Life from nonlife for Oholiab

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟32,309.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
In another thread Oholiab wrote:

"In laboratory experiments aimed at simulating conditions on a lifeless Earth, a messy mixture of amino acids can be formed, consisting of mostly glycine and d/l-alanine. Not all amino acids found in proteins can be synthesized in this manner, while many not used by living systems do result from these experiments. A product consisting of exclusively left-handed amino acids never results,"
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-313.htm

The real problem is that you need to go from molecules to amino acids, nucleotides carbohydrates and lipids. Then engineer RNA, DNA, and Lipid spheres before the first primordial cell is formed. The really tricky part is the nucleic acid sugars ribose and deoxyribose are asymetric (like a left hand and right hand). To make 150 years of trying to deal with this paradox (no pun intended) there are still only two myths fabricated to facilitate this: 1. Meterorites 2. Chirality spontaniously generated from molecules with the ability to replicate.

This is the most recent "gap" creationists try to put God into. God-of-the-gaps theology. The quote from ICR misstates the original Urey-Miller experiments. It ignores that there are lots of ways to get amino acids by different chemical reactions either on a primitive earth or on comets who can then dump the amino acids on earth.

12. MP Bernstein, SA Sandford, LF Allamandola, Life's far-flung raw materials. Scientific American 281: 42-49, July 1999. Astrochemistsshow that complex carbon compound, including amino acids, are present ininterstellar clouds.
15. J. P. Amend, E. L. Shock , Energetics of Amino Acid Synthesis in Hydrothermal Ecosystems, Science 281: 1659 - 1662 ,11 Sep 1998.

The first cell can be formed with just amino acids. When amino acids are heated the chemical reaction forms proteins. If the proteins are in the presence of water, they spontaneously form cells.
http://www.siu.edu/~protocell/
http://www.theharbinger.org/articles/rel_sci/fox.html

Now, the interesting thing about these cells (called protocells to distinguish them from modern cells) is that they metabolize (including a primitive photosynthesis), respond to stimuli (they have membrane action potentials just like nerve cells), grow, and reproduce.

What is more, the proteins formed are also catalysts and catalyze the synthesis of sugars, lipids, new proteins, and RNA/DNA.

The "tricky part" is chirality. You can understand this by taking 4 toothpicks of different colors and putting them equally spaced in an orange or apple. Then take a second piece of fruit and put the toothpicks in it as the mirror image of the first. Same chemical structure. But you will find that you can't line up the two fruits so that the colors of all the toothpicks match. One version is called D and the other L for molecules.

Now, in modern life MOST amino acids are L and MOST sugars are D. Not all. You don't need to have all L amino acids to make a functional protein and you don't need all D sugars to make a RNA or DNA helix.

So, how did life get this way over time? There are several processes, all of which were probably operating and contributing.

As noted, preferential destruction of D amino acids and L sugars on comets and meteorites would produce an initial overabundance of the L amino acids and D sugars:
R Irion, Did twisty starlight set stage for life? Science 281:626-627, Jul. 31, 1998. Polarized UV light from stars can selectively destroy either D amino acids, setting the stage for chirality. Primary article is J Bailey, A chrysostomous, JH Hough et al., Circular polarization in star-formation regions: implicactions for biomolecular homochirality. Science 281: 672-674, Jul. 31, 1998.

Supplementing this is that homochiral proteins and RNA/DNA formed by chemistry are more stable:
Z Naturforsch [C] 1997 Jan;52(1-2):89-96
Plural origins of molecular homochirality in our biota Part II. The relative
stabilities of homochiral and mixed oligoribotides and peptides. Having an L-ribose would terminate an growing D-ribose DNA chain. So only the D-ribose chain could grow, thus selecting for homochirality.

And yes, proteins that replicate do make homochiral offspring:
Nature 2001 Feb 15;409(6822):797-801 A chiroselective peptide replicator. Saghatelian A, Yokobayashi Y, Soltani K, Ghadiri MR.

"The origin of homochirality in living systems is often attributed to the generation of enantiomeric differences in a pool of chiral prebiotic molecules, but none of the possible physiochemical processes considered can produce the significant imbalance required if homochiral biopolymers are to result from simple coupling of suitable precursor molecules. This implies a central role either for additional processes that can selectively amplify an initially minute enantiomeric difference in the starting material, or for a nonenzymatic process by which biopolymers undergo chiroselective molecular replication. Given that molecular self-replication and the capacity for selection are necessary conditions for the emergence of life, chiroselective replication of biopolymers seems a particularly attractive process for explaining homochirality in nature. Here we report that a 32-residue peptide replicator, designed according to our earlier principles, is capable of efficiently amplifying homochiral products from a racemic mixture of peptide fragments through a chiroselective autocatalytic cycle. The chiroselective amplification process discriminates between structures possessing even single stereochemical mutations within otherwise homochiral sequences. Moreover, the system exhibits a dynamic stereochemical 'editing' function; in contrast to the previously observed error correction, it makes use of heterochiral sequences that arise through uncatalysed background reactions to catalyse the production of the homochiral product."

Not myths, but observations. The "experience" that Malthus said formed the basis of knowledge.
 

armed2010

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2003
3,331
136
36
California
✟4,182.00
Faith
Atheist
Politics
US-Others
Oholiab said:
Ok fine, my Biology 101 class and a couple of web pages hardly makes me well read on the microbiology verbage. I still think cells forming in some primodial soup is fantasy.

What a way to stay blind to the facts. He brings you comprehensive proof, and you just shove it aside and say "im ignorant of science, but I still dont believe what your saying!"
 
Upvote 0
Ive wadded through this kind of cryptic verbage and dumptruck semantics, its a waste of time. You didnt need a lexicon of biological terminology to understand my post. Im not going to use one for the reply. Ill tell you whats easy to understand, the point of this exercise is antitheistic satire, not science.
 
Upvote 0

Pete Harcoff

PeteAce - In memory of WinAce
Jun 30, 2002
8,304
71
✟9,874.00
Faith
Other Religion
Oholiab said:
Ive wadded through this kind of cryptic verbage and dumptruck semantics, its a waste of time. You didnt need a lexicon of biological terminology to understand my post. Im not going to use one for the reply. Ill tell you whats easy to understand, the point of this exercise is antitheistic satire, not science.

And this is exactly the type of behavior I was describing in my Are there any creationists willing to debate? thread. Tsk.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟32,309.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Oholiab said:
Ok fine, my Biology 101 class and a couple of web pages hardly makes me well read on the microbiology verbage. I still think cells forming in some primodial soup is fantasy.

How about in some tidal pool? Or cooking them up in your "lab" at home; using your kitchen for the lab? Or making them on a rock in you backyard on a hot summer's day?

The point is that cells HAVE BEEN MADE from non-living chemicals. Not fantasy. DONE. Not modern cells, but cells.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟32,309.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Oholiab said:
Ive wadded through this kind of cryptic verbage and dumptruck semantics, its a waste of time. You didnt need a lexicon of biological terminology to understand my post. Im not going to use one for the reply. Ill tell you whats easy to understand, the point of this exercise is antitheistic satire, not science.

The "cryptic verbage [sic]" came from the abstract of the article. I don't think "oranges" "toothpicks" and "mirror image" are biological terminology, which is how I explained chirality.

Look, Oholiab, if you don't understand something: ASK!!! I'll happily keep explaining it until you do.

Look, I have 2 choices:

1. Make things REALLY simple for you and perhaps insult you by talking beneath you.

2. Use the complicated terminology and have you not understand.

I choose to err on the side of #2. That doesn't mean I won't explain when you ask. ASK!!
 
Upvote 0

Patristic

Koine addict
Jul 10, 2003
833
57
44
Northeast
Visit site
✟16,261.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Interesting material, but I have a few observations. The entities that were fabricated in the lab were not called protocells, but proteinoids; Atleast that is what they were called in the material I read. Furthermore, in his book the myth of creationism, Dr. Tim Berra, asked one of the scientists who studied these proteinoids if they were in fact alive. The scientist hesitated to call them alive becuase they could not reproduce, either through meioisis or mitosis, and there were also a far cry from what constitutes a cell by our standards.

The most well known scientist who constructed proteinoid structures in a lab was Dr. Sydney Fox. Yet, Fox has to admit that he did not start from the results of they Miller-Urey experiment. In other words, he did not use the amino acids formed in that experiment in his intial test. Instead he used pure amino acids from living organisims. The experiment should have started from where the Miller-Urey experiment ended, but no one has even attempted to use the useless amino acids obtained in that experiment. Furthermore, these organisms were created under heating conditions that did not exist at all on the primordial earth.

Finally, there is no chance that these abnormal chains of amino acids strung together could have survived the primordial earth's harsh conditions. Exposure to harmful ultraviolet radiation and other effects would have caused them to break down, and they could not have formed under water in the primordial soup because of the Le Chaltier principle, because no ultraviolet radiation would have reached them.

This is a nice attempt by scientists to say they have created cells in the lab, but what they really created was a useless string of random amino acids that resulted in abiotic entity dubbed the proteinoid.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GJG

Active Member
Jul 16, 2003
272
1
✟412.00
lucaspa said:
How about in some tidal pool? Or cooking them up in your "lab" at home; using your kitchen for the lab? Or making them on a rock in you backyard on a hot summer's day?

The point is that cells HAVE BEEN MADE from non-living chemicals. Not fantasy. DONE. Not modern cells, but cells.


Are these so called 'life creating processes' performed in a truly perfectly sterile environment?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟32,309.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
GJG said:
Are these so called 'life creating processes' performed in a truly perfectly sterile environment?

Yes. No pre-existing life present.

Snyder WD and Fox, SW. A model for the origin of stable protocells in a primitive alkaline ocean. BioSystems 7: 222-229, 1975.
Rohlfing, DL. Thermal polyamino acids: synthesis at less than 100°C. Science 193: 68-70, 1976.
Syren RM, Sanjur A, Fox SW Proteinoid microspheres more stable in hot than in cold water. Biosystems 1985;17(4):275-80 (protocells at hydrothermal vents)
Yanagawa, H. and K. Kobayashi. 1992. An experimental approach to chemical evolution in submarine hydrothermal. systems. Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere 22: 147-159.
Marshall, W. H. 1994. Hydrothermal synthesis of amino acids. Goechimica et Cosmochimica Acta 58: 2099-2106.
McAlhaney WW, Rohlfing DL. Formation of proteinoid microspheres under simulated prebiotic atmospheres and individual gases. Biosystems 1976 Jul;8(2):45-50
Fouche-CE Jr; Rohlfing-DL Thermal polymerization of amino acids under various atmospheres or at low pressures. Biosystems. 1976 Jul; 8(2): 57-65
SW Fox, Thermal polymerization of amino-acids and production of formed microparticles on lava. Nature, 201: 336-337, Jan. 25, 1964.
Hennon, G, Plaquet, R, Biserte, G. The synthesis of amino acid polymers by thermal condensation at 105° without a catalyst. Biochimie 57: 1395-1396, 1975.
Heinz, B, Reid, W. The formation of chromophores through amino acid thermolysis and their possible role as prebiotic photoreceptors. BioSystems 14: 33-40, 1981.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟32,309.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
GJG said:
The point is: Within a perfectly sterile environment, how can life accidentally come into being?

It's not "accidental". The key phrase you want is "within a perfectly sterile environment, how can life come into being BY CHEMICAL REACTIONS" Chemistry is not "accidental".
 
Upvote 0

GJG

Active Member
Jul 16, 2003
272
1
✟412.00
The monoselastic glastodinal fastoids are sometimes mistaken for cosmological retandified graminoles. Thus we find the structure of common sea anneractines realigning with subatomic crutons. This in itself is not solely responsible for the neodebasal simplestic fromozoids. So we find it easy to see the full raealization of wumplesnappers!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums