission of sins was preached through baptism in JESUS' name (Acts 2:38). If that's the truth first preached and if the Apostolic church is the only church that preaches that truth, then it seems to be that we're the only truth afterall, but that is certainly not the case. Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant movement if I'm not mistaken, held to the view that baptism is part of salvation, but was he labled a heretic? Nope. Did he change his views for anyone because the majority of others disagreed with him? I sure do not know, but what I do know is that the Apostolic church will not trade our belief for unity amongst denominal churches, even at the risk of having the unbecoming label of a cult. Our passion for truth will not be diminished by the wagging fingers of our opponents.

Now concerning torn churches - it is quite unfortunate. Again, your experience does not represent the rest of the members of the United Pentecostal Church in any form. I am appalled at such behavior within the Apostolic church. Your experience should not however give you a catalyst to go congregating with people who have not been born again as scripture clearly instructs. Compromising what you know to be true is not worth the favor of "mainstream Christianity." The Baptist, the Methodist, or the Lutheran who lives a decent life, who has a good heart, and loves God will not know real victory in the Holy Ghost or genuine salvation for that matter until you share that there's more for them than simply believing and confessing. Not one place in the Bible did people believe and confess only to be saved. It's not scriptural and acting on that belief is deceiving millions. God's grace is administered to every believer regardless of denomination. I believe that with all my heart, but there is a FINE LINE between God's grace and salvation itself, for salvation is by grace THROUGH faith (Ephesians 2:8). Simply, God's grace requires man's response. If the one who receives God's grace does not respond as instructed in God's scriptures, then they are still in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

[Romans 8:8 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.]

Many people come to experience true scriptural salvation without having a deep intellectual discussion about doctrine or without a discussion at all, but for those who live their lives thinking they are born again need someone to minister scriptural doctrine on how to be born again as Acts tell us to be.

[Romans 10:14 - How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 - And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.]

Our hearts lie to us. Don't let yours lie to you about you think is saved. Scripture is the authority on what "saved" is defined as, not you or latter-day denominations.

May the Spirit of love and truth avail.

In Jesus' name,
Stephen

OldShepherd · Aug 3, 2003

scuba_steve83 said:
'Tis a shame to talk of God by spliting Him up as if you were talking about three persons. Does it not bother you that is not a 100% monotheistic view? The Jews cannot accept such a doctrine like trinity because it does not hold to the view of one God in singular existance. In fact, Muhummad started Islam partly based on the insipiration that he only worshiped ONE God and that the trinitarian doctrine that gained so much popularity in that time was completely foregin and totally unacceptable.

[size=+1]The Biblical doctrine of the Trinity IS monotheistic. It begins with the great Shema, “Hear O Israel the LORD our God, the LORD He is one” 1 John 5:7 says in twenty two words what Christians say in one word, “Trinity” or “Tri-Unity.”

It is irrelevant what the Jews do or do not accept. Orthodox Judaism also rejects Jesus Christ as the Messiah and call Him a mamzer, a bastard. Should Christians reject Jesus because Jews do not accept Him? These same Jews also call Mary, the mother of Jesus, a prostitute. Read for yourself at this link to the Jewish Encyclopedia.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J

The statement about Muhammad is false and not based on any historical evidence. Muslims do not even believe in a Messiah and also reject Jesus, saying He was only a prophet but that Mohammed was the last and greatest prophet. The god of the Muslims is NOT the God of the Bible.

Do Christians “split God up?” No more than Jesus Himself did. Note, in John 8:16-18 Jesus said that He was NOT alone and that He and the father were sufficiently distinct to qualify as TWO witnesses, men, required by the law.[/size]

John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

[size=+1]And OBTW what do you consider a “latter day denomination”? The UPC had its beginning in 1913 and many of their doctrines were NOT taught by the early church. The few early groups which did teach “Jesus Only” taught heresies such as the Father was crucified.[/size]

scuba_steve83 · Aug 4, 2003

OldShepard,

How can you say that the doctrine of trinity is monotheistic? One means one and nothing but one. The concept of "three in one" is linked to a philosophy not of the Jewish/Christian faith. The following is an excerpt from "Archetypes of Wisdom: An Introduction to Philosophy":

_________

Just as Anamixmander identified problems in Thales' thinking, Anaximenes recognized an important muddle at the heart of Anamixmander's doctrine. One one hand, Anamixmander characterized the aperion is one thing. How can one thing contain many particular things and still be only one thing? Is what sense is it "one thing" then? If it is indefinite, how can it be a "single thing"?

_________

Not only is trinitarian theology rooted in pagan worship of old, but is linked to philosophies not in the faith.

As for Deut 6:4, it is in no way associated with the doctrine of the trinity. I find it insulting to God's oneness that you use Deut. 6:4 to attempt to justify "the trinity". There is no denying the development of trinitarian theology between the second and fourth centuries. If the apostles and Jews of old were presented with such doctrine, not only would they find it foreign to them, but they would openly rebuke the notion that one Lord God means three people together in a unity.

As I John 5:7, it does not teach separate individuals united together in the Godhead. By tradition you accept 1 John 5:7 as explaining a doctrine not supported by scripture. Only two verses of scripture in the entire Bible mention Father, Son (or Word), and Holy Ghost in way that could suggest three persons or a special significance of the number three in relation to the Godhead. They are Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7. Both of these passages however present serious problems for the trinitarian view. Let us explore 1 John 5:7. Some interpret the phrase in the scripture to mean one in unity as husband and wife are one, but it should be pointed out that this view is essentially polytheistic. If the word one referred to unity instead of a numerical designation, then the Godhead could be viewed as many gods in a united council or government. If unity were meant, the verse should have read, "These three agree as one."

It is also interesting to note that this verse does not use the word Son, but Word. If Son were the special name of a distinct person in the Godhead, and if this verse were trying to teach distinct persons, why did it use Word instead of Son? The Word is not a distinct person from the Father any more than man and his word are distinct persons. Rather, the Word is the thought, plan, or mind of God and also the expression of God.

In a similar way, the Holy Ghost is not a separate person from the Father any more than a man and his spirit are separate persons. Holy Spirit just describes what God is. First John 5:7 says that three bear record in heaven; that is, God has recorded Himself in three modes of activity or has revealed Himself in three ways. He has at least three heavenly roles: Father, Word (not Son), and Holy Ghost. Furthermore, these three roles describe one God: "these three are one."

There is practically unanimous agreement among Bible scholars that this verse is really not part of the Bible at all! All major translations since the King James Version have omitted it, including the Revised Standard Version, The Amplified Bible, and the New International Version. So does the generally accepted Greek text (Nestle's text). The NIV renders I John 5:7-8 as, "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and these three are in agreement." The KJV included verse 7 only because the 1522 edition of the Greek text compiled by Erasmus included it. Originally Erasmus had excluded this passage from his editions of 1516 and 1519 because it was not in any of 5000 Greek manuscripts but only in late manuscripts of the Vulgate - the Latin version then used by the Roman Catholic Church. When the Catholic church put pressure on Erasmus to include this verse, he promised to do so if they could find even one Greek manuscript that had it. They finally produced one, so Erasmus reluctantly added the verse in, even though the manuscript so produced dated from 1520. It seems plausible that some overzealous copyist saw "there are three that testify" and decided to insert a little teaching of his own. Certainly, the passage in question is completely unrelated to the rest of John's discussion here and interrupts the flow of his logical argument.

Although all the evidence indicates this passage was not originally a part of I John, God had His hand of protection and preservation on His Word. Despite the efforts of man, God did not allow the passage to contradict His Word. Whether a person believes that I John 5:7 was origin ally part of the Bible or that it was a later interpolation, it does not teach three persons of God but rather reaffirms the Bible's teaching of one indivisible God with various manifestations (par. 5-9, Bernard).

It is NOT irrelevant what the Jews do or do not accept. How dare you make such an assertion? Christianity itself is rooted in Judaism of the Old Testament. The Jews not accepting Jesus is obviously their lost, but as for trinity, they openly reject such doctrine. The first of ALL commandments is about the oneness of God. No other number is understood with the number one but one! Do you have any idea how many times God is referred to as being one person? Isaiah 1:4, 5:19, 5:24, 10:17, 10:20, 12:6 and too many to keep referencing in that book and amongst other books all refer to "the Holy One." There isn't "the Holy Three". If such were true about God's threeness, then the Jews would of been in error for thousands upon thousands of years prior to the coming of the Messiah for only worshipping one God as one person.

Isaiah 44:24 - Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Is that not clear enough for you? the LORD, our Father as Isaiah 63:16 designates Him as, cites Himself as "I", not we. He credits Himself as the maker of all things and that he stretches forth the heavens ALONE and spreads abroad the earth by HIMSELF. This is ONE God talking as ONE person. Gen. 1:26 and the very few other scripture that allegedly teach a shared Godhead are greatly outnumbered by the multitudes of scripture that teach the singularity of the one God and it ought to prompt you to search for the real meaning behind Gen. 1:26 and other related scripture.

Muslims do in some respect worship the same God that is the Father of Abraham, Jacob, etc., but they do not recognize that God has revealed Himself as Jesus. Muhammad did reject the trinitarian doctrine as a motivation for starting Islam. Needless to cite a resource, Bible scholars and Muslims both readily acknowledge Muhammad's rejection of the trinity doctrine that taught that the one God he worshipped was actually three persons untied together as one. A simple web search for Islam web sites could tell you that.

As for John 8:16-18, the Jewish Law is talking about two human beings (Num. 35:30); something that does not exactly apply to the trinity or the oneness doctrines. For in neither doctrine are you dealing with two human "persons," but the essence of the Mosaic Law is what Christ is using, the spirit of it, rather than the letter. God the Father, the Almighty God of Israel, who was now in incarnate in Christ, bore witness by the miracles he performed through Christ. And Jesus Christ -- the Man, the Son who was born of Mary, also bore witness through his sinless life, and infallible teachings. In the Oneness doctrine therefore, it is taught that there are two minds or centers of consciousness, one divine and the other human, that bore witness to Christ's ministry. This is the equivalent of what Moses' Law required. The fact that the first witness, the Father, dwells within the Son, the second witness, has no negative bearing on the case at all. For the residence of a witness does not affect his testimony! And besides, even Neo-Trinitarians admit the Father fully dwells in the Son.

What I mean by latter-day denominations are all the daughters of the Catholic Church that decided to go off on their own and believe a little different from scripture based on the philosophies of the men who started their denominations. Sure enough as the Bible teaches, the daughters will be back with the Catholic Church their mother to be one world religion. The United Pentecostal Church did NOT have its beginning in 1913, but actually some time in the 1940's (1945 if I'm not mistaken). The movement to start a church for those who are called "Oneness" is dated around 1913 as you cited, but the doctrines the Apostolic Church teaches does not share the same year of birth as you may think. Scripture proclaims Christ as the fullness of the Godhead (Col. 2:9) and salvation by obeying what the apostles taught with Jesus' authority to back it up (Matt. 16:19, John 3:5, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38-41, Acts 8:16-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6). Why does it matter to some that the Catholic Church introduced doctrines from the fourth century and later? It doesn't, but the unscriptural creeds got passed on through TRADITION, creeds that are rooted in PHILOSOPHIES: both which Paul warned against in Col. 2:8. By the way, don't you find it amusing that right after Col. 2:8 that Paul teaches that the Godhead fully dwells in Jesus? This certainly gives light to what heresy that was creeping into the Colossian Church and what Paul was doing to combat it. If Jesus is truly separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit, Paul could not have taught that ALL the Godhead dwells within our Lord. The Apostolic Church is only considered a denomination for the necessity of having a church for those confessing their faith in Jesus as their only way to salvation, but in reality the idea of "Apostolic Pentecostal" refers to the apostles' teachings from Pentecost as referred to in Acts 2:38. The Apostolic Church was around since Acts 2. They did not have a Nicene or Apostles' creed nor was one needed. They had the plan of salvation and they taught it and experienced it themselves as Acts shows. That's what makes me born again, not believing in an extrabiblical creed to qualify me as someone who is saved as denominal church doctrine defines, The Apostolic Church now *as formal organizations* like the UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc. are not daughters of the Catholic Church like Baptists, Lutherans, etc, but rather are in existence based on the necessity to preach the apostolic teachings as first told in Acts 2. Martin Luther taught baptism as part of salvation, but was not labeled as heretic. More importantly, scripture teaches water baptism as part of salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21). How can you disagree with the inspired Word of God? Are you so far into tradition of denominal Christianity that you're unable to see truth for what it clearly says? Are you afraid of being on the side that is persecuted for believing what the apostles taught? Do you not feel what was for those in scripture concerning apostolic salvation is not for us today?

As for the Father being crucified, be careful not to misinterpret what the UPC and other Apostolic churches say on this subject. What does SCRIPTURE say? First, let's make sure we both acknowledge the LORD is designated as the Father as I have mentioned before.

Isaiah 63:16 - Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

With that said, the LORD our Father had these prophecies in His holy scriptures:

Isaiah 40:3 - The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Apparently, John the Baptist was to meet the LORD, our Father, but it was Jesus (who you deny being the Father) who came to John. Which came? Did two or three come to John? Of course not. Only one did: Jesus came.

Zechariah 11:12 - And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

The price of the LORD, our Father who is the Holy ONE of Israel as Isaiah 1:4 says, was thirty pieces of silver. Were two or three traded? Nope. Only one was -- Jesus was traded for thirty pieces of silver.

Zechariah 13:6 - And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

The LORD, our Father who spreads abroad the earth by HIMSELF, was wounded in the hands. Were two or three wounded? Nope. Only one was -- Jesus was wounded in the hands.

The Apostolic Church teaches the Father was crucified on the cross because Jesus IS the Father (Isaiah 9:6), but we do not teach that the Father died, because our Father is the eternal Holy Spirit and cannot die. After all, it was the Spirit that raised Jesus as we both acknowledge. It was the Son that died, the Son being the LORD's humanity. The human body is mortal and is subject to frailty and ultimately death. There is only one God and Father of all (John 8:41, Eph 4:6). Our Creator, God our Father, is the Word (John 1:1). The Word became flesh (John 1:14). God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). God was manifest in flesh as the Son as we both know, not as a successive person in the Godhead but as a simultaneous manifestation of the one God. That's why Jesus could say the things he said in John 10:30, 12:44, 14:9, 16:25, and so forth. The Apostle John certainly shared the same views I am expressing to you. He taught in 1 John 2:22-23 that those who deny Jesus as the Christ deny the Father and the Son and those that deny the Son do not have the Father. In 2 John 9 he teaches those who abide in the doctrine of Christ have both the Father and the Son. It's quite peculiar that the so-called third member of the trinity is not mention in those scriptures. If God were a trinity, then by necessity would all two-fold references of the Father and the Son would need to be accompanied with the Holy Ghost following "the Son."

I find it disappointing not one person here will accept what the scriptures say concerning the Godhead and salvation. Instead, everyone here continues to dilute their minds with what they were told to believe concerning the Godhead, salvation, and the uncharitable outlook on the Apostolic Church and its members.

Have a blessed day.

In His saving name,
Stephen

OldShepherd · Aug 4, 2003

scuba_steve83 said:
OldShepard,

How can you say that the doctrine of trinity is monotheistic? One means one and nothing but one. The concept of "three in one" is linked to a philosophy not of the Jewish/Christian faith. The following is an excerpt from "Archetypes of Wisdom: An Introduction to Philosophy":

[size=+1]I'm sorry, you are very badly misled by your leaders. You are quoting all this false information you have been fed, which you evidently have not bothered to check out for yourself. There are no pagan Trinities, NONE, not one. The ONLY Trinity that exists ouside of the historic Christian church, originated in Judaism before the Christian era.[/size]

In the Zohar.

The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as “matronita,” “body,” “spirit,” occur frequently (e.q., “Tazria',” ed. Polna, iii. 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinek, “Die Kabbala,” p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 [trans]. of Franck's “La Kabbale,” Paris, 1843]). Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” in the second word of the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii. 22 (ib. p. 10), while Johann Kemper, a convert, left in manuscript a work entitled “Matteh Mosheh,” which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with the doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, “Verzeichniss der Hebraischen und Aramaischen Handschriften zu Upsala,” p. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity; but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and with monotheism. See Christianity in Its Relation to Judaism; Polemics.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=338&letter=T

[size=+1]You presume to lecture me about the Bible then have the nerve to quote a book on Philosophy.[/size]

There is no denying the development of trinitarian theology between the second and fourth centuries.

[size=+1]Prove it.[/size]

[size=+1]If the apostles and Jews of old were presented with such doctrine, not only would they find it foreign to them, but they would openly rebuke the notion that one Lord God means three people together in a unity.

Does you church teach mind reading, of people who have been dead for about 2000 years, what they thought and would or would not do?[/size]

As I John 5:7, it does not teach separate individuals united together in the Godhead. By tradition you accept 1 John 5:7 as explaining a doctrine not supported by scripture.

[size=+1]No I accept the LITERAL words of the scripture in their obvious meaning. The verse mentions THREE first then it states that these THREE are one.[/size]

They are Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7. Both of these passages however present serious problems for the trinitarian view. Let us explore 1 John 5:7.

[size=+1]How would you know, do you read Greek? I do. All you are doing is repeating what your leaders have said, I don't think you could parse a Greek verb if OBL put a gun to your head. Do you even know what parse means?[/size]

If the word one referred to unity instead of a numerical designation, then the Godhead could be viewed as many gods in a united council or government. If unity were meant, the verse should have read, "These three agree as one."

[size=+1]If you are expert in Greek tell me what this phrase from the NT means kuonou eceramou. If you cannot read Greek then please explain to me how you are going to tell me how something should have been written in Greek.[/size]

It is also interesting to note that this verse does not use the word Son, but Word.

[size=+1]That's right, logoV the unique word used by John in the gospel and the epistle to designate the Son.[/size]

In a similar way, the Holy Ghost is not a separate person from the Father any more than a man and his spirit are separate persons. Holy Spirit just describes what God is.

[size=+1]God is NOT a man, so what may or may not be true of man is irrelevant when speaking about God. Read Isaiah 55:8-9, you just had a thought about God and God already said His thoughts are higher than your thoughts.[/size]

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

First John 5:7 says that three bear record in heaven; that is, God has recorded Himself in three modes of activity or has revealed Himself in three ways. He has at least three heavenly roles: Father, Word (not Son), and Holy Ghost. Furthermore, these three roles describe one God: "these three are one."

[size=+1]You criticize Trinitarians because you say the word Trinity is not in the Bible. Please show me where the words "modes of activity" and "heavenly roles" are used in the Bible. Or for that matter show me where the word "Bible' appears in the scriptures.[/size]

Originally Erasmus had excluded this passage from his editions of 1516 and 1519 because it was not in any of 5000 Greek manuscripts but only in late manuscripts of the Vulgate - the Latin version then used by the Roman Catholic Church.

[size=+1]This information is false. It is in eight (8) Greek manuscripts and is quoted by the early church as early as 177 AD.[/size]

When the Catholic church put pressure on Erasmus to include this verse, he promised to do so if they could find even one Greek manuscript that had it. They finally produced one, so Erasmus reluctantly added the verse in, even though the manuscript so produced dated from 1520.

[size=+1]This is more poison being fed to you by your leaders. There was no such incident. This had been proven by real scholars, from Erasmus' own writings. This so-called promise to include 1 Jn 5:7 if a manuscript could be found has also been attributed to Tyndale, one of the early English translators.[/size]

Whether a person believes that I John 5:7 was origin ally part of the Bible or that it was a later interpolation, it does not teach three persons of God but rather reaffirms the Bible's teaching of one indivisible God with various manifestations (par. 5-9, Bernard).

[size=+1]I kinda figured you were quoting Barnard. Please show me anywhere in the Bible where the word "manifestation" is applied to or used of God or the Holy Spirit?[/size]

It is NOT irrelevant what the Jews do or do not accept. How dare you make such an assertion?

[size=+1]Are you going to reject Jesus because the Jews reject Him?[/size]

There isn't "the Holy Three".

[size=+1]That's right. Which shows you know nothing about the doctrine of the Trinity.[/size]

Muslims do in some respect worship the same God that is the Father of Abraham, Jacob, etc., but they do not recognize that God has revealed Himself as Jesus.

[size=+1]There is NO love in Islam. Allah does NOT love his followers. Muslim do NOT love Allah, they consider themselves slaves. The name Abdullah means slave of Allah. Allah is NOT a father to his slaves.[/size]

Muhammad did reject the trinitarian doctrine as a motivation for starting Islam. Needless to cite a resource, Bible scholars and Muslims both readily acknowledge Muhammad's rejection of the trinity doctrine that taught that the one God he worshipped was actually three persons untied together as one. A simple web search for Islam web sites could tell you that.

[size=+1]Prove that anything about the Trinity influenced Muhammad. If there is so much information out there, find some. But you see I have already studied this issue myself. I wrote a paper in graduate school on Islam more than 2 decades ago. Here is a thread where I debated Islam with at least two Muslims. Scroll down to post 202, where I list the nature of Allah from Islamic sources.[/size]

http://www.christianforums.com/t18007&page=21&highlight=islam

As for John 8:16-18, the Jewish Law is talking about two human beings (Num. 35:30); something that does not exactly apply to the trinity or the oneness doctrines. For in neither doctrine are you dealing with two human "persons," but the essence of the Mosaic Law is what Christ is using, the spirit of it, rather than the letter.

[size=+1]Where does Jesus say He is talking about the spirit rather than the letter? Remember this was Jesus talking to Jews, NOT Barnard trying to disprove the Trinity. What did they understand, when Jesus said two men, two witnesses?[/size]

God the Father, the Almighty God of Israel, who was now in incarnate in Christ, bore witness by the miracles he performed through Christ. And Jesus Christ -- the Man, the Son who was born of Mary, also bore witness through his sinless life, and infallible teachings.

[size=+1]Jesus did NOT say "God bore witness by miracles" And Jesus did NOT say He, "bore witness through his sinless life.' Why are you perverting the scriptures? Shall I post the verses again so you can know exactly what Jesus said?[/size]

In the Oneness doctrine therefore, it is taught that there are two minds or centers of consciousness, one divine and the other human, that bore witness to Christ's ministry.

[size=+1]Please show me where this "oneness doctrine" is taught in scripture? According to the word of God, how many minds does one person have?[/size]

This is the equivalent of what Moses' Law required.

[size=+1]Please show me from Jewish sources that one visible person, Jesus, qualifies as TWO witnesses under the law.[/size]

OldShepherd · Aug 4, 2003

scuba_steve83 said:
The fact that the first witness, the Father, dwells within the Son, the second witness, has no negative bearing on the case at all. For the residence of a witness does not affect his testimony!

[size=+1]Can you prove any of this from Jewish sources instead of Barnard and others like him?[/size]

And besides, even Neo-Trinitarians admit the Father fully dwells in the Son.

[size=+1]So? And the Bible says that the Son dwells in the father.[/size]

What I mean by latter-day denominations are all the daughters of the Catholic Church that decided to go off on their own and believe a little different from scripture based on the philosophies of the men who started their denominations.

[size=+1]Oh you mean like the UPC which teaches "God with various manifestations", "God has recorded Himself in three modes of activity", "at least three heavenly roles", "two minds or centers of consciousness," none of which appear in scripture.[/size]

The United Pentecostal Church did NOT have its beginning in 1913, but actually some time in the 1940's (1945 if I'm not mistaken).

[size=+1]It began in 1913 and one branch broke off in the 1940's to form the UPC. The majority did not believe in salvation by baptism. The point is it did NOT start at the time of the disciples and continue until the present day.[/size]

Why does it matter to some that the Catholic Church introduced doctrines from the fourth century and later? It doesn't, but the unscriptural creeds got passed on through TRADITION, creeds that are rooted in PHILOSOPHIES:

[size=+1]The doctrine of the Trinity began over three hundred years before there was a Catholic church. And Philosophy has nothing to do with it.[/size]

More importantly, scripture teaches water baptism as part of salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21). How can you disagree with the inspired Word of God?

[size=+1]No scripture does NOT teach that. And the early church did NOT teach that. "By grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself."[/size]

Are you so far into tradition of denominal Christianity that you're unable to see truth for what it clearly says?

[size=+1]You be real careful with your words. You will not be told again.[/size]

Are you afraid of being on the side that is persecuted for believing what the apostles taught? Do you not feel what was for those in scripture concerning apostolic salvation is not for us today?

[size=+1]If being persecuted makes a denomination right then the JW and LDS must be right, because they are persecuted too.[/size]

As for the Father being crucified, be careful not to misinterpret what the UPC and other Apostolic churches say on this subject.

[size=+1]Be careful to read my post. I said the only groups in the early church that taught oneness also taught that the father was crucified and died.[/size]

The Apostolic Church teaches the Father was crucified on the cross because Jesus IS the Father (Isaiah 9:6), but we do not teach that the Father died, because our Father is the eternal Holy Spirit and cannot die.

[size=+1]Isaiah 9;6 is mistranslated in KJV it should be "father of eternity". The PERSON, and Jesus was a person, who was crucified on the cross DIED and was buried and just before He died He said, "Father into your hands I commend my spirit." Please explain how the person who was crucified did not die.[/size]

It's quite peculiar that the so-called third member of the trinity is not mention in those scriptures. If God were a trinity, then by necessity would all two-fold references of the Father and the Son would need to be accompanied with the Holy Ghost following "the Son."

[size=+1]I find it peculiar that there are many scriptures which only speak of God alone, Jesus alone, and the Holy Spirit alone. In Acts, in one verse Peter says Annanias and Sapphira lied to God and in another verse they lied to the Holy Spirit. And the scriptures also say that the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed distinct from the Son.[/size]

I find it disappointing not one person here will accept what the scriptures say concerning the Godhead and salvation. Instead, everyone here continues to dilute their minds with what they were told to believe concerning the Godhead, salvation, and the uncharitable outlook on the Apostolic Church and its members.

[size=+1]I find it disappointing not one person in the UPC will accept what the scriptures, ALL the scriptures, say concerning the Godhead and salvation. Instead, everyone in the UPC continues to dilute their minds with what they were told to believe, by people like Barnard, concerning the Godhead, salvation, and the uncharitable outlook on the Christian Church.

I have NEVER encountered an anti-trinitarian who could accurately and truthfully describe the Trinity as believed by the church.[/size]

Crusader · Aug 4, 2003

Hi Steve, sorry this is so long mate, I suppose I have a lot to say on this subject and I by no means mean any offence although this is my experience with the UPC movement.

I am terribly sorry about your experience with the United Pentecostal Church. Please understand the church you attended does not represent the organization as a whole. It seems as though whomever presented the doctrines concerning outward holiness standards did so in a manner not in love and without the ideals you and I both share: personal conviction.

There are some UPC groups that present the holiness doctrines through teaching conviction as you say but I have heard most the UPC preachers and teachers and been to quite a few congregations of UPC members in Perth and Adelaide, in Australia. my best mate and brother in the lord was a staunch UPC member and so was I, both from different churchs, one in Perth and one in Adelaide and both of us have come out from her and followed god through the ministries of mainstream Christianity (this does not mean roman Catholicism) and both of us have found that most Christians do understand that god is one, even better than the UPC, because they confuse the issue by focusing on revelation, that Jesus is the fullness of the godhead and we there for baptize in Jesus name.

Before my best mate left the UPC, we had huge discussions about Christianity and the UPC and he pumped me with UPC preachers while I taught him grace.

He came out, and he is as on fire for god as ever. I have been out for 12 years now and I would never return to a UPC church because I have no need. There are churches every were and the church I attend is were the god of my convictions has told me to go, the same as the god of my convictions had told me to leave the UPC And never return.

For what it's worth, the United Pentecostal Church I attend does not preach outward holiness standards. My pastor shares the same sentiment you and I do that it is God's place to convict someone as he or she explores His word concerning such issues as the outward appearance.

I am happy to hear this Steve. I do know there are some very good Christians among the UPC and some good pastors and even some of the worlds best preachers are UPC (if others would hear them

) if you know what I mean. It sounds like you have a good pastor and a good understanding of grace Steve.

Holiness to me is not something like righteousness. It isnt something we do, it is something we have. Holiness is what we get from being in the presence of a holy god and righteousness comes from that. I had to study and ask god to teach me about holiness because the UPC screwed that concept right up. We become holy simply by being in the presence of god, we then act righteously as our god would require. The holiness imparted to us while in gods presence enables us to walk in his righteousness.
The UPC taught me that holiness was righteousness and righteousness was holiness???????? Not so Steve, not so mate.

