Two Raptures, Three Resurrections...More???

The "order" spoken of here is the Greek "tagma," a military term referring to the order of a march, not an order of events. The resurrection is a singular event or, more accurately, a singular Person, Jesus Christ, who embodies it. His resurrection cannot be taken as an isolated incident. It is not merely an historical benchmark, but the fulfillment of all of history taking place in the midst of history. In rising from the dead, Christ conquered death for all time. "At his coming" (or "in his presence"), what Christ accomplished in his resurrection will be realized throughout all creation.

We needn't complicate things by reading into the Scriptures events and timetables which simply aren't there.

nagantmosin writes: "Sincere and thoughtful replies only, please."

Isn't it significant that the twenty-four elders appear in heaven immediately after what many interpret to be the point of removal of the Church from the earth (Rev. 4:1). These are they who, according to their song (Rev 5:9-10), are from the earth, from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation who have been redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. If this is not the Church, what is their indentification? Being of every nation, it couldn't be Israel, nor have the tribulation saints begun to be as yet (Rev. 7:14).

Those who contend that the Church passes into or through the tribulation have to identify the twenty-four elders, and also have to show where in Revelation the removal of the Church takes place after (Rev. 4:1). Scripture indicates (Rev. 19:7-9) that the Church is in heaven for the marriage supper and is there before the Lord returns in power and glory; but you won't find any passage subsequent to (Rev. 4:1) relative to her removal from the earth.

nagantmosin writes: "1.) Some living christians will be "caught up" to God's presence because they will be considered holy enough by the Lord to not be sentenced to go through the Great Tribulation."

Christians attain immediately by faith unto a standing as perfect as that of Christ, which standing is secured by a spiritual birth and all the saving operations of God which go along with it. Through the regenerating work of the Spirit they have Christ begotten in them (Col. 1:27), and receive the divine nature which is eternal life (Rom. 6:23). They are forgiven all trespasses to such a degree that they will never come into condemnation (Col. 2:13; John 3:18; Rom. 8:1), and are justified forever (Rom. 3:21-5:11). By the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit they are "joined to the Lord" (Rom. 6:1-7; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27) and, being in Christ their standing before God is no less than the perfection of Christ in whom they are accepted (2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 1:6).

Christians are already constituted citizens of heaven (Phil. 3:20). These blessings are not only as exalted and spiritual as heaven itself and eternal, but they are secured apart from human merit at the instant one believes on Christ to the saving of their soul.

How could any Christian,through their own merit, attain a position more holy than they already have in Christ?

In Christ,
Tracey

Just my thoughts...

If the wrath of God doesn't start at the beginning of the tribulation what's the point for God to rapture only "some" of his church at this time?

I see the tribulation as being the last week of Daniels prophesy. During the first 3 1/2 years of this 7 year period I see no evidence of the wrath of God upon the people of the earth. I have stated that I believe when the wrath of God commences God will first take the church out for the wrath of God is not appointed for us, the righteous. The events that will lead up to the "Awful Horror" I don't see as the wrath of God nor do I see the events dirrectly afterward as the wrath of God. Therefore I see no reason nor do I read any evidence within scripture saying that God will rapture his church before the tribulation.

I don't see anything written here in this thread that should convince me that I am wrong although I don't consider myself spiritualy discerned about this because I am willing to hear anyone out on what their beliefs are.

The trails and persecutions that may make our way during the first half of the tribulation will be hard on us but so what? The first christians of the first and second centuries had it pretty tough. I mean they were brutely and savagely treated but were any of them raptured out of their situation? Why should we expect to be?

Scripturaly we are not appointed for the wrath of God be we are to the wrath of the Devil.

nephilimiyr said:

Just my thoughts...

If the wrath of God doesn't start at the beginning of the tribulation what's the point for God to rapture only "some" of his church at this time?

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Thee church ....is one ....one body
1cor 12:12-31

But in the Old Testament there was Jews and Gentiles very seperate
this is why the tribulation is called Daniels 70th week period of Jews that started and stop for amount of time and then restarted

In Matt 25:31-40

is a good example 32 he shall gather all nations[gentiles] and he shall seperate them one from another

vs 35 talks about giving food and drink to this stranger

Vs 40 least of these my brethren[144,000], ye have done unto me.

see it ????? we will see

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

Thee church ....is one ....one body
1cor 12:12-31

But in the Old Testament there was Jews and Gentiles very seperate
this is why the tribulation is called Daniels 70th week period of Jews that started and stop for amount of time and then restarted

In Matt 25:31-40

is a good example 32 he shall gather all nations[gentiles] and he shall seperate them one from another

vs 35 talks about giving food and drink to this stranger

Vs 40 least of these my brethren[144,000], ye have done unto me.

see it ????? we will see

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If that's an attempt to answer my question I don't see your answer.

