Do you believe in Prophets?

Define what you mean by "Prophet" please.

ProphetJohn said:

Do you believe in Prophets and Prophetess in the today church?

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Yes I do believe in prophets and prophetess in today's church.

Well, certainly, there are prophets in the church today for we are warned about them.


Mt 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mt 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


But after Christ,

Lu 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

1Jo 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are told in the book of Revelation that two prophets, or witnesses will come, but the time of general revelation is past. The Old Testament prophets "foretold", the New Testament prophets "forthtold" of the Savior.

~malaka~

Ephesians 4:11-12 " And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying fo the body of christ"

Acts 13: 1 " Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers "

1 Corinthians 12 : 28 " and God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

1 Corinthians 14: 29 " Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge "

1 Corinthians 11:4-5
" Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head;for that is even all one as if she were shaven "

and my personal favorite
1 corinthians 13 :2
" And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that i could remove moutains, and have not charity, I am nothing "

1 corinthians 14 :1-4
" Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit int he spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. "

Yes, I do. I also believe they are not quite the same as what we see in the Old Testament.

In other words, the prophet we see in the OT generally brought doom and gloom while the prophet in the NT is for edification, correction, admonishment, etc.

Because we have the whole story, from begining to end, (the bible), a prophet today is one that knows scripture and it's applications for today. The gift is given to some but they are easily checked for we all have the bible.

eldermike said:

Because we have the whole story, from begining to end, (the bible), a prophet today is one that knows scripture and it's applications for today. The gift is given to some but they are easily checked for we all have the bible.

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Well said Mike.

But would you please quit reading my mind.

My friends in the Charismatic forum may be surprisd to hear me say this: I think there are prophets in the Church today. They may not be anywhere near the stature of the OT prophets but they have a role to play.

I also believe that we should be cautious about them and test it out. To be frank, there are some who abuse prophecy and the prophetic ministry as well as erronous falible people.

ProphetJohn said:

Do you believe in Prophets and Prophetess in the today church?

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Absolutely!

eldermike said:

Because we have the whole story, from begining to end, (the bible), a prophet today is one that knows scripture and it's applications for today. The gift is given to some but they are easily checked for we all have the bible.

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In context of the spirit of how this post is meant, I do accept the basic statement that we know the whole story from beginning to end . But I disagree with the point made if it is taken literally. I must point out that 1 Corinthians 13 points out that we see thru a glass darkly and only later will we know as we are known which I take to mean heaven. we prophesy in part and we see in part. Which is not to reduce the stature of the bible or the divine mysteries which have been revealed in this dispensation.
However, there are still mysteries and limited knowledge such as end time eschatology to give one example. There are many areas of the bible which apparently remain veiled to us somewhat , in my opinion, even as christ was veiled in the old testament to the jews although he was revealed there. we seem to get glimpses of the big picture at times but still grope around with partial knowledge of many things.
My point is not that we have to be unsure or uncertain of biblical truth. Only a recognition that while we know many of the basics when it comes to prophecy, we still see as through a glass darkly on many matters.
Many prophetic words are beyond the bounds of our ability to know for certain. We can broadly say it doesnt conflict any major biblical doctrines but beyond that we are unable to determine whether that word was from God or not. In my opinion, of course.

Ephesians 4:11-12 " And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying fo the body of christ"

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The verse above is self explanatory. If apostles and prophets "Peted out" after the NT, then so have "evangelists, pastors and teachers" as well. We cant 'pick and choose'.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Cessationists say that the "perfection" in verse 10 refers to the completion of the Bible, and since we have the Bible today, the gifts have passed away.

What is the "perfection"?

The "perfection" in verse 10 refers to our perfection, not the completion of the Bible. The context itself clearly tells us this, as it talks about "we" and "I" knowing in part, then knowing fully; being a child, then growing into a man.

* 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
* 11 When I was a child,...When I became a man,...
* 12 ...Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,...

If we say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible, then we are actually saying that the Bible -- a non-living thing -- went through these human growth processes.

So, the passage clearly talks about us (not scrolls of scriptures) knowing partially then knowing fully, and that when the latter happens, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that help build up and empower the church) will no longer be necessary and hence be done away with.

From glory to glory

* 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.

Again, to say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible is to also say that the Bible once saw a "poor reflection" of itself in the mirror, then saw "face to face" with someone once it was completed. This, of course, is ludicrous. So, what is the verse saying?

Let us look at two other verses for the meaning or symbolism of "mirror". Let the Bible interpret the Bible.

* 2 Corinthians 3:18
18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. [YLT]

* James 1:23
23 because, if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one hath been like to a man viewing his natural face in a mirror, [YLT]

Christians have "unveiled faces" in the sense that they are able to see that Jesus is Lord by the grace of God. But for the Jews, till today, their hearts are "veiled" whenever they read the Old Covenant scriptures -- they cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah. But should any Jew turn to the Lord, the veil is removed (2 Corinthians 3:14-16).

But Christians don't see the Lord "face to face" now as He is still literally at our Father's right hand, interceding for us, since His ascension. What we see is a "poor mirror reflection" of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Because we are in Christ and Christ is in us by His Spirit, we reflect His image, albeit poorly, when we "look in a mirror". That is why James 1:23 says that a person who hears the Word but does nothing about it only reflects his natural self (not Jesus) as he "looks in a mirror".

Despite the dim reflection, the more we behold Jesus, that is, to learn more about Him, the more we are transformed from glory to glory into His likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18).

This transformation is still ongoing for every Christian, but it will be completed when we see Christ "face to face" -- no longer as a poor reflection in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12).

In other words, when Christ comes back for His church at the rapture, we would be perfected -- complete knowledge with glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 3:16,17, 2 Thessalonians 1:1).

Who knows it all?

Has "know fully" or "perfection" happened to every Christian as cessationists believe? The answer is obvious. Just because we have the Bible, study aids and Bible teachers does not mean that we now know perfectly. No honest Christian will say that he understands perfectly every word or phrase in the Bible, let alone the mysteries of this age.

Some cessationists then argue that we should not take "know fully" in absolute terms. They say that "know fully" just means knowing God's salvation plan.

Well, the qualification is in verse 12 -- "even as I am fully known". We are fully known by one person only -- God. So, have we come to the place where we know fully to the same degree and standard that we are fully known by God? Again, the answer is obvious.

Having versus knowing

A related argument is that the passage is only talking about us having at our disposal, perfect knowledge, that is, the Bible. But verse 12 clearly talks about us knowing fully, not us having at our disposal, perfect knowledge.

This means that complete knowledge has to be "in our heads", not in a book we keep on our bedside tables. It is one thing to say that you own a complete set of the Encyclopedia Britannica, but a totally different thing to say that you know perfectly everything that is written in it.

Furthermore, I believe that God has much more knowledge and revelation in store for us than just what is contained in the Bible. The Bible is silent on many topics, such as how many galaxies God created, the truth about "aliens" or why there is no salvation plan for the fallen angels.

Total Christian unity?

* Ephesians 4:11-13
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Here, it clearly says that God gives gifts to the church for the perfecting of Christians, for ministry work, for the edification of Christians, and that He will continue to do so until all of us are united in the faith and knowledge of Jesus -- perfect men with the stature of the fullness of Christ.

The latter has obviously not happened, given the many different Church denominations and doctrinal arguments that continue to exist. Also, much ministry work still has to be done, such as missions and evangelism. Christians still need to be edified and encouraged. All this tells us that the church still needs the gifts, in fact, all the more in these last days.

ProphetJohn said:

Do you believe in Prophets and Prophetess in the today church?

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You mean like Benny Hinn? Or visiting pastors that make people fall into a trance?
If thats the definition of prophets your asking, then no.

Otherwise, my interpertation(which could be your interpertation), of prophets specifically chosen by God to give word to not just a city, but to the world...yeh, they exist, but they haven't surfaced up for a long time I recon.

I think we're getting this all wrong.

The answer: WE ARE ALL IN CHRIST.

First, we need to figure our what the roll or a prophet and a priest was. We should ask ourselves, not what their jobs were, but what they did.

A priest made intercessions to God on behalf of the people.

A prophet made intercessions to the people on behalf of God.

CHRIST, who was not present in OT times, is our mediator. He is eternally our priest, meaning He goes to the Father on our behalf. He proceeds from the Father, making Him a prophet.

Here's the most common statement in the New Testament: We are "IN CHRIST." Meaning therefore that we are all preists and we are all prophets.

We each are responsible for praying to God ON OUR OWN, and we each are responsible for PERSONALLY listening to God speak. That means we each assume the role of a prophet and priest. Not because we're good people, but because Christ is our mediaor who fulfills both the roles, and we are in Christ. That means that we each personally communicate with God on our own.

Thus, the doctrine that Christianity is a relationship- it depends on your views of priests and prophets and Christ. The doctrine that there is a priesthood of believers means that each of us may go to God on our OWN behalf.

Now there is a means of revelation. And that is why it is SO important to read your Bible every day. Sure we are the porphets that receive information. But HOW do we receive it? What is the mode of revelation? The inerrant, infallbile, authoritative Word of God.

Do I believe in prophets? 'Course I do! TTYL Jesus loves you!

I think there's a misunderstanding on other things as well. There aren't just ministers and teachers and missionaries. We're all supposed to be teaching, preaching the gospel, and we're all supposed to be full-time ministers. You can be a plumber or a construction worker and do all those while you're working, or what not. We're all supposed to be doing those 24/7. There aren't some elite Christians that we go to, we're all supposed to personally fulfill those roles, ideally. That's the setup of NT and OT Christianity. I'm nonCharismatic, but I believe that the Holy Spirit is empowering us to teach, share the gospel, and preach the word. Not just a select elite few. We're all called to be full-time minsters, no matter what profession we do it in.

Those roles have not vanished, unless you've given up the responsibility yourself. Whether or not they're alive today depends on whether or not you're taking up the responsibility to teach, preach, and share the gospel yourself. Don't rely on missionaries to do the preaching, or teachers to do all the teaching. Do everything for Jesus 24/7. That's ideal Christianity as God meant it to be. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Perhaps what we first need to know is 'What exactly is prophecy?' I was raised in churches that were silent on the subject. I realized I didn't even know what prophecy was, and I needed to know because we are commanded to covet to prophesy. (I was raised in churches that overlooked that command completely.) At best, I was told that prophecy was hardly any different than preaching the Word.

Here's what I found out about prophecy:

Luke 7:39 refers to a prophet supernaturally knowing something about a person. (The folks back then knew about prophecy and prophets):
"This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner."


Luke 22:64 indicates again that a prophet supernaturally knows something:
And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

And Daniel 2 is parallel to I Corinthians 14:24-25. Apostle Paul explains why prophecy is or is nearly the best gift in that an unbeliever like king Nebuchadnezzar is convinced of God when the secrets of his heart are revealed.

Thankfully, I had no vested interest in remaining unbelieving about the gifts of prophecy, so I began obeying God's command to covet to prophesy.

Is prophecy only for prophets? No, otherwise God would not have given that command to non-prophets like me. How does one become a prophet? Practice and confirmations.

P.S.
I'm looking for a church to worship in that believes not only in prophecy, but also in the gender-specific teachings of scripture. It seems that all the charismatic churches want to discard teachings about women. Not only is prophecy still for today, but the head-covering teaching is for today, etc... Charismatic churches take Galations 3:28 out of context and think it trumps all the gender-specific Biblical admonitions. Those churches will have no power against the same-sex marriage advocates until they realize that there is a physical difference between men and women, even though no difference in Christ. The Bible is very clear that we are to mind the physical difference between genders in a variety of contexts, including the worship service. I Corinthians 11:5 speaks of women prophesying, but not while assembled for worship. That context is very clearly not the "in the church" context which is the context introduced immediately following in verses 17-18.