As for the matter of the doctrine of water baptism, the UPC preaches the truth without the care of having favor in the eyes of "mainstream Christianity."

I have no argument with the doctrines of baptism concerning it being in Jesus name and for the remission of sins and it is vitally a part of salvation, even The Mark of a believer. I have no argument with this truth except to say it is emphasized far to much in the UPC till it has become the doctrine that has made the denomination and therefore created a denomination founded apon a doctrine and this was not the message that the apostles emphasized. There emphasis was Jesus and him crucified and raised and the hope of the resurrection from the dead. That was the apostles main emphasis, not baptism in Jesus name. That was simply something they did.

I dont know what you know of the history of the church but there were people through time that stepped forward to express the importants of baptism and one of these were the Anabaptists. These Anabaptists were persecuted and wiped out but there truth and persecution revived that truth. I doubt that these Anabaptists were baptizing in Jesus name although they did have the revelation that we are to repent and be fully emerged in water for the remission of sins.

So, because there revelation wasnt totally 100% , did that damage there conversion to faith in god through the blood of Christ?? I dont believe it did and I dont believe it does today. We are saved through faith by gods grace and may god fill us with truth as we seek him.

Steve, if a Christian was baptized, like the Anabaptists, using the name , father, son and holy ghost and then he learns a few weeks later that they should have baptized in Jesus name, then should this believer and convert go out and rebaptism???

I say no, but I figure you would say yes? is that right?

The result? The hunters come snaking out of their holes to brand us a cult, but what can we do? What we do is respond with the anointed truth-filled Word of God and stand firmly on what it says concerning original apostolic salvation, regardless of the opposition by "mainstream Christianity."

These are the things that cause me to brand the UPC as a cult.

They teach there believers that they are the only truth and that they can not go to any other church and be in gods house because gods house is the UPC.
They say they are the only truth and there is no salvation unless we receive what they are saying and join them. If another Christian rejects the UPC and there doctrine, they are rejecting salvation

These are binding doctrines that are used by cults to bind there believers in bondage. I see it across the board were cults are concerned.

I have the right to call the UPC a cult because I came out from the UPC and I know I came out from under a CULT and had to be rehabilitated as a Christian along with my wife and children. My wife was a mess as a result of what the UPC movement had done to her. She still despises the UPC for there arrogance and ignorance although I have long gotten over it. The difference between her and myself is that I was born again into the UPC from atheism but my wife was born again into another Christian church and loved the lord dearly and had a wonderful relationship with him until she got involved in the UPC through a revelation of baptism in Jesus name and by the time they had finished with her, she was totally shipwrecked. It took years for her to trust Christians again and it is still hard for her to take any one seriously that starts to claim they have the only truth.\

Be very careful Steve because I have been around the block with these guys and you are in a dangerous movement friend. Make shore you continue to put your faith in god before there doctrines mate. You know god, I can see that, so, remember whom you serve because you may need that advise in the future.

Now concerning torn churches - it is quite unfortunate. Again, your experience does not represent the rest of the members of the United Pentecostal Church in any form. I am appalled at such behavior within the Apostolic church. Your experience should not however give you a catalyst to go congregating with people who have not been born again as scripture clearly instructs. Compromising what you know to be true is not worth the favor of "mainstream Christianity."

I havent compromised anything, I congregate with my Christian brothers, it seems I have a fuller revelation that you and you may soon see it Steve because I can agree with some of the doctrine and yet, I dont see any need or reason for this kind of foolish segregation that the UPC is so well known for. This is another sign of a cult mate.

Our hearts lie to us. Don't let yours lie to you about you think is saved. Scripture is the authority on what "saved" is defined as, not you or latter-day denominations.

Ditto Steve, dont let your heart lie to you mate because we now the sons of god by the spirit of god not by there doctrines??? The UPC live the lie mate, they live the lie that they are the only truth and therefore the saved arent saved. Wake up and smell the roses mate, I have been exactly were you are at, my wife has also, my best mate and best man have also been right were you are today and we are all in our 30s now and laugh at our own stupidity in the days of the UPC. Steve, we have been were you are at and none of us are foolish enough to return to that because we have gone on in god not back

we have left that cult behind and gone on to a greater walk and personal relationship in god that the UPC tried to destroy in us all.

I been there , I am qualified to know and I predict that with in 5 years, you will be speaking as I am today, after god calls you out from her and proves that she is not the only truth , he is the only truth and our walk is with our father in the heavens through our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. And we do this through the holy ghost given to us when we gave our heart and life to Jesus Christ our king and lord, our god.

Crusader · Aug 4, 2003

I have NEVER encountered an anti-trinitarian who could accurately and truthfully describe the Trinity as believed by the church.

Hi Sheppard, I am anti-trinitarian mate.

Hears my take on the whole subject. call me a heratic if you wish but this is not with out great study and lots of prayer to god. I have been through the mill over the godhead as an ex-UPC member and a Christian, so, this is not without much reserch.

so, hears my take on things sheppard.

The son of man was the fullness of the godhead in one place at one time because he was a man and he had the father indwelling , like we all do, because he is the father of life whom is in us all and of all and through all things and that man was filled with the holy ghost. So, Jesus was the father and the son and the holy ghost in one place at one time, the fullness of the godhead dwelling bodily.
This is why Jesus said, go and baptise in the name of the father and son and holy ghost and yet the apostles baptised in the name of Jesus Christ every single time. So, Jesus was referring to himself when saying it and the apostles knew that because they baptised in his name about 8 times in scripture and never once in the words father, son and holy ghost.( Acts 2:38)

When the scriptures separate them by saying Jesus and god, I believe it is speaking about the separation of the image of god (son) from the omnipresence of god (father).
When we pray, we pray to the father of life and draw our life from him and we do that in the name of Jesus Christ through the holy ghost. These are three manifestations that make up the one god. There isnt two or even three persons in heaven called god 1 and god 2 and god 3 but rather these 3 are 1 and there is only one person and that is Jesus the son of god.
To me, the son of god is the image of the invisible god, the father. The Father is the omnipresent god who is off all things, he is a spirit and omnipresent (every were at one time).
The son of god was the first created being in all existence and he was the express image of the omnipresent father. The son of god came in flesh and became the son of man. Jesus always called himself the son of man, not the son of god , because he was all man and yet he remained god or the angel of the lord or the image of the father spirit.

Jesus was the first and the last, the beginning of god story and the end of it. The father spirit created for himself a body and through that body, he had words and with those words he created all things, there wasnt anything that was created that wasnt created through the son and by the son and it was all created for the son and the son is the fathers image or soul to me, he is the express image of the omnipresent god.
Now, what separates them is that the son is the personification and the father has no personification, he is omni present which is to say he is everywhere. now, the holy ghost is the character, attitude and spirit of god and that spirit is Jesuss spirit and the fathers spirit and both are one. The fruit of the holy ghost produces gods spirit of love, peace, joy and so on.