There are many churches but only one church in Christ.

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

Thee church ....is one ....one body
1cor 12:12-31

But in the Old Testament there was Jews and Gentiles very seperate
this is why the tribulation is called Daniels 70th week period of Jews that started and stop for amount of time and then restarted

In Matt 25:31-40

is a good example 32 he shall gather all nations[gentiles] and he shall seperate them one from another

vs 35 talks about giving food and drink to this stranger

Vs 40 least of these my brethren[144,000], ye have done unto me.

see it ????? we will see

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the church [aka body] is out of here during the tribulation that includes jews and Gentiles as during the tribulation the believers during that time will go in to the 1000 yr reign

Seem confusing? That is because it is incorrect. There is ONE rapture and resurrection - they are the same event at the end of mortal history.

Hi,

I would like to make an undocumented statement as well.

There will never be any rapture, the 'first' resurrection, the resurrection of the dead, the great white throne judgment, take place at/near the parousia.(after the great tribulation)

Those who are alive at the time of the parousia and those who physically die AFTER the parousia are blessed.

The total key is the timeframe of the great tribulation, which is just before the parousia.

No rapture, more than one time of raising the dead.

Scriptural proof available on request.

Justme

request given........... what scripture

can not wait for your proof

Call me dumb or call me whatever but what is the parousia?

Dee Dee Warren said:

Seem confusing? That is because it is incorrect. There is ONE rapture and resurrection - they are the same event at the end of mortal history.

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do you do distinctions from the bible ?

Jonah resurected yet died twice

and in Rev 20:11 the dead spiritually is resurected to be cast into lake of fire in vs14 which is the second death but I do not see believer here I think they were at the beama seat not the great white throne judgement. funny in REV 19:11 Christ second coming happens but in rev 19:7-10 while He is in heaven the who is the wife [the church] so how did they get there .......how bout who is the 24 elders in Rev 5:8

Hi Nephilimiyr,

Parousia is one of two words I know in greek. It means coming or presense. It appears in the bible only 24 times with one occurance being in Matthew 24:3. The coming of the son of man on the clouds.

Hi,

You asked for the scripture in regard to my post which included this:

The total key is the timeframe of the great tribulation, which is just before the parousia.

No rapture, more than one time of raising the dead.

Scriptural proof available on request.
*******************

If we knew the timeframe of the great tribulation we could include human logic in the interpretation of the word of God.

This resurrection stuff has been all over lately, but I'll repeat it here in case someone has missed it.

From the vision of John which, for the most part takes place in Heaven, we learn that there are some who are judging and sitting on thrones prior to the discussion of the resurrections.
Rev 20: 4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

The identity of these isn't clear from this chapter and not necessary for this discussion.
Those of the 'first' resurrection are:

(the rest of verse 4)
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These have no fear of the second death and will reign with Christ for 1000 years.Rev 20
.......The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

From Daniel 12 we learn that many who sleep in the dust, including Daniel himself(verse 13) will be raised to righteousness or condemned at or near the time of the great tribulation or time of distress that has never occurred before.

So we have people such as Daniel who are dead, who are not in Heaven, but simply sleep in the dust until the time of the great tribulation. However, Daniel 12 tells us there is a judgment involved because:
Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Because there is judgment involved there is danger of the second death, therefore none of those who sleep in the dust will reign for the 1000 years.

Also we know that Jesus alone judges:
John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

so we know that Jesus is present to do this judging.

Rev 20:5 tells us :
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

So now we know that all of this takes place in Heaven because:

1 Thess 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

So the 'first resurrection' Rev 20:4&6, is 1000 years ahead of the REST of the dead and they are BEFORE those who are alive at the coming. MOre than one resurrection.

The final stage is for those who physically DIE AFTER the coming of the son of man on the clouds.
Rev 14
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

This is said as John looked and saw the coming on the cloud. Blessed are those who DIE after that.

So now for the timing.

