No One Can Stop Sinning ...What ?

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Jul 30, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
Yes christians can sin, we are not suppose to but sometimes we fall and need to ask God to forgive us of that sin and then we need to repent that we don't make the same mistake again.

1 Cor. 3:3, For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
See, even one who thinks he loves Jesus more than life itself is able to sin.

I believe you missed the subject of this forum. The question is not "can christian's sin" the question is "can christians stop sinning." Big difference!

Evidently you have decided that if someone says "you can stop sinning and live perfect" it's tantamount to saying "you can't sin anymore," or "Christians don't sin." You're not alone, most who study John Wesley go about saying "christians don't sin." If Believers in Messiah don't sin why does it say, "if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, even Yahshua Messiah, the righteous?"

The scriptures make it clear that believers are going to mess up from time to time, but only if they live "in the flesh." Some people make a lifestyle of this, however, let God be their judge, not us! Yet, if a man says "I can never stop sinning," he puts himself in the same category as "those who cannot cease from sin," who the scriptures say are "spots and blemishes who sport themselves with their own deceivings while feasting with you."

If I answer the question "can you stop sinning," with a yes, I show forth that I have faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver me from temptation and bring me unto the fulness of the stature of Yahshua Messiah. If I say yes to this, that does not mean I'm judging everyone for falling into temptation and saying "you are not a believer." I get accused of this all the time, however, and it never ceases to amaze me.

However, I do say this: If I ask a man "can you stop sinning and live without sin in this life" and he answers no, you can rest assured that man can NEVER stop sinning in this life, it will never happen because he does not believe it, and our walk is a walk of FAITH!

One more thing, you said a person can sin and still be saved, I perceive that you are under the mistaken impression (as many are) that we have our salvation in the bag! If we already are "saved," then why do we yet "hope for salvation to come" and why does it say "he that endures to the end shall be saved," and why does it say "we are nearer to our salvation now, then when we first believed," and why does it speak of the "day of salvation" as a future event?

Salvation is "coming" for all who continue walking in the Spirit, yet, you are't saved until you are saved "mind, spirit, and BODY!"

I believe if you study this honestly you will see the truth of it in the scriptures.

Shalom
J. Dean

nephilimiyr · Jul 31, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
I believe you missed the subject of this forum. The question is not "can christian's sin" the question is "can christians stop sinning." Big difference!

I was answering the forumer who authored this thread. This is taken out of his first post.

Ever heard people say that it is impossible for humans to live without sin ?
I find that incredible liberal thinking, when looking at what God says about the subject.

Let's look at some scriptures:

#1)...."Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory", (Jude 24).
Question: True or false....is he really 'able' to keep you from falling ?

#2)......"Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and...bringing 'every thought' to the obedience of Christ", (2 Corinthians 10:5).
QUESTION: Can God actually control our very thoughts so that we don't covet something not right for us to have ?

#3).....Jesus actually told people: 'go and sin no more', (John 5:14....John 8:11).
QUESTION: Why would Jesus have told people that, if it were impossible to do so ?

These are but a few scripture texts that provide us with a view of the subject of sinnless living, which some Christians feel are impossible standards.
Or...is it because they want to sin...with the assurance of going to heaven, no matter what they do ?

Is this what happened to those people in Matthew 7:21-23 ?
They believed in God ....but lost out ...on eternal life in the end.

Here Silver Surfer lays it down on what he wants to debate on, whether it's possible or impossible for christians to sin. My post reflects that I believe one can still be a christian even though he has sinned. I believe the Lord is our mediator not just once in our life but at all times. He mediates on our behalf when we ask for forgiveness.

Silver Surfer says "Or...is it because they want to sin...with the assurance of going to heaven, no matter what they do?" From what I know, anyone who is a slave to sin is a slave to the devil and one can't have two master's. One has to chose which lord he is going to serve.

The problem I have with Silver Surfer's statement there is that he suggests that anyone who sin's does so because he wants to because he feels he can get away with it thinking he's living under grace. Since he gave no other anology this tells me this is all that he thinks is going on here.

Was Peter a slave to sin when he denied Jesus three times? NO he wasn't! He was a human being showing weakness and the devil took advantage of that. Did Peter deny Jesus because he believed that since Jesus was his Lord he would have forgive him no matter what? No, of coarse not!

The question I saw put forward here is whether christians can sin over and over again but on the first page the debate grew, IMHO, into whether a christian can sin period. Several have suggested just that quite plainly here. This is where my arguement is.

Evidently you have decided that if someone says "you can stop sinning and live perfect" it's tantamount to saying "you can't sin anymore," or "Christians don't sin." You're not alone, most who study John Wesley go about saying "christians don't sin." If Believers in Messiah don't sin why does it say, "if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, even Yahshua Messiah, the righteous?"

I don't know how but I do believe you have misunderstood me. I see what has been said by some in this thread is that it is possible to live a sin free life. I disagree. I can see people living close to a sin free life. For all I know they can go months or years without any kind of sin but I believe that this is a very rare thing. Most christians find it a strugle every day to get by whether by temptations or their own selves but by and large the overwhelming majority of real christians living today are under attack on a daily basis and do stumble from time to time, some more than others. This I don't, can't, and wont ever hold against them if they truely seek forgiveness and repent. Besides, Jesus is the judge of the human heart who am I or who are the rest of you to say these people are not christian and their names written in the book of life?

I see what's been said in this thread is that I could go months without ever sinning but at one point I could end up in a situation like Peter found himself in and sin and from that one moment of showing weakness and sinning would mean to say that I am a slave to sin.

nephilimiyr · Jul 31, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
The scriptures make it clear that believers are going to mess up from time to time, but only if they live "in the flesh." Some people make a lifestyle of this, however, let God be their judge, not us! Yet, if a man says "I can never stop sinning," he puts himself in the same category as "those who cannot cease from sin," who the scriptures say are "spots and blemishes who sport themselves with their own deceivings while feasting with you."

Yes I admitt to sin but I am not a slave to sin. I do not make a lifestyle of sin. I am a believer in Christ, I believe he died for my sins as well as yours and everyone elses. I do pray and beg God to forgive me when I do stumble, when I do something stupid or selfish. Are you saying this isn't good enough? Are you saying Jesus is going to deny me because I don't live every second of every day of every year sin free? You say let God be the judge, I agree!

Rom. 6:12, Let not sin therefore REIGN in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts therof.

To me there's a big difference between letting sin reign and haveing committed a sin.

Where did you get those quotes from you are useing? Since they're scripture please post the verse so I can show you that you have just taken the verse's out of context. You are the one equateing the two together and tieing it into the scripture "spots and blemishes who sport themselves with their own deceivings while feasting with you."
This does not discribe me in the least.

If I answer the question "can you stop sinning," with a yes, I show forth that I have faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver me from temptation and bring me unto the fulness of the stature of Yahshua Messiah. If I say yes to this, that does not mean I'm judging everyone for falling into temptation and saying "you are not a believer." I get accused of this all the time, however, and it never ceases to amaze me.

What you do is imply that you believe I'm not saved because I admitt I have sinned. What you have implied is that one can only be assured of his salvation if he lives a sin free life. Therefore I take this as saying that whenever I sin I have lost my salvation and in order to gain it back I must beg Gods forgiveness. Isn't this the same as asking Jesus to die on the cross over and over again? I don't believe it works that way. I believe that many christians have gone to heaven possessing unconfessed sins. Jesus judges the heart!

Rom. 8:1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This passage to me is talking about christians who are seeking a more perfect relationship with Christ. It does not rule out the possibility that those same Spirit filled christians may stumble.

I've always thought that when we die, when we shead this sinful flesh, that's when we are brought unto the fulness of the stature of Yahshua. As long as you are carnal, you will sin. As long as you go to Jesus with a heavey heart and ask forgiveness you will be forgiven. Those people claiming to be christian who keep sinning constantly with no remorse do so because they love sin. I don't love sin, I hate it when I sin.

The problem is is that you see the person asking the question "can you stop sinning" as them always meaning one thing and thats of haveing a condition of being slaves to sin. I believe I made my point that people can sin without being slaves to sin.

However, I do say this: If I ask a man "can you stop sinning and live without sin in this life" and he answers no, you can rest assured that man can NEVER stop sinning in this life, it will never happen because he does not believe it, and our walk is a walk of FAITH!

That sounds good, that's a good point you make there because one of our main goals as a christian should be to live a sin free life useing Jesus as our teacher. However I don't believe that it's realistic to say that from the time you except Jesus in your heart and become a babe in Christ that that's acheiveable in an instant. For some of us it may take only a few months, for others it will take a few years, for some a life time, and for some it will never happen. However that doesn't mean that the person who has sinned and who has accepted Jesus as his Lord isn't saved.

One more thing, you said a person can sin and still be saved, I perceive that you are under the mistaken impression (as many are) that we have our salvation in the bag!

I don't believe God is going to send someone to hell because they stumbled from weakness after haveing giving themselves over to the Lord. I do believe one can lose their salvation however and again I see letting sin reign and haveing committed a sin as two very different things and I also believe God sees a difference in it too.

If we already are "saved," then why do we yet "hope for salvation to come" and why does it say "he that endures to the end shall be saved," and why does it say "we are nearer to our salvation now, then when we first believed," and why does it speak of the "day of salvation" as a future event?

Salvation is "coming" for all who continue walking in the Spirit, yet, you are't saved until you are saved "mind, spirit, and BODY!"

I believe if you study this honestly you will see the truth of it in the scriptures.

Rom. 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. The passage doesn't suggest that the person is half way there or almost saved but "shalt be saved".

The passage "day of salvation" that you are referring to is that which you referred to earlier. We are to look forward to the fullness of the stature of Jesus and I too believe this is a future event. I see you beleiving that you have already achveived this day of salvation for yourself through Christ Jesus. Isn't that what you just said is a future event??? Hmmmmmmm...

Please, if your going to answer this post try to use the verse numbers? You don't have to write in the whole passage but as long as you give me the book, chapter, and verse I can follow along? Thank you!

Luchnia · Jul 31, 2003

Posted by twowitnessesusdotcom:

Actually, I can't elaborate on the New Testament, because the New Testament does not recognize "unknown" sins! This is because, the only time there are sins in your life that are unknown to you, it means you are walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit, and the New Testament discourages that.

I find the above statement you made to be and incorrect based on the Word. If a man walks in the flesh, he still knows his sins. Walking in the flesh does not negate knowledge of sin, unless you can otherwise support this view for us that we might learn more about this.

Word up

Silver Surfer · Jul 31, 2003

Was not Peter a christian when he lied saying he knew not this Jesus? (NO...he was not, and the Bible says so) John 18:25, And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am Not. See, even one who thinks he loves Jesus more than life itself is able to sin.[/QUOTE]

Peter was not converted at the time he denied his Lord....study Luke 22:32-34.
Jesus said when you are converted...that's when Jesus told him that he would deny him and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would crow 3 times.

nephilimiyr · Jul 31, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
Was not Peter a christian when he lied saying he knew not this Jesus? (NO...he was not, and the Bible says so) John 18:25, And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am Not. See, even one who thinks he loves Jesus more than life itself is able to sin.

Peter was not converted at the time he denied his Lord....study Luke 22:32-34.
Jesus said when you are converted...that's when Jesus told him that he would deny him and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would crow 3 times.

Your point is well taken and I do understand what your saying here. I thought it was a good passage to use however to discribe what I'm trying to say.

Yes it's true Peter at the time wasn't baptised with the Holy Spirit but does the New Testament teach that one has to be baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved? I don't believe that's true. Of all the scriptures I've read concerning being saved says nothing about the baptism of the Holy Spirit but only that we must believe in Jesus and repent of out sins.

Luchnia · Aug 1, 2003

No, when Peter lied he was a sinner again. Notice what Jesus said about "converted."

Word up!

nephilimiyr · Aug 1, 2003

Luchnia said:
No, when Peter lied he was a sinner again. Notice what Jesus said about "converted."

Word up!

Word Up! Jesus never suggests that all will be converted only that he's saying he has prayed that when Peter is converted he will strengthen his brethren. That's how I read Luke 22:32

In John 3 Jesus talks about being born of water and the Spirit and says unless one is not born of these things he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. But nowhere in that chapter do I read anything even remotely suggesting that once being born of water and Spirit the person is incapable of ever sinning again nor will he ever.

Sure, if a christian believer lies this means they have sinned and needs to ask forgiveness of that sin and God will forgive but the fact that the person sinned doesn't condemn him to eternal punishment. It certainly makes a case against them and during the final judgment this case will be made known BUT because Jesus is their Lord and their names written in the book of life it will be said that Jesus has paid the price for their sin's and their sins will never again be remembered. They will be washed of their sins and made clean. From what I see you people saying here is that you don't have to be washed clean because you don't sin and I believe just by you people saying that is a sin in itself because that is a lie.

John 3:36, He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
That's pretty straight forward for me, I don't no why you all want to confuse what is written there. Your makeing this verse out to be a lie!

Blessed33 · Aug 2, 2003

I think we can never stop sinning, though we should try. Jesus was the only perfect "person"... EVER!!

God is able to keep you from falling, but I think it is our nature to turn away from him sometimes.

Though we should try not to sin with all we've got, it is OK because of Jesus. So no reason to get in a tizzy, right?

Luchnia · Aug 2, 2003

You mean one who sins has eternal life? So sin doesn't bring the soul to eternal torments. Can you support that somehow from the Word that we may learn this new thing? The Word does not imply such, so we do want to know how we can understand this in the light of God's word. If this is the case, then we would not have to "awake to righteousness and sin not," or "little children, sin not," or "go and sin no more."

This would be great! We would no longer have to concern ourselves with the issue of sin and how it breaches man from God, nor would we have to any longer heed the words of Jesus. If we are not free from sin in this present life, then Paul lied to us in Romans 6:18,22 and if the servant of sin has eternal life with Jesus, then Paul did not know of this either. Maybe Paul lied to us, but in my heart, I feel he was telling the truth.

From Romans 6:16 we would have a clear indication of what a sinner is about and his destiny. It is very obvious that a man cannot serve sin and satan and be a servant of righteousness and God at the same time. When someon yields to sin, they are not yielded to God. They belong to the evil one. The evil one is the sinner's father. If you commit sin, you are a servant to sin Jn 8:34, 1 Jn 3:8. No man can commit sin and not be a servant to it, nor be free from the penalty of sin 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:7-8.

It would be better for us to believe what the Spirit of God said about the matter of committing a sin that we may seek God and His righteousness.

Word up

Silver Surfer · Aug 2, 2003

but does the New Testament teach that one has to be baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved? I don't believe that's true. Of all the scriptures I've read concerning being saved says nothing about the baptism of the Holy Spirit but only that we must believe in Jesus and repent of out sins.[/QUOTE]
I believe you are correct.
The people of God are described in Revelation 12:17...and, Rev. 14:12.
"Here is the patience of the saints....here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

The 7th day Sabbath (4th commandment) is but one of the points that separate this people from the vast majority of the christan world, which honors Sunday as a day for public worship.

It is the duty of every true Christian to warn the world of their disbedience to what God has said in his word, the Bible.
God is calling people back to the true worship of himself, (Revelation 14:6,7).

repentandbelieve · Aug 2, 2003

YaeSu said:
To believe that anyone can go through life without making mistakes is pretty naive.

How about to go through life, day by day, sinning less and less (by the grace of God) until they obtain a level of character they never dreamed possible.

repentandbelieve · Aug 2, 2003

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
I believe you missed the subject of this forum. The question is not "can christian's sin" the question is "can christians stop sinning." Big difference!

Evidently you have decided that if someone says "you can stop sinning and live perfect" it's tantamount to saying "you can't sin anymore," or "Christians don't sin." You're not alone, most who study John Wesley go about saying "christians don't sin." If Believers in Messiah don't sin why does it say, "if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, even Yahshua Messiah, the righteous?"

The scriptures make it clear that believers are going to mess up from time to time, but only if they live "in the flesh." Some people make a lifestyle of this, however, let God be their judge, not us! Yet, if a man says "I can never stop sinning," he puts himself in the same category as "those who cannot cease from sin," who the scriptures say are "spots and blemishes who sport themselves with their own deceivings while feasting with you."

If I answer the question "can you stop sinning," with a yes, I show forth that I have faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver me from temptation and bring me unto the fulness of the stature of Yahshua Messiah. If I say yes to this, that does not mean I'm judging everyone for falling into temptation and saying "you are not a believer." I get accused of this all the time, however, and it never ceases to amaze me.

However, I do say this: If I ask a man "can you stop sinning and live without sin in this life" and he answers no, you can rest assured that man can NEVER stop sinning in this life, it will never happen because he does not believe it, and our walk is a walk of FAITH!

One more thing, you said a person can sin and still be saved, I perceive that you are under the mistaken impression (as many are) that we have our salvation in the bag! If we already are "saved," then why do we yet "hope for salvation to come" and why does it say "he that endures to the end shall be saved," and why does it say "we are nearer to our salvation now, then when we first believed," and why does it speak of the "day of salvation" as a future event?

Salvation is "coming" for all who continue walking in the Spirit, yet, you are't saved until you are saved "mind, spirit, and BODY!"

I believe if you study this honestly you will see the truth of it in the scriptures.

Shalom
J. Dean

Amen.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 2, 2003

nephilimiyr said:
Yes I admitt to sin but I am not a slave to sin.

It's odd to me that you criticise me for not giving the chapter and verse when I quote a scripture and insinuate I'm taking it out of context, yet, you make sweeping statements that have NO scriptural basis at all, like this one, and you don't even offer a quote to back it up! It appears you want others to back up what they say, but you don't feel that you have to. Just and observation.

You say, you admit to sin but you aren't a slave to it. You deceive yourself. If you sin, you make yourself a "servant" of sin!

You disagree? Well you are disagreeing with Messiah not me!

John 8: 34-36
"34 Yahshua answered them, Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abides not in the house for ever, but the Son of man abides forever
36 If the son of man shall make you free, you shall be free indeed"

Not, that Messiah promises to set all the slaves of sin "free." This is a promise that some day his followers will walk without sin in this life, even as he walked!

nephilimiyr said:
Are you saying Jesus is going to deny me because I don't live every second of every day of every year sin free? You say let God be the judge, I agree!

Please, have enough integrity to not put words in my mouth! We have forgiveness of sins, I even state that in almost every post. I also state the Christians do sin, otherwise why would it say "if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, even Yahshua Messiah."

nephilimiyr said:
Rom. 6:12, Let not sin therefore REIGN in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts therof.

To me there's a big difference between letting sin reign and haveing committed a sin.

As I said, that's your opinion, now back it up with scripture. You aren't disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with Messiah and his apostles, at least have the common courtesy to quote, if you are going to accuse them of contradicting each other.

nephilimiyr said:
Where did you get those quotes from you are useing? Since they're scripture please post the verse so I can show you that you have just taken the verse's out of context.

(With me you don't have to give the chapter and verse because I know the word well, and I have a Strong's Concordance). By the way, the Apostles quoted scripture often in their letters, and they never once gave a chapter and verse! I suppose you are mad at them too and going to accuse them of taking out of context!

nephilimiyr said:
You are the one equateing the two together and tieing it into the scripture "spots and blemishes who sport themselves with their own deceivings while feasting with you."
This does not discribe me in the least.

Guess again, the two quotes were taken from the very same text!

2 Peter 2:9
This verse says if we believe, we can be just like Yahshua "tempted in all way, yet without sin."

2 Peter 2:10
This verse says he's talking about those who "walk in the flesh," you should know that Paul told the Galatians "walk in the Spirit and you will NOT fullfil the lust of the flesh." Those who sin are walking in the flesh!

These two verses are the ones I quoted, that you accused me of "pulling two different verses and putting them together out of context."

2 Peter 2: 13
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. SPOTS THEY ARE AND BLEMISHES, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

And the VERY NEXT VERSE?

2 Peter 2: 14
Having eyes full of adultery and SOULS THAT CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN;
beguiling unstable souls; an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; CURSED CHILDREN

Read 2 Peter 2: 15- 21
This says we must FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENTS! Can't get any plainer than that!

2 Peter 2: 22
But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that wa washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I

nephilimiyr said:
What you do is imply that you believe I'm not saved because I admitt I have sinned. What you have implied is that one can only be assured of his salvation if he lives a sin free life.

Again, you put words in my mouth. What you have done is wrongly INFER this from my words! What I say is that you have to "endure to the end" to be saved! You aren't "saved" yet! You may think you are, but you are, scripturally in error! I gave you NUMEROUS quotes that state that we aren't saved until the "day of salvation," and you simply ignore them! You have no answer for them, you just refuse to believe it. That is your perrogative.

nephilimiyr said:
Therefore I take this as saying that whenever I sin I have lost my salvation and in order to gain it back I must beg Gods forgiveness.

Again, you can't lose something you don't have friend! I never said when you sin you "lose" your salvation, what I said was, you don't HAVE your salvation. Not yet! If you keep living in sin, you may never see it!

nephilimiyr said:
Isn't this the same as asking Jesus to die on the cross over and over again? I don't believe it works that way.

Actually, when you go on sinning over and over again, you "crucify Messiah afresh," it is you, with your lifestyle of sin that is asking Messiah to die for you over and over again!

Hebrews 10: 26-30

Hebrews 6: 1-6

As you can see, if we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, there can be no repentance and no forgiveness, as long as we aren't listening to the Holy Spirit, and those who "walk in the flesh," are not listening to the Holy Spirit! If the Lord returns and finds you in that condition, rest assured he will cast you aside as an Hypocrite. So people who sin are playing "russian roulette" with their salvation. They are gambling that the Lord is not going to return while they are in the act of sin, and cast them out!

nephilimiyr said:
I believe that many christians have gone to heaven possessing unconfessed sins. Jesus judges the heart![/qoute]

Again, again, again, you fault me for quoting scripture without chapter and verse, yet you don't even quote scripture. With you it's "I believe, I believe," frankly, at the risk of sounding extremely harsh here, I don't give a HOOT what you believe, especially if you can't quote one scripture that backs it up! Where is the scripture that says ANY Christian has gone to heaven yet? If those that "sleep" in Messiah are already in heaven, why does it say that they will be "raised from their graves, at the last trumpet, and rise?" If they are already in Heaven, they don't need to be "raised!" Common sense people!

nephilimiyr said:

Rom. 8:1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Click to expand...

It says there's no condemnation if you "walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit." When you sin, you are "walking after the flesh, in which case you DON'T QUALIFY UNDER ROMANS 8:1 while you are sinning!

Do you not know that the Lord has promised to cast out ANY of his servants he catches in transgression when he returns?

"Matthew 24: 44-51

You put yourself in danger when you say, "you can sin, just don't make a habit of it." The servant in this teaching only committed TWO sins, smiting and drunkeness. That is NOT a lifestyle of sin. The guy was a good servant until he decided his master wasn't around, and wasn't going to see him. Then he did something wrong, but at that very moment his Lord returned!

Friends, you cannot GET AROUND THIS SCRIPTURE. The next time you are tempted to SIN, just ask yourself, do I want Yahshua to return and catch me doing this? I can assure you, the ONLY REASON you would give into that temptation after that is if you are pretty sure in your heart that "he's not going to come now!" Guess what, you don't know that, for no man knows the day or the hour!

nephilimiyr said:

This passage to me is talking about christians who are seeking a more perfect relationship with Christ. It does not rule out the possibility that those same Spirit filled christians may stumble.

Click to expand...

Now you're REALLY lying to yourself! You've already said a perfect relationship with Messiah is not possible, by saying you "can't stop sinning." You are just plain deluding yourself. How can you have a "perfect" relationship with Messiah if you are sinning constantly, and justifying it by saying "Messiah will forgive me?"

nephilimiyr said:

I've always thought that when we die, when we shead this sinful flesh, that's when we are brought unto the fulness of the stature of Yahshua.

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Well, you thought wrong, and you thought this wrongly because you did not bother to FIND OUT from the scriptures or from the Holy Spirit, this is why you have offered NO QUOTES to prove what you think! With you it's basically "my mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with FACTS!"

The fact is, if being brought to the fulness of stature of Yahshua is DEATH, well then, the FIVE FOLD MINISTRY must have come to KILL US, because it is the fivefold ministry that was given to BRING US TO THE FULNESS AND STATURE OF MESSIAH!

"Ephesians 4: 11-13
And he gave some apostles, and some prophets; and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers;
12 for the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Messiah
13 Till we all come in the UNITY of the FAITH, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Messiah"

nephilimiyr said:

As long as you are carnal, you will sin.

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Yes, amen, and as long as you are carnal, you shall die!

Romans 8: 5- 10
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of God HE IS NONE OF HIS.
NOTE, verse 10 says that our bodies are dead because of sin, and you say that is the way it will stay until the day we die, yet, not according to verses 11- 14.

12 Therefore, brethren we are debtors, not tot he FLESH to LIVE AFTER THE FLESH.
13 For if you live after the flesh YOU SHALL DIE! but if you throught the Spirit DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God!

So, you see, the Spirit that dwells in us helps us "mortify" the deeds of the body, and we will NO LONGER LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, we will not LIVE CARNALLY! This will make our BODIES just as IMMORTAL as MESSIAH'S was, for there will be no sin in our body! The Spirit will "quicken" our mortal body! This is done by KILLING THE SIN in our bodies, throught the power of the SPIRIT!

Yet, you have claimed that we will always be sinners until the day we die, you base this on the false idea that you will be CARNAL until the day you die, however, you DO NOT KNOW THAT, for, there is a GENERATION who ENTERS INTO THIS IMMORTAL SINLESS LIFE, and attains to the resurrection WITHOUT EVER DYING.

"Behold we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed," 1 Corinthians 15.

The only way you could say for SURE that you are NEVER GOING TO STOP SINNING IN THIS LIFE, and you will do so until the day you DIE, is if you are POSITIVE you aren't one of the ones spoken of when it says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

Thus, not only are you in error, you are in danger of being found a false prophet as well. If this event unfolds in our lifetime, everyone that you've told "you can't stop sinning in this life, not until you die," will PROVE YOU WRONG, and you will be a false prophet. Think about it!

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nephilimiyr said:

Rom. 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The passage doesn't suggest that the person is half way there or almost saved but "shalt be saved".

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Finally! A quote. You say the passage doesn't suggest the person is half way saved? No it doesn't SuGGEST it, it outright SAYS it. It doesn't say if you confess and believe you ARE saved! It says if you confess and believe you SHALL BE saved! That's FUTURE TENSE! Evidently, you can't read very well, or your mind is so darkened by your sin, you REFUSE to read it CORRECTLY!

nephilimiyr said:

The passage "day of salvation" that you are referring to is that which you referred to earlier. We are to look forward to the fullness of the stature of Jesus and I too believe this is a future event. I see you beleiving that you have already achveived this day of salvation for yourself through Christ Jesus. Isn't that what you just said is a future event??? Hmmmmmmm...

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What???? YOU are the one who's saying you've already "achieved" salvation, not me! What a way to twist words! I never once said I was PERFECT, I said I "hope for the day." Yet, I will tell you this, if you think God is going to wave his magic wand and make you perfect on that day, you haven't got a single SCRIPTURE to back it up! In fact, at the end of 1 Corinthians 15, (which describes that day in detail) it says

1 Corinthians 15: 58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be STEADFAST, unmoveable, alsways ABOUNDING IN THE WORK OF THE LORD, forasmuch as you know that your labor is NOT IN VAIN in the LORD!

In fact, the reason that Yahshua hasn't returned yet is because we haven't DONE what he asked and pressed on into PERFECTION! He doesn't want to cast out any of his believers, but his believers are erecting religious systems that are "tickling their ears," by telling them "you don't have to stop sinning, don't even try, it's impossible."
This keeps the believers from fulfilling Messiah in them! Messiah holds back his return, waiting for HIS BELIEVERS TO REPENT OF THEIR SINS! That's sad.

2 Peter 3: 9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (his return), as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Notice Peter includes HIMSELF and EVERYONE HE'S WRITING TO, when he says "to usward." God is waiting for US to repent, he's not waiting for the WORLD to repent, he'd be happy with just those who CLAIM to believe repenting! What a sorry sorry state we are in!

Shalom
Jeffrey D. Dean

nephilimiyr · Aug 2, 2003

WitnessesUSdotcom, I didn't mean to sound like I wanted to criticise you at all neither do I want to fight with you. I'm not all that well versed in scripture in that It takes me awhile to find what I'm looking for sometimes and that's why I asked for you to post the verses you use. Sorry if I upset you!

Justmovinalong · Aug 2, 2003

Isaiah 50:10 states: "Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the LORD, and rely on his God."

We, as humans, have no light. We have nothing good in us. We sick, twisted, despicable creatures. No matter how much we do charity, or ar kind and considerate, we always hate ourselves for something.

However, I don't think man can continue in sin and remain in a state of grace. In the Bible, the main thing about God and sin is this: we must repent. He will rebuke, we will repent. I think this is where God draws the line.

Christians are not above sin. CHRIST is above sin. We must kill our flesh daily, and allow Christ to live in us.

The Christian is in a constant battle between their sinful nature and their spirtual man.

Romans 5:17 "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."

It is apparent he speaks to Christians. So the only way to "not sin" is to fight the sinful nature.

nephilimiyr · Aug 2, 2003

Justmovinalong said:
Isaiah 50:10 states: "Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the LORD, and rely on his God."

We, as humans, have no light. We have nothing good in us. We sick, twisted, despicable creatures. No matter how much we do charity, or ar kind and considerate, we always hate ourselves for something.

However, I don't think man can continue in sin and remain in a state of grace. In the Bible, the main thing about God and sin is this: we must repent. He will rebuke, we will repent. I think this is where God draws the line.

Christians are not above sin. CHRIST is above sin. We must kill our flesh daily, and allow Christ to live in us.

The Christian is in a constant battle between their sinful nature and their spirtual man.

Romans 5:17 "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."

It is apparent he speaks to Christians. So the only way to "not sin" is to fight the sinful nature.

Right! And the question here, the way I see it, is whether man will ever acheive a sinless state. That's what I believe we're all supposed to work towards but I don't believe large majority of us will acheive this. Although Enoch and Elijah are two that come to mind that may have acheived this.

Right now I feel like I should just keep out of this debate. My beliefs on this here isn't going over well and plus I don't want to be yelled at again!

Justmovinalong · Aug 2, 2003

Nothing in the Bible tells me that man can achieve a sinless state, but indeed it talks about "pressing towards the prize".

I personally believe that if we are making a consious effort to overcome our sins, we will in fact do that. But his does not mean "obtaining perfection". To me, it only means "obtaining perfect character." Job was considered the most righteous man ever, yet he admitted that he had sinned. I believe, as many other theologians, that what God looks for is more of a person who does not wish to sin, and repels himself from it, rather than one who "has no sin".

1 John 3:9 states specifcally that no one born of God can go on sinning. Outright says it.

BUT, in the Greek, this word "sinning" is "hamartano", which is (accprding to my sources) means a "present active infinitive, implying continued action." What John (and in fact the Holy Spirit Himself) is trying to say is that no man can continue a way of life in which sin is the dominant chareteristic. Which means any man claiming to be saved and yet has no remorse (or takes no action against) his sin cannot be a true child of God. This does not mean "Christians can't sin."

Should we strive not to sin? Of course! If we didn't, we could not call ourselves Christians. But can we expect to be totaly perfect. No. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Jesus did not mean that scripture only for the disciples, but for every man and woman afterwards. We are more than willing, but our nature struggles against what we srtive for.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 2, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
but does the New Testament teach that one has to be baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved? I don't believe that's true. Of all the scriptures I've read concerning being saved says nothing about the baptism of the Holy Spirit but only that we must believe in Jesus and repent of out sins.

I'm amazed by this statement. I urge you, in the name of Messiah, shut down your computer right now, go into your closet with the New Testament, pick it up and READ it, for you clearly have never read it before!

Messiah said that the CENTRAL PURPOSE of the cross was to send us the Holy Spirit. "It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away the comforter will not come to you."

Man, if you can read the New Testament and not see that we are "sealed" with the Holy Spirit, and that our salvation is hinged on the Holy Spirit, well, you know what. I am not even going to waste my time.

J. Dean

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom · Aug 2, 2003

Justmovinalong said:
Nothing in the Bible tells me that man can achieve a sinless state, but indeed it talks about "pressing towards the prize".

You sir are just a liar, and know not of what you speak, neither of what you believe, neither can you know him. You have my permission to remain the dispicable person you are, be my guest. The Lord rebuke you!

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