I will now show some scripture to show why I believe this. I know that when you read them it will still split the son from the father but I am trying to show that the only difference is that the son is the image of the omni present spirit of the father whom is everywhere, so they are separate but they are the same. I seem to believe that the man Christ prayed to the father to show us how to call on and draw from the spirit of life which is the father of us all. The two are one and yet they are still two. Not two persons but one person in two forms, one drawing from the other. The father is Jesus life force just as he is ours and yet , Jesus is the father.
When the end comes, because Jesus is the beginning and the end, Jesus will hand it all back to the father spirit and they two will become one again and we will know god as he is and he will dwell with us as he is , which is in his omnipresent spiritual form as our father.

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

JOHN 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared {him}.

Colossians 1

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

ISAIAH 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I {am} the Lord that maketh all {things}; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

. .

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

JOHN 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 JOHN 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 TIMOTHY 1:17 . . . the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, . . .

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 4
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

JOHN 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am

MALACHI 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? .

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

.

Crusader · Aug 4, 2003

I believe that Baptism has everything to do with salvation. Scripture is very clear in my opinion that it is both the blood and the water that has to do with salvation

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 John 5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world
John 3
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We (john the Baptist and Jesus) speak that we (john the Baptist and Jesus) do know, and testify that we (john the Baptist and Jesus) have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

WATER BAPTISIM
Hear is what Justin Martyr has to say about baptism;

Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism.
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above;128 he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."129
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01...6.htm#TopOfPage
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

HesMyAll · Aug 4, 2003

Crusader, I for one know exactly what you are talking about. Attending the UPC church I did was like a prison sentence. If for some reason you couldn't make it to church, you HAD BETTER call the pastor and tell him why. If you didn't you were sure to get a good long lecture. I spent four years putting up with such nonsense. If one of my children was sick and I stayed home to take care of them, you could feel the frost on the walls when you attended the next service. They literally tried to control every aspect of my life. They even tried to get me to divorce my husband. I have never met people who more mean spirited than the ones I came into contact with in the UPC.

It took me years to get beyond my UPC experience. Your wife has my sympathy and my prayers.

Crusader · Aug 4, 2003

Hi Hesmyall, I can totally relate to what you have said , I read it to my wife and she said to say thank you. She said it brings back memories

When I first Joined the UPC I had only just met the lord. I didnt meet the lord through the UPC. I met the lord through faith over a few years and then gave my heart to Jesus in my room one Easter, after watching Easter shows on T.V. when I was still single. I then rang a friend who I knew as a child and was a Christian and asked what to do. He asked me to come and stay with him and my walk with Jesus started there. A few weeks later, when I wanted to be baptized, at the church of Christ, were my friend took me, the pastor forgot to turn up to the appointment and that really put me off, so, my mate took me to a man they called the bishop who emphasized baptism (UPC) because I was hungry to be baptized. He said he would baptize me and I was entranced by this individuals knowledge of the scriptures and god, so I went to the service on Sunday and it turns out that it was a UPC church, although I knew nothing of what that meant at that time. I was taken up by the commitment of these people to god because I had just given my heart to Jesus and had surrendered my life to him and there commitment attracted me to them.

I got baptized in Jesus name and within weeks, I was asked to move out from my friends house, because he was a mainstream Christian and to move into a community brother house, were the bishop himself lived with about 3 other brothers. From that time on, I was fully controlled.

Hear is a few of my experiences although I saw and watched others go through far worse.
My sisters 21st birthday came around and I had to ask the pastor if it was ok for me to attend and I was told NO I am not to attend.
I went anyway, the god of my convictions would have been disgusted in me if I didnt. I then went to church and went to the front and testified to how much god used me as a witness through me attending my sisters 21st because my whole family got to see my born again life , as I has come out of a very bad life style. My sisters and her friends and my friends also got to see me for the first time in a couple of months because I had been segregated, by there influence and my commitment to the UPC and god. I was then rebuked on my way back to my seat and told that next time I will be a better witness by listening to council and not attending at all.

I started to see holes in it when they started to control every aspect of my life. I had a great job as a driver at the time but I am a carpenter by trade and one of the brothers ran a carpentry business. The bishop decided that I should quite my job as a courier driver to go work with this brother because I should be doing my trade because it earned me twice the money. I didnt want to do this because I loved my driving job because I got hours of bible reading and prayer in when I was driving and I hate my trade. Any ways, after much debate with this brother, I was told I was needed and needed tomorrow, so , I quite my driving job that my father got me and they asked me to give a weeks notice but I was pushed into leaving on the spot. I know I have my own decisions and it is my own fault but I was newly born again and had surrendered to Jesus a lot of my will at this time. The UPC abused that vulnerability terribly and destroyed my first love and trust I found in god through Jesus Christ.

The first day back at working in my trade with this brother and I was so frustrated that I threw my hammer and swore and the brother that had done all the pushing and shoving to get me into this situation turned to me and said, you cant be a true born again Christian because your sins should be in remission and therefore the old you is gone, so, you shouldnt even be able to swear.

I walked of and saw red, I can tell you.
I still didnt wake up for many months and many more of there corrupting experiences from being in the UPC. I only got out because the whole thing came crashing down, although there is still a segment of them still doing there thing.

One other situation that destroyed my earlier faith and love for god was when it was time for me to face the music for my past. About 3 months into living in a UPC house, the police came around and took me and locked me up to pay for my past. That was ok, I had god and they let me have a bible, I needed nothing else, but when they let me out of prison and I returned home, to the UPC house, my stuff was all put out in the weather on the front verge,. I couldnt believe it, I was not welcome there anymore. I cried that day and I will never forget that I did it on my own, not just the sentence, but my conversion , my commitment and my whole surrender was all for a love I had for god, I gave up all my friends and in return, the church turned there back on me.

Hesmyall, I am shore you can relate to this.

Steve, this is just a few things mate, I could go on for ever.

scuba_steve83 · Aug 5, 2003

Crusader said:
Hi Hesmyall, I can totally relate to what you have said , I read it to my wife and she said to say thank you. She said it brings back memories

When I first Joined the UPC I had only just met the lord. I didnt meet the lord through the UPC. I met the lord through faith over a few years and then gave my heart to Jesus in my room one Easter, after watching Easter shows on T.V. when I was still single. I then rang a friend who I knew as a child and was a Christian and asked what to do. He asked me to come and stay with him and my walk with Jesus started there. A few weeks later, when I wanted to be baptized, at the church of Christ, were my friend took me, the pastor forgot to turn up to the appointment and that really put me off, so, my mate took me to a man they called the bishop who emphasized baptism (UPC) because I was hungry to be baptized. He said he would baptize me and I was entranced by this individuals knowledge of the scriptures and god, so I went to the service on Sunday and it turns out that it was a UPC church, although I knew nothing of what that meant at that time. I was taken up by the commitment of these people to god because I had just given my heart to Jesus and had surrendered my life to him and there commitment attracted me to them.

I got baptized in Jesus name and within weeks, I was asked to move out from my friends house, because he was a mainstream Christian and to move into a community brother house, were the bishop himself lived with about 3 other brothers. From that time on, I was fully controlled.

Hear is a few of my experiences although I saw and watched others go through far worse.
My sisters 21st birthday came around and I had to ask the pastor if it was ok for me to attend and I was told NO I am not to attend.
I went anyway, the god of my convictions would have been disgusted in me if I didnt. I then went to church and went to the front and testified to how much god used me as a witness through me attending my sisters 21st because my whole family got to see my born again life , as I has come out of a very bad life style. My sisters and her friends and my friends also got to see me for the first time in a couple of months because I had been segregated, by there influence and my commitment to the UPC and god. I was then rebuked on my way back to my seat and told that next time I will be a better witness by listening to council and not attending at all.

