P. E. T. A.

judifedway said:

Are you a Christian in the Biblical sense?

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You bet!

You certainly are not exhibiting the love of Christ towards people who happen to like animals. Did it occur to you that your words might cause a person to reject Christ, choosing to be with their pet rather than be in heaven?

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Are you equating the love of Christ with agreeing with any old teaching that comes down the road? If someone is not in lock-step with every one of your beliefs, are you saying that they are not Christians? If they don't agree with you on this or that, do they somehow lack the love of Christ?

I go by what scripture says. Not by trying to be popular, nor trying to be part of the 'in' crowd, nor politically correct. I take scripture very seriously...precept upon precept, line upon line.

Several years ago someone wrote Billy Graham asking if she and her dog would be reunited in heaven. Graham said something to the effect that if her happiness depended on seeing her dog, then it would be.

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That's a nice story, but it's not Biblically sound.

Are you willing to tell an 80 year old woman whose only lifeline is her pet Fido is not going to make to heaven? Are you willing to stake categorically pets/animals are not in heaven? Do you think Jesus would tell someone their pet is not going to heaven?

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Yes indeed...100%. The salvation of that 80 year old's soul is by far, much more important than a false sense of comfort about a "doggie heaven".

Genesis 9: 5 holds animal to account - why hold something to account that does not have a soul.

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First, let's take a look at what Genesis 9:5 actually says, and not pseudo quote it.

Genesis 9:5
"Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Now, let's also look at the entire passage in context.

Genesis 9:1-11
"1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.* 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man. 6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man. 7 And as for you, be fruitful and multiply; Bring forth abundantly in the earth And multiply in it." 8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9 "And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. 11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."

Acountability does not equate to having a soul. This passage clearly states that if a beast takes the life of a man, God will take the life of the beast. And if a man kills another man, God will take his life.

Eccelesiates 3: 19 "man has no advantage over the beasts."

Ecclesiastes 3: 21 "who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beasts go downward."

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You cut off the full verses and skipped over verse 20.

Let's look at those passages in context.

Ecclesiastes 3:16-22

"16 Moreover I saw under the sun, in the place of justice, that wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, that wickedness was there. 17 I said in my heart, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work." 18 I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals. 19 For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?" 22 Therefore I saw that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his works; for that is his portion: for who can bring him to see what will be after him?"

Both man and animals have one physical life. Both man and animals will physically die. Both man and animals will physically return to dust. In this regard, man has no advantage over animals.

The word, "Ruwach", translated from "xwr" in the Hebrew Lexicon, means, among other things, 'breath of air', and is the root word for both 'spirit' and 'breath' in this passage, and would be completely consistent in the interpretation of physical life, and how man has no atvantage over animals in this regard. All will physically die, man and animals...no exceptions.

Colossians 1:20 " and through him to reconcile to himself "all" things . . ."

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So by that logic, *all* things would mean that rocks, plants, fire, minerals, stars, chemicals, mountains and everything else would also have souls and need saving?

But, I digress. Let's take a look at that passage in context.

Colossians 1:18-23
"18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister."

There is nothing in here that even remotely says that animals have souls. Further, are animals required to continue in the faith? Are animals required to be steadfast and grounded in the hope of the Gospel? Do animals require being saved? Are we to preach the Gospel to animals, to save their souls? Was Paul a minister to animals as well as men?

Psalm 36:6 "man and beast you save O Lord"

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Let's see that in context.

Psalms 36
"1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David the servant of the Lord. An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes, When he finds out his iniquity and when he hates. 3 The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit; He has ceased to be wise and to do good. 4 He devises wickedness on his bed; He sets himself in a way that is not good; He does not abhor evil. 5 Your mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens; Your faithfulness reaches to the clouds. 6 Your righteousness is like the great mountains; Your judgments are a great deep; O Lord, You preserve man and beast. 7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings. 8 They are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house, And You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures. 9 For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light. 10 Oh, continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You, And Your righteousness to the upright in heart. 11 Let not the foot of pride come against me, And let not the hand of the wicked drive me away. 12 There the workers of iniquity have fallen; They have been cast down and are not able to rise."

Again, no talk of animals having souls.

Genesis 9:15 "I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and *every living creature* of all flesh." Why specificially mention making a covenant with creatures if they don't have souls.

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Again, you cut off the rest of that passage.

Genesis 9:12-17
"12 And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth. 14 It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud; 15 and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17 And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth."

A promise from God that He would cause no more floods that would destroy all flesh. There is nothing that says animals have souls.

Revelation 19:11 "Then I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse."

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There is a lot of imagery in John's visions in the Book of Revelations. He never says that horses have souls.

Have fun discrediting these verses.

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Was that really called for? Is that an example of the love of Christ you mentioned earlier? I am discussing what I believe, based on scripture. There is no annonosity on my part. No sarcasm, no hatred, no lack of the love of Christ.

Oh, and by the way, the easter bunny is a symbolic reference to ??? (I used to know, but forgot). But if someone asked me, I know I could find the origin. There are a lot of things not mentioned in the Bible, but whether or not animals will be in heaven isn't one of them.

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The easter bunny exists by the same logic that animals have souls. Since you are using the logic that the Bible does not specifically state that animals do not have souls, therefore animals do have souls, logic would follow that since the Bible does not specifically state that the easter bunny does not exist, therefore the easter bunny does exist.

I'm out of here.

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I am truly sorry you feel that way. When discussing doctrine, scripture and other things in these forums, all are not in lock-step with each other. You will find different interpretations, different beliefs and different ways Christians look at the same things. Else, this would be nothing more than a 'preaching to the choir' website, with nothing to discuss....just a bunch of zombies aping the same rhetoric, again and again. And, just because someone disagrees with me on these non-salvic issues, does not mean I automatically question their salvation or their love of Christ.

In a nutshell, if you are going to be participating in these discussions, be prepared for non-Christians, as well as other Christians, to be in disagreement with you on different issues, from time to time.

BTW, I have a beautiful dog which I rescued. I have been housing him, feeding him, grooming him, taking care of him and playing with him for over 3 years. He's a great pet.

Deuteronomy 14:4-6
"4 These are the animals which you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the mountain goat, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. 6 And you may eat every animal with cloven hooves, having the hoof split into two parts, and that chews the cud, among the animals."

breanna said:

Personally, I think that it's outrageous to try and equate eating meat with the suffering and death that occured during the holocaust. Although one of the reasons that I am a vegetarian is because of how I feel about the way animals are treated when being raised for slaughter, I think it is a disgrace to compare these two instances. Even though I didn't have a family member die in the holocaust, I am still offended by this campaign. Rather than invoking true compassion for animals who suffer, it merely dehumanizes the victims of the holocaust, and downplays the suffering and abuse that they endured.

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Well said.