What is the holy mother church thinking??

Thanks for standing up for me Michelle, but Art saw where I was coming from. I meant what I said, I said what I meant and I will not budge on it.

People who call the teachings of the Church "stupid" and seemingly attempt to garner support to their position by threatening spiritual suicide need to go. Misery loves company, or so the adage goes, but if you want to be miserable and rail against the Church, go do it on your own.

These are the tactics of people who wish to secularize Catholicism, to bring Her out of the "dark ages" and "enlighten" Her. All at the expense of putting the souls of all those believers at risk.

I don't want that sort of stuff anywhere near me.

Just imagine if Paul and John, in their epistles, had said "Let us keep the gnostics amongst us, that we may minister to them" instead of telling the Church those people were anti-Christs and needed to be shunned.

Obviously I'm not saying that Sam is an anti-Christ, I usually until today, had great respect for his comments and positions, but seeking to secularize the Church is wrong. Drumming up support to it by threatening to leave the Church is also a foul move if you ask me. If you want to go, then go, but what other need is there to advertise it?

That's my opinion, I'm sticking to it.

I suppose I could have said "God be with you as you go upon your way." instead of what I actually said, but how could I bless someone that assaulted the Church with hateful comments, in addition to giving him a blessing that God would never condone?

People who commit grave sins cannot receive Holy Communion

Read the epistles of St. Paul. He had some rather strong words to say to those people who would not flee sexual immorality.

The whole idea behind excommunication is to make the sinner realize that he has cut himself off from the Church. Any person who commits a grave sin is no longer able to partake of Holy Communion. He is out of communion even if he is not actually excommunicated.

Perhaps it is sad that the Church today doesn't excommunicate people as frequently as she used to.

Maybe it's just me saimian, but you come across as Protestant(what with the talk of excommunicating Martin Luther.) Homosexuality is wrong, plain and simple. Therefore, why should the Church condone legal action to give gays rights? It makes perfect sense to me, why not you?

Dear Tribe: I like your quote from GK Chesterton.

Did you realize that Toleration is one of the hallmarks of Masonry?

So I guess it's good to follow the Ancient Path, which is straight and narrow! Sadly few will find it.

Even though Jesus Christ didn't specifically mention "homosexual practices" nor "abortion" both have been condemned as grave sins from the Church's beginning. She has not changed.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

samiam said:

The priest at the church I went to told me that nowhere did Jesus himself teach that homosexuality was wrong. Go ahead, try to find the chapter and verse where Jesus says that homosexuality is wrong.

Now, if my priest behaves like the people on this thread behave, I will not be going to mass ever again.

"Objective truth" indeed. About as objective as the earth being the center of the universe.

Is that Catholic Church one of love, or is it one of intolerance.

Based on the behavior of the people here, I have to conclude the church is one of intolerance.

If people like the people in this thread are the kinds of people who go to my parish, I will not go that parish ever again.

And, yes, I am straight, but not narrow. Unlike the rest of the people on this thread.

- Sam

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I don't think you understood your priest correctly or if you did then report him to the bishop because Jesus Christ upheld the mosaic law.

You know priest can be in error that is why the have bishops that they answer to.

Ah yes, moral relativism rears it's ugly head. I think everyone's answered well these issues.

I had a conversation with some "cafeteria Christians" lately and they were critical of the "Catholic Church's view of what sin is" and that floored me. You don't like it, start your own church where you feel good about yourself. Why not? It happens everyday!

These statements Sam makes (Gallileo?!? Do you even know what happened with him?) were just made out of ignorance.

Rather than trying to make God conform to YOUR image, why not trust an eternal morality of an unchanging God who loves you, and who "demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

samiam said:

"Objective truth" indeed. About as objective as the earth being the center of the universe.

Is that Catholic Church one of love, or is it one of intolerance.

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First of all, do you know Copernicus? He taught the heliocentric theory LONG before Galileo, was a devout Catholic BISHOP and and his findings (like Galileo's) were in no way in conflict with the Church's teaching. Why not do some homework on Galileo before you spout off at the mouth, please...

The Catholic Church is one of love:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

The Lord knows what is best for a person. He's not being a jerk to tell homosexuals not to be themselves, rather, He's looking out for their best interests. Do you know any openly gay people?

samiam said:

The priest at the church I went to told me that nowhere did Jesus himself teach that homosexuality was wrong. Go ahead, try to find the chapter and verse where Jesus says that homosexuality is wrong.