I started to see holes in it when they started to control every aspect of my life. I had a great job as a driver at the time but I am a carpenter by trade and one of the brothers ran a carpentry business. The bishop decided that I should quite my job as a courier driver to go work with this brother because I should be doing my trade because it earned me twice the money. I didnt want to do this because I loved my driving job because I got hours of bible reading and prayer in when I was driving and I hate my trade. Any ways, after much debate with this brother, I was told I was needed and needed tomorrow, so , I quite my driving job that my father got me and they asked me to give a weeks notice but I was pushed into leaving on the spot. I know I have my own decisions and it is my own fault but I was newly born again and had surrendered to Jesus a lot of my will at this time. The UPC abused that vulnerability terribly and destroyed my first love and trust I found in god through Jesus Christ.

The first day back at working in my trade with this brother and I was so frustrated that I threw my hammer and swore and the brother that had done all the pushing and shoving to get me into this situation turned to me and said, you cant be a true born again Christian because your sins should be in remission and therefore the old you is gone, so, you shouldnt even be able to swear.

I walked of and saw red, I can tell you.
I still didnt wake up for many months and many more of there corrupting experiences from being in the UPC. I only got out because the whole thing came crashing down, although there is still a segment of them still doing there thing.

One other situation that destroyed my earlier faith and love for god was when it was time for me to face the music for my past. About 3 months into living in a UPC house, the police came around and took me and locked me up to pay for my past. That was ok, I had god and they let me have a bible, I needed nothing else, but when they let me out of prison and I returned home, to the UPC house, my stuff was all put out in the weather on the front verge,. I couldnt believe it, I was not welcome there anymore. I cried that day and I will never forget that I did it on my own, not just the sentence, but my conversion , my commitment and my whole surrender was all for a love I had for god, I gave up all my friends and in return, the church turned there back on me.

Hesmyall, I am shore you can relate to this.

Steve, this is just a few things mate, I could go on for ever.

It's absolutely heart breaking to read your experiences, but again I cannot emphasize enough that a handful of United Pentecostal Churches does not make all the others the same. My pastor runs a church not like the ones you and someone else in the thread describes. I thank God I am in a place where conviction is preached and not rules with conditional love as a punishment for not obeying.

God will justly judge the over-zealous and uncharitible members of the UPC, but as for the rest of us who believe as you do concerning personal conviction and unconditional love, I know I am in the right place. I don't think I will be going anywhere anytime soon. I will agree with you on another point -- I do feel United Pentecostal Churches like the ones you described and the ones I've heard about are cult-like when it comes to trying to dictate your life. I also agree that doctrine is no good if it is valued over love and grace in faith. That does not lessen the importance of doctrine in my eyes however. I believe there ought to be a fair balance of both. Everything ought to be in love: doctrine, prayer, giving, conversation, attitudes, etc. Doctrine is not the reason someone changes and follows standards. It's conviction from the doctrine and even prayer without the doctrine that gives us holiness.

I can certainly testify of such. I came to God with a contrite heart and a broken spirit like scripture says that God will not turn away before even reading those passages. I can also testify that God gave me conviction not to love the things of this world without having doctrine preached to me that the love of the Father not being in me if I were to love the things of the world.

Your posts have fulfilled a purpose by the way. My eyes have been opened up, but not to your opinion that the United Pentecostal Church is a cult. What your posts have revealed to me is that two people I consider friends in the Apostolic church are in bondage in doctrine that drove you away from the UPC. I thought about how much I disliked Jason and Holly's (the two friends) judgemental attitudes towards those not following standards as they see fit, but I never thought I would think on it to the point to where I recongized that they are being robbed of the best part of their fellowship with God: love and forgiveness. I do not like to admit to myself that they brainwashed me to some degree to believe doctrine concerning standards are of high priority. Even to this day those ideas are engraved in my head and it hurts to remember such ideas. It does feel like bondage, but please understand the United Pentecostal Church I attend did not bring that bondage upon me. I defend my pastor's church with much vigor because he really does preach and teach falling in love with Jesus and letting His Spirit give you conviction as you explore His word. He does not carry the attitude that we're the only ones who are right as the United Pentecostal Churches you describe do.

I cannot thank you enough. I really feel like God has used you in helping me to be loosed from bondage that only took two people to create within me. After the previous sentence you just read, I paused typing this reply to pray upon on the revealation of the bonage instilled by my friends. I also want to thank you for supporting the doctrines I speak of concerning salvation. I have given up on talking to OldShepard. He is not the first Baptist I have encountered who gave off uncharitible vibes, and that's a major feat considering his words are just text. He denies pagan trinities of old and ignored the scriptures I gave that support the Jew's worshipping one person as one God and that one God crediting Himself as one person as creator of all things.

The most important issue to me is not that people contend the UPC being a cult based on standards or unloving ministers and church family, but the fact that the UPC and Apostolic churches alike practice what Jesus taught His apostles to preach. Those in the days of the apostles did not need a Nicene Creed to decide who is a "real Christian" and neither do I. They had salvation to qualify them as "real Christians," salvation given through repentance, baptism in Jesus' name, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. That's what makes me saved; faithfully obeying the God-given commands of our Lord's gospel.

Apparently that's not good enough for some people. Apparently I have to believe in a creed not of the scriptures to be considered a "real Christian." My salvation that matches those in Acts is not revelant at all as it seems to certain people. Let me ask you something, Crusader. Do you think I am not saved?

In grace,
Stephen

OldShepherd · Aug 5, 2003

Crusader said:
Hi Sheppard, I am anti-trinitarian mate.

Hears my take on the whole subject. call me a heratic if you wish but this is not with out great study and lots of prayer to god. I have been through the mill over the godhead as an ex-UPC member and a Christian, so, this is not without much reserch.

So, Jesus was the father and the son and the holy ghost in one place at one time, the fullness of the godhead dwelling bodily.
This is why Jesus said,” go and baptise in the “name” of the father and son and holy ghost” and yet the apostles baptised in the name of Jesus Christ every single time. So, Jesus was referring to himself when saying it and the apostles knew that because they baptised in his name about 8 times in scripture and never once in the “words” father, son and holy ghost.( Acts 2:38)

[size=+1]That is a misinterpretation of what Jesus said. Jesus was not speaking English, so English rules of grammar do not apply. "Oneness" believers, will not believe or accept this but the rule in Greek is, when singular nouns, which are not proper names, are joined with the copulative, "kai"/"and," and the nouns each have the definite article then they are referring to separate somethings.

So according to the rules of Greek grammar what Jesus actually said was, "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and [in the name] of the Son, and [in the name] of the Holy Ghost"

And then we must recognize that in both the OT and the NT, "name" also means authority. For example, David told Goliath, "I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts." David's name was NOT[/size] יהוה. [size=+1]David meant he came in the power and authority of the name of God.

And OBTW the word "oneness" like "Trinity" is NOT found in the Bible. Neither is the word "Bible."[/size]

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

"the apostles baptised in the name of Jesus Christ every single time." [size=+1]Is that a fact? Please show me one verse in the NT which describes an actual baptism and the exact words spoken. In those eight references to baptism, you mentioned, I think you will find, at least, 4 different verbal formulas, "Jesus Christ," Ro 6:3; "Christ," Ga 3:27; "Lord Jesus," Ac 8:15; "Lord," Ac 11:16.

So I guess, according to "Oneness" teaching, if a person is baptized in any one of these four they are saved. But, if they are baptized using the exact, literal, words that Jesus Christ Himself spoke, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," they are not saved.

Also how many mentions of someone being baptized in the NT and NO mention of any words spoken? The Ethiopian eunuch, for example.[/size]

These are three manifestations that make up the one god.

[size=+1]Please show me any verse in the entire Bible where "manifestation" is used referring to God or the Holy Spirit?[/size]

There isn’t two or even three persons in heaven called god 1 and god 2 and god 3 but rather these 3 are 1 and there is only one person and that is Jesus the son of god.

[size=+1]If it is not too much trouble please look up the meaning and definition of "Trinity," as taught by the church for the past 2000 years, before trying to discuss it with me. I am not interested in talking about the "Oneness" perversion, what they think the Trinity is. You are only proving what I said before, I have NEVER encountered an anti-Trinitarian who can accurately and correctly state what the Trinity is, as believed by the church. It is ALWAYS something twisted, and distorted. And I have been around for a bunch of decades.[/size]

Ex 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD [יהוה] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [יהוה/YHWH] is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

[size=+1]If Jesus is God's name now, how do we understand this verse? I believe that we are one of those "all" generations.[/size] יהוה [size=+1] or Jesus?[/size]

OldShepherd · Aug 5, 2003

Crusader said:
I believe that Baptism has everything to do with salvation. Scripture is very clear in my opinion that it is both the blood and the water that has to do with salvation

WATER BAPTISIM
Hear is what Justin Martyr has to say about baptism;

[size=+1]Let's hear from some additional early church fathers, including more from Justin.[/size]

The First Apology of Justin

Chapter LXV.-Administration of the Sacraments.
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967

And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God's mercy; and all men may equally obtain it.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

The Epistle of Ignatius [disciple of John] to the Trallians

Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for "he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God."9 Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop. And be ye subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall be found in Him. It behoves you also, in every way, to please the deacons, who are [ministers] of the mysteries of Christ Jesus; for they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would a burning fire. Let them, then, prove themselves to be such.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-18.htm#P1604_276864

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.]

Further release from evils is the beginning of salvation. We then alone, who first have touched the confines of life, are already perfect; and we already live who are separated from death. Salvation, accordingly, is the following of Christ: "For that which is in Him is life.52 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My words, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into condemnation, but hath passed from death to life."53 Thus believing alone, and regeneration, is perfection in life; for God is never weak. For as His will is work, and this54 is named the world; so also His counsel is the salvation of men, and this has been called the church[/I]. He knows, therefore, whom He has called, and whom He has saved; and at one and the same time He called and saved them. "For ye are," says the apostle, "taught of God."55 It is not then allowable to think of what is taught by Him as imperfect; and what is learned from Him is the eternal salvation of the eternal Saviour, to whom be thanks for ever and ever. Amen. And he who is only regenerated-as the name necessarily indicates-and is enlightened, is delivered forthwith from darkness, and on the instant receives the light.

For what ignorance has bound ill, is by knowledge loosed well; those bonds are with all speed slackened by human faith and divine grace, our transgressions being taken away by one Poeonian62 medicine, the baptism of the Word. We are washed from all our sins, and are no longer entangled in evil. This is the one grace of illumination, that our characters are not the same as before our washing. And since knowledge springs up with illumination, shedding its beams around the mind, the moment we hear, we who were untaught become disciples. Does this, I ask, take place on the advent of this instruction? You cannot tell the time. For instruction leads to faith, and faith with baptism is trained by the Holy Spirit. For that faith is the one universal salvation of humanity, and that there is the same equality before the righteous and loving God, and the same fellowship between Him and all, the apostle most clearly showed, speaking to the following effect: "Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed, so that the law became our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith; but after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."63 Do you not hear that we are no longer under that law which was accompanied with fear, but under the Word, the master of free choice? Then he subjoined the utterance, clear of all partiality: "For ye are all the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-52.htm#P3288_976824

The Epistle of Polycarp [disciple of John] to the Philippians1

In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; "6 into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not of works,"7 but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-11.htm#P770_145457

The first Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us; let us esteem those who have the rule over us;90 let us honour the aged91 among us; let us train up the young men in the fear of God; let us direct our wives to that which is good. Let them exhibit the lovely habit of purity [in all their conduct]; let them show forth the sincere disposition of meekness; let them make manifest the command which they have of their tongue, by their manner92 of speaking; let them display their love, not by preferring93 one to another, but by showing equal affection to all that piously fear God. Let your children be partakers of true Christian training; let them learn of how great avail humility is with God-how much the spirit of pure affection can prevail with Him-how excellent and great His fear is, and how it saves all those who walk in94 it with a pure mind. For He is a Searcher of the thoughts and desires [of the heart]: His breath is in us; and when He pleases, He will take it away.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-05.htm#P171_20841

Cyprian Epistle LXXI.1 To Stephen, Concerning a Council.

when they come to us and to the Church which is one, ought to be baptized, for the reason that it is a small matter2 to "lay hands on them that they may receive the Holy Ghost," unless they receive also the baptism of the Church. For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament;3 since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."4 For we find also, in the Acts of the Apostles, that this is maintained by the apostles, and kept in the truth of the saving faith, so that when, in the house of Cornelius the centurion, the Holy Ghost had descended upon the Gentiles who were there, fervent in the warmth of their faith, and believing in the Lord with their whole heart; and when, filled with the Spirit, they blessed God in divers tongues, still none the less the blessed Apostle Peter, mindful of the divine precept and the Gospel, commanded that those same men should be baptized who had already been filled with the Holy Spirit, that nothing might seem to be neglected to the observance by the apostolic instruction in all things of the law of the divine precept and Gospel.5

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-96.htm#P6247_1976812

OldShepherd · Aug 5, 2003

scuba_steve83 said:
I have given up on talking to OldShepard. He is not the first Baptist I have encountered who gave off uncharitible vibes, and that's a major feat considering his words are just text. He denies pagan trinities of old and ignored the scriptures I gave that support the Jew's worshipping one person as one God and that one God crediting Himself as one person as creator of all things.

[size=+1]Of course I denied pagan trinities because it is false information with no basis in fact or history. You did NOT produce one single bit of proof for any so-called pagan trinities. Produce some historical evidence if you can, and I don't mean quote something Bernard or some other "Oneness" writer put in a book. I mean historical information from the period in question, 100 BC through 300 AD, at least. You cannot do it because there isn't any. NOT one single pagan trinity in all of North Africa, Greece, Roman empire, Asia, or the middle east.[/size]

"and ignored the scriptures I gave that support the Jew's worshipping one person as one God and that one God crediting Himself as one person as creator of all things." [size=+1]This is deliberate false witness. I have NOT ignored any scriptures you have posted. None of the scriptures you posted were irrelevant to anything I have said. I can answer anything you post and you don't like it because I can and have. It makes it even easier since you are mostly quoting Bernard's baloney, without checking anything out for yourself.[/size]

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