JW's, question about your convention this year...

LightBearer said:

You are not reading correctly what I post.


I said it was late into Judas appointment that he was thieving. It was less than a year from his appointment that Jesus deteced badness developing in Judas so that he new it would be he who would fulfill the prophecy of betrayal. From the beggining of Judas bad course Jesus then knew it would be him. This is the beggining Jesus was refering to.

Click to expand...

It seems to me you are reading an awful lot into the verses to make your pre-concieved notions ring true. I have no idea where you are getting your facts. everything you just posted above is pure speculation. And, if Jesus knew Judas was bad less than a year into his appointment, and let it go for 2 more years without doing anything about it, it's just as bad as if he appointed Judas knowing from the beginning, according to your rules. Also, the bible says nothing about Judas 'going bad' anyway. It says only that Jesus knew it was Judas who was going to betray him and that is who he was refering to when he spoke of one of them being a devil and later when he said one would betray him.

1 Timothy 5:22 Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others; preserve yourself chaste.​

The priciple highlighted above in 1 Timothy is related to oppointing someone to office. Timothy is told not to hastely lay his hands apon anyman, in other words, before you appoint a man to office make sure he is a faithfull and honourable man. If he isn't and commits wrongdoing Timothy would