The above shows the resurrections in relation to the coming of the son of man.

The coming of the son of man occurs during the celestial display that follows the great tribulation immediately.
The great tribulation is in the same generation as the end of the ages and the coming of the son of man.

Hebrews 9
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the END OF THE AGES to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The KJV says it this way:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


So if there are signs that Jesus is coming physically to earth 'soon' those that reign in Heaven for the 1000 years would be there now. Of course, if we want to believe that 1000 year reign is on earth they would be HERE now as well. Since some or all of them are beheaded they would be easy to spot...well I guess the old is made new agin would apply, eh?

However, Hebrews 9:26 tells you the timing.



Justme

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

do you do distinctions from the bible ?

Jonah resurected yet died twice

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You don't make cases from exceptions. I have seen skeptics to do this. They claim an contradiction in Hebrews where it says it is appointed to man once to die and after that the judgment. As you say Jonah and Lazarus died twice, and Elijah and Enoch never died. You do not make cases out of exceptions.

and in Rev 20:11 the dead spiritually is resurected to be cast into lake of fire in vs14 which is the second death but I do not see believer here I think they were at the beama seat not the great white throne judgement. funny in REV 19:11 Christ second coming happens but in rev 19:7-10 while He is in heaven the who is the wife [the church] so how did they get there .......how bout who is the 24 elders in Rev 5:8

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Revelation cannot by hyperlitatlized,and Revelation 19 is not about the Second Coming specifically.

Originally posted by nagantmosin in Post #1:
...There are definitely two raptures...

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Does any scripture say that there will be a partial rapture of the church, or that there will be multiple raptures of the church, or that there will be multiple future comings of Jesus? Doesn't the Bible say that "all" the saved, dead and living, will be resurrected and raptured up to meet Jesus at a single point in time, at the last trump at the 2nd coming of Jesus? "We shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52); "We which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Doesn't the Bible speak of only one more coming of Jesus, and of only one gathering of the church up to Jesus, which will happen on only one day, the same day on which the Antichrist is destroyed? "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition... whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia)" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 8).

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Originally posted by duster1az in Post #2:
...the point of removal of the Church from the earth (Rev. 4:1)...

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Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn't at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

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Originally posted by duster1az in Post #2:
...These are they who, according to their song (Rev 5:9-10)...

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Note that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing they are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); compare this with Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." I believe the 24 elders are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God (Revelation 5:8-9)?

On what basis are the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 considered to be the church but all the Christians in Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, and 20:4 are not?

In the pre-trib view, where are all the other people in the church in Revelation 4-5? If there can be 100,000,000 angels mentioned about the throne (Revelation 5:11), why would only 24 church elders be mentioned?

Why aren't the elders at the marriage, or the supper that many say lasts the entire seven years? Do they miss the entire marriage and supper? For we see them repeatedly throughout the tribulation chapters (Revelation 7:11, 11:16, 14:3) and never is there any reference to either the marriage or the supper.

In the pre-trib view, how long before the tribulation must the rapture come in order that the judgment might be completed before the tribulation begins?

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Originally posted by duster1az in Post #2:
...the tribulation saints...

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Note that no scripture refers to "tribulation saints," for we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23) and the bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

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Originally posted by duster1az in Post #2:
...where in Revelation the removal of the Church takes place...

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Note that John doesn't mention the "gathering together" or "catching up" of the rapture in any of his writings, but in Revelation 19 he clearly shows Jesus coming. Both Jesus and Paul said the rapture will happen at Jesus' coming (Matthew 24:29-37, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:23), and there's no 3rd coming. Do some believe Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are different comings?

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Originally posted by duster1az in Post #2:
...Scripture indicates (Rev. 19:7-9) that the Church is in heaven for the marriage supper and is there before the Lord returns in power and glory...

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Note that while the Greek word "ouranos" (heaven) is sometimes used to refer to the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2) where God resides, it's also used to refer to the 1st heaven, the sky, where the clouds reside (Matthew 16:3, Revelation 11:6), or the air, where the birds fly (Matthew 6:26, Acts 11:6), and it's also used to refer to the 2nd heaven where the stars reside (Matthew 24:29, Revelation 6:13).

I believe that in Revelation 19:14, "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven".

I believe an important purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

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Originally posted by A Brethren IN CHRIST in Post #7:
...the church [aka body] is out of here during the tribulation...

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Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).