ProphetJohn said:

Do you believe in Prophets and Prophetess in the today church?

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As in someone authorized by God to hand down new doctrines or messages from God?

No.

As in someone with a gift for teaching the Bible? Yes!

I would like to hear more about the head covering in Cornthians 11. I've given it considerable thought. What else does your church say? I'm more on your side on this issue.

BTW, WELCOME TO CHRISTIANFORUMS!!!

Thank you, Bro. What does my church say? The church I've been attending for only about 5 weeks hasn't said anything about it that I know of. The previous church "released" me, citing my stance on Biblical women's instructions as one of the problems they had with me.

Here's my story - in 1987, about 3 yrs married, I was challenged by the Spirit to be responsible for my own beliefs. My parent's reasonings, my church's reasonings were no longer sufficient. This happened because I met a couple believers who believed way different than I did. That got me to thinking about how to sort through all the different "interpretations" of the Bible. How to know who was right? I came to realize that my paradigm of "who" was right, was wrong. I needed to realize that truth is found in scripture, not in denominations, seminaries, churches, pastors, or any other human entity. These two guys were presenting me with a different belief ("instruments shouldn't be used in worship") than I had ever heard before. As I thought through it all, I realized that every last one of us needs to lay down all the offences we take with Scripture and just BELIEVE it! I searched out this new "instruments shouldn't be used in worship" idea and was absolutely excited out of my skin to find a solid answer to it in God's word! (The Greek word 'psalm' implies the use of musical instruments and is used appropriately in the N.T.)

I had decided that I would be willing to accept whatever God said on the subject so that I could be in the truth about it. That was a life-changing beginning for me, and I was EXCITED! I was so excited I couldn't stop with that one issue. I started reading the Bible voraciously, believing every word of it. In no time I ran across all manner of I Corinthians teachings that I had never been taught to observe. In the case of spiritual gifts, I had been vaguely taught that certain ones were passed away in fulfillment of the arrival of "that perfect". This wasn't altogether clear in my thinking, so I tackled that Bible study next. I found out that the Apostle Paul, as he was writing I Corinthians, was constantly bringing up the the coming return of Christ, and he uses the Greek telos, or some form of that word, to describe both of these things that we are to be expecting! I realized that the 1st century church was NOT expecting a 27-book New Testament to be "that perfect", but something more like the "perfect day" spoken of in Proverbs 4:18. It was then that I realized that I had been taught wrong about prophecy.

I ran across the commands to covet to prophesy, so I had to search out what prophecy was. I ran into the teachings about head coverings so I had to find out whether the head covering teachings are for today. And I had to find out about whether women can or cannot prophesy. And I knew and still know that if I were to seek some pastor's help in understanding these issues, he would only tell me what he had been taught. He would not lay down his offences with the scriptures and believe the simplicity of Christ. As the serpent beguiled Eve, so we have been beguiled from the simplicity that is in Christ. The serpent didn't deny God's command - he just denied God's reason for the command. That is what the church has done with the head coverings teachings. No, that is what SATAN has done TO the church.

For some odd reason, believers seem to think of head coverings in terms of the worship service. That connection is not made in scripture. Instead, Paul addresses the worship service behavior AFTER he addresses head coverings. Head coverings in I Corinthians 11:1-15, the worship service in verse 17 until 14:39.

I'd wanted to start a church myself in this area, but the apostle under whose authority I wanted to be said to keep looking at present churches, because I didn't know of anyone else who wanted to be part of a church with me.

So I'm working on a web site focused on revival. Just got the domain name last night. ReadyTheBride.com/org