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Is being homosexual wrong? Yes and no. I acknowledge that some people may be born homosexual. I just don't know if someone would willing choose that. But that's an argument for another day. The Church teaches, as did Christ Himself, that we are to love one another. In its latest document, the Vatican re-iterates what it has been saying all along--that we are to love the homosexual and treat them with compassion and respect. Now, putting homosexuality into action, I believe it is a mortal sin just as the Church teaches. That is why the Church calls for homosexuals to remain chaste--just as much as it does unmarried heterosexuals.

Marriage is a Sacrament. Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, elevated marriage to a Sacrament. A brief examination of a Sacrament shows that sanctifying grace is conferred. The Sacrament itself does not confer the grace but rather it is God conferring the grace. The Sacrament is a visible sign of God. God is not going to bless something that Christ and His Apostles explicitly condemn.

Christ says that marriage is for a man and a woman. He does not say it is for man and man or woman and woman. St. Paul, in his epistles, condemns sexual immorality. And his epistles are the Word of God. And we know that the Church has the authority to loose and bind. Thus, in accordance with the teaching of Jesus Christ, The Vatcian has issued a document telling Catholic politicians that they must not support Gay Marriage as marriage is reserved for a man and a woman. Later, if you so wish, I can posts the verses, from both the Old and New Testaments, that explicitly condemn homosexual behavior.

What concerns me most is the document's statement that adoption of children by homosexuals is considered violence toward children. I suppose the church would rather children stay in orphanages or foster homes than be raised by people who love them. I am forgetting however, especially in light of recent events, that the welfare and safety of children has always been the foremost concern of the church. How much more hypocritical can the Vatican be than to allow sexual abuse of childeren to continue unabated and then feign concern over homosexual adoption.

dolltrash said:

How much more hypocritical can the Vatican be than to allow sexual abuse of childeren to continue unabated and then feign concern over homosexual adoption.

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Continue unabated?

Shelb5 said:

I don't think you understood your priest correctly or if you did then report him to the bishop because Jesus Christ upheld the mosaic law.

You know priest can be in error that is why the have bishops that they answer to.

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Dear Michelle:

Sam is just trying to inflame us. Look carefully at what he says:

samiam said:

The priest at the church I went to told me that nowhere did Jesus himself teach that homosexuality was wrong. Go ahead, try to find the chapter and verse where Jesus says that homosexuality is wrong.

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Sam is correct to say that Christ doesn't specifically mention "homosexuality" neither does he specifically mention "abortion". Before 1960, many priests also avoided those words in their sermons because children didn't understand those big adult words. Unfortunately, our little ones aren't as naive as they used to be. They lose their innocence so much earlier.

So Sam wants to send us on a goose chase! He's the silly goose!

We know differently. We know how God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their outrageous homosexual practices. And Jesus Christ is God. So Sam is playing with the Consuming Fire. That's being quite silly.

Yes Elizabeth that is why I do not think nyj was out of line with his comment. We don't need catholic like that in the Church.

Who was that Pope that said, we have enough of our own trying to bring us down to be worrying about those outside? Wasn't that quote to Napoleon?

Even Christ said that we will always have wolves among us. He never mentioned silly geese.

Let us be careful not to cast out someone who is struggling with a teaching of the Church. Rather, we should pray.

samiam said:

Is that Catholic Church one of love, or is it one of intolerance.

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Love of the sinner - ABSOLUTELY!
Intolerance to SIN - ABSOLUTELY!

Jesus came to conquer sin, NOT to accept and tolerate it!

samiam said:

What is the holy mother church thinking??

I have been going to mass every week for nearly a year now. I think I will be finding another church which is a little more tolerant this week.

- Sam

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Try the Episcopal but wait until they decide if an active homosexual can be Bishop. Would that be tolerant enough for you?

I think what nyj was meaning Art, is that if he wants to be the kind of Catholic that will cry every time he hears something he doesn't like, then we do not need that kind around, but if he wants to accept the Church as the authority, the mother that she is, then he is welcomed back.

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I understood as well, Michelle, but I was commenting on his choice of words he used to express his frustration. I made my point, I am sticking to it. nyj made his point as is sticking to his. There is no problem here anymore, so I do not know why others are jumping in now.

We are not one of those churches that are there to make the person feel good about himself at the coast of his soul, we are here to keep souls out of hell with our teachings on morals.

I think that the comment was worded wrong, but I understand what he meant by it.

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No we are not those churches. I understood very well what he meant too.

*Oh lord...*

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What does this mean? Didn't you get mad at Reformationist about making comments like these in his posts to you. he used to always type: "LOL!" and you called him on that.