Are there any creationists willing to debate?

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Pete Harcoff

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This was brought up in another thread, but I think it's worth a thread of its own.

For awhile, the number of creationists actually willing to engage in active debate have virtually disappeared from these forums. Even new creationists that come in seem less interested in addressing issues raised by people on the forum than simply reciting creationist propoganda.

Are there any creationists out there willing to actually debate about things raised in these forums?
 

lucaspa

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Pete Harcoff said:
This was brought up in another thread, but I think it's worth a thread of its own.

For awhile, the number of creationists actually willing to engage in active debate have virtually disappeared from these forums. Even new creationists that come in seem less interested in addressing issues raised by people on the forum than simply reciting creationist propoganda.

Are there any creationists out there willing to actually debate about things raised in these forums?

Pete, debate is the wrong term. Debate is a sport to decide who the best debator is.

I submit that there are few who want to DISCUSS evolution and creationism because the quality and quantity of evidence presented soon leaves little room for creationism to be a valid position.

We'll see if Drotar comes back.

In the meantime, we can still continue to have fun discussing science and the interface between science and religion.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Debate, discuss, you know what I meant.

My point was that there seem to be a number of non-creationist posters which bring up a variaty of topics, that continually remain unaddressed by creationists in these forums. If creationists are unable to engage in active discussion about topics being raised by non-creationists, then there seems little point for this forum (imho).
 
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lucaspa

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Pete Harcoff said:
Debate, discuss, you know what I meant.

My point was that there seem to be a number of non-creationist posters which bring up a variaty of topics, that continually remain unaddressed by creationists in these forums. If creationists are unable to engage in active discussion about topics being raised by non-creationists, then there seems little point for this forum (imho).

So we turn it into a forum about science, the interface between science and religion, and generally about epistemology.

But don't worry, I'm sure we'll get a new creationist in here sooner or later that will need education.

Pete, notice that if creationism is indeed falsified, then creationists are not going to be able to respond to evidence that falsifies it. Which explains why creationists here are unable to engage in active discussion.

We should still keep doing it as part of a general scientific education for everyone.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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lucaspa said:
So we turn it into a forum about science, the interface between science and religion, and generally about epistemology.

But don't worry, I'm sure we'll get a new creationist in here sooner or later that will need education.

Pete, notice that if creationism is indeed falsified, then creationists are not going to be able to respond to evidence that falsifies it. Which explains why creationists here are unable to engage in active discussion.

We should still keep doing it as part of a general scientific education for everyone.

I'm just wondering if it is beneficial to do so. I guess for some lurkers it might be beneficial. But for others it just seems to cement in their minds that modern science is incompatible with Christianity, and that there's some sort of scientific conspiracy against them.

I dunno, maybe I'm just feeling the frustrations of posting here and needed to rant a little...
 
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JohnR7

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lucaspa said:
I submit that there are few who want to DISCUSS evolution and creationism because the quality and quantity of evidence presented soon leaves little room for creationism to be a valid position.

Or as BabbleOn8806 said, they get tired of being insulted by scoffers and skeptics and soon come to realize it is a waste of time to try and convince someone of truth when they are hell bound to believe lies.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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JohnR7 said:
Or as BabbleOn8806 said, they get tired of being insulted by scoffers and skeptics and soon come to realize it is a waste of time to try and convince someone of truth when they are hell bound to believe lies.

John,

You do know that the Young Earth Creationists think that Old Earth Creationists are hell bound to believe lies don't you. Look at the way AiG trashes Hugh Ross on occasion for example.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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JohnR7

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
John,

You do know that the Young Earth Creationists think that Old Earth Creationists are hell bound to believe lies don't you. Look at the way AiG trashes Hugh Ross on occasion for example.

I am not aware of any Young Earthers that believe that the Old Earthers are hell bound for destruction. Usually the youngums respect their elders in church circles. :wave:

It would not surprise me if they had serious reservations about theistic evolutionists though. :angel:
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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JohnR7 said:
I am not aware of any Young Earthers that believe that the Old Earthers are hell bound for destruction. Usually the youngums respect their elders in church circles. :wave:

It would not surprise me if they had serious reservations about theistic evolutionists though. :angel:

Answers in Genesis certainly accuses Hugh Ross of being a liar which blows my irony meter right off the scale.

I think the main reason YECs eventually leave is that they have no real arguments to make and can only repeat lies and nonsense from Young Earth websites that are easily shown to be wrong. The impossibility of providing scientific support for a young earth and worldwide flood eventually become too much after all the nonsense they can find from professional YECS has been refuted. If they don't want anyone to say their claims are ridiculous they shouldn't make ridiculous claims that they can't in any way support.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Cantuar

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The creationist ministry websites look very persuasive and are full of "the evolutionist believes this" and "the evolutionist will say that" and some mighty interesting conclusions based on published science. When creationists actually talk to "evolutionists" and find they don't stick to the creation ministry script and that they're aware of the science out there, things get a bit harder. Either they have to shift their frames and address the science-friendly posters as they really are, not as the creationist ministries say they are, or they must retreat into their creationist ministry-defined alternative reality and work from there, which means they and the science friendly are talking past each other.
 
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vajradhara

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Cantuar said:
The creationist ministry websites look very persuasive and are full of "the evolutionist believes this" and "the evolutionist will say that" and some mighty interesting conclusions based on published science. When creationists actually talk to "evolutionists" and find they don't stick to the creation ministry script and that they're aware of the science out there, things get a bit harder. Either they have to shift their frames and address the science-friendly posters as they really are, not as the creationist ministries say they are, or they must retreat into their creationist ministry-defined alternative reality and work from there, which means they and the science friendly are talking past each other.


Namaste,

good show and well said!

cheers!
 
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Alessandro

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I would be, but you see it as the opposite of what I see it no matter what. So it comes down to having two different views of the evidence at hand. And of which the two parties are convinced, and would not change because both believe they are correct.

So starting topics about Creation vs Evolution will result in more of what has been going on. We will state our views and so will you, but most likely without reaching any goals in the end. You deny the evidence that we see as proof of the work of God, and vice versa.

God Bless.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Alessandro said:
I would be, but you see it as the opposite of what I see it no matter what. So it comes down to having two different views of the evidence at hand. And of which the two parties are convinced, and would not change because both believe they are correct.

So starting topics about Creation vs Evolution will result in more of what has been going on. We will state our views and so will you, but most likely without reaching any goals in the end. You deny the evidence that we see as proof of the work of God, and vice versa.

God Bless.

As I said before you are entitled to your own views but not your own facts and what you have posted on the other threads to try to support your views is for the most part factually incorrect. We deny the supposed evidence you provide because most of it is false and the rest is distorted or not evidence for a global flood but merely evidence that many sediments were deposited underwater. Young Earth creationism lost the scientific debate nearly 200 years ago and masses of data that have been collected since then support an ancient earth and provide further falsifications of the myth of a worldwide flood. There are no data that can only be explained by a worldwide flood. None. Young earth creationists are not viewing exactly the same evidence. They consistently leave out all the evidence that falsifies their position and distort the rest. All anyone who doubts this needs to do is read the threads below.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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honeylight

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JohnR7 said:
Or as BabbleOn8806 said, they get tired of being insulted by scoffers and skeptics and soon come to realize it is a waste of time to try and convince someone of truth when they are hell bound to believe lies.

Ditto. There is no point in trying to persuade a fool: Do not anwswer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Proverbs 26:4 (NIV) :p

Of course, it's from the Bible. This is a Christian message board, is it not?
 
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Alessandro said:
I would be, but you see it as the opposite of what I see it no matter what. So it comes down to having two different views of the evidence at hand. And of which the two parties are convinced, and would not change because both believe they are correct.

So starting topics about Creation vs Evolution will result in more of what has been going on. We will state our views and so will you, but most likely without reaching any goals in the end. You deny the evidence that we see as proof of the work of God, and vice versa.

God Bless.

The difference of course is we have actually shown tons of evidence that has been flat out ignored by you and those who share your position.

You have not shown that any of us have ignored evidence. We seek explanations for ALL available evidence. Your position does not. You simply throw out the findings you don't like because you think you know the ultimate conclusion already even though your conclusion is actually false, as has been shown.

It's not about different interpretations; it's about one side explaining all available evidence and the other denying what it doesn't like.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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honeylight said:
Ditto. There is no point in trying to persuade a fool: Do not anwswer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Proverbs 26:4 (NIV) :p

Of course, it's from the Bible. This is a Christian message board, is it not?

What YECs need to realize is that the professional creationists are out to make fools of them all. Their claims are easily seen through by those with even a modicum of scientific knowledge but they sound scientific enough to fool YEC laymen who want to believe that there is some scientific support for the YEC mythology.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Alessandro said:
I would be, but you see it as the opposite of what I see it no matter what.

That's not true at all. In the other thread on the flood I asked some very specific geology-related flood questions. The inability of creationists to provide answers gives me reason to believe their view is not tenable with respect to the Earth. Therefore, I have no reason to accept their view. If you can't provide evidence for it, why should I?

It would be like me claiming there's a dragon living in my basement, but refusing to provide evidence for the claim. Therefore, you'd have no reason to believe there is a dragon in my basement.

So it comes down to having two different views of the evidence at hand. And of which the two parties are convinced, and would not change because both believe they are correct.

So starting topics about Creation vs Evolution will result in more of what has been going on. We will state our views and so will you, but most likely without reaching any goals in the end.

I am willing to meet half-way on discussions of these topics. Of course, if the creationists are not willing to meet half-way, then the discussion will go nowhere.

You deny the evidence that we see as proof of the work of God, and vice versa.

It has nothing to do with whether the evidence is "proof of the work of God". After all, there are plenty of people who see evidence of God in His creation without subscribing to the creationist viewpoint. It's the issue of whether or not certain parts of the Bible are representative of the literal history of the Earth. These claims are testable with respect to the Earth. That creationists avoid certain lines of evidence that contradicts certain creationist ideas, implies that those ideas are faulty with respect the Earth and the evidence contained within.
 
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Im really not used to a discussion forum of this size, I keep jumping in and out of threads but I'll try to jump in here and try to keep up with it if I can. First off evolution is not natural science per se, its a synthesis of science and philosophy. It is essentially an arguement against 'special creation' Im convinced it is antithesitic it its intent and there is nothing Ive seen to convince me otherwise.

When Darwin wrote Origin of Species he was proposing an argument based on an essay by Malthus which was not natural science nor natural history, it was natural philosophy. The principles out lined in the essay are based on the principle that drives empirical science and inductive scientific method. " experience is the true source and foundation of knowledge" (Malthus, An Essay on the Principle of Population). His essay and Origin of Species are arguments and elucidations (explainations) of theory, which is philosophy not natural science in the empirical sense. It is not only permissable for natural science to weave theory and practical considerations it is vital. The principle he elucidates is actually a common sense observation "Population increases geometrically, sustence increases arithmetical", in other words population increases faster then the enviroments ability to sustain life. The Malthusian model claims that 'divergence of character', which is another way of describing natural selection, is how survival is determined in nature. Anyone interested in the philosophy of science might want to check this out. This is the philosophical treatise that inspired the argument in Darwin's Origin of Species.
http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/malthus/malthus.1.html

In the first five of the 14 chapters Darwin describes observations underlying the theory of natural selection. He talks about artificial selection (especially important) in domesticated animals and compares them to how nature selects preexisting variants. Chapter 3 describes the Malthus struggle for existence, and chapter 4 details the environmental influences. In chapter 5 there are a series of 'guesses at the sources of natural selection. Chapter 6 he anticipates arguments against the theory and most of the rest he takes the detals from his observations and explains them using this theory of natural selection. Thats why the book was revised six times by 1872, it was theoretical. The premise of Origin of Species is very straight forward and clearly metaphysical in its character, anyone contending that this has nothing to do with God should read Darwin. A theist who belived in special creation was actully way ahead of him on the principles natural variation and developed what are truly scientific laws based on experimentation not philosophy. Mendel crossed and cataloged some 24,034 plants and came up with two scientific laws. Darwin makes some observations and forms a theory that is actually an attack on theistic belief. The science involved has nothing to do with the metaphysics of evolution except as a smoke screen. The philosophy he was arguing against is described here:

" Nothing can be more striking than the manner in which he shows that the introduction of new species is "a regular, not a casual phenomenon,' or, as Sir John Herschel expresses it, 'a natural in contradistinction to a miraculous, process.'" (Philosophy of Creation, Rev. Baden Powell)

There are two issues here of interest to a theistic world view, the principle of creation and the miraculous. If God created the earth and all of life then it is by definition supernatural. Im accused of not knowing what the issues are here but I do. Darwin is claiming that God did not create different species independantly as described in Genesis.

"namely, that each species has been independently created -- is erroneous." (Taken from the first chapter of Origin of Species). If you look at the context you will notice that it is the bottomline i.e. main point

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/preface.html

Evolution says that we evolved from single cells called Eukaryotic cells. All I am saying is that this transition from molecules to amino acids that produce living cells without the benefit of genetics information from a parent cell is a transition. For these cells to produce the Cambrian explosion is a transition, for hominoids to produce hominids is a trasition. Transition based on a priori supposition that God didnt 'create' any of this. The redundancy of saying God had nothing to do with it will not make it true. There is another presumption that anyone who belives that life originated with God in a special creation described in Genesis is ignorance of natural science. This is prejudice plain and simple, not the science that maintains " experience is the true source and foundation of knowledge". What I have, and other Christians have 'experinced', with regards to the study of life and rational understanding of reality is that God created life as described in Genesis. Evolution is not science its metaphysics based on naturalistic presumption.


"In laboratory experiments aimed at simulating conditions on a lifeless Earth, a messy mixture of amino acids can be formed, consisting of mostly glycine and d/l-alanine. Not all amino acids found in proteins can be synthesized in this manner, while many not used by living systems do result from these experiments. A product consisting of exclusively left-handed amino acids never results,"
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-313.htm

The real problem is that you need to go from molecules to amino acids, nucleotides carbohydrates and lipids. Then engineer RNA, DNA, and Lipid spheres before the first primordial cell is formed. The really tricky part is the nucleic acid sugars ribose and deoxyribose are asymetric (like a left hand and right hand). To make 150 years of trying to deal with this paradox (no pun intended) there are still only two myths fabricated to facilitate this: 1. Meterorites 2. Chirality spontaniously generated from molecules with the ability to replicate.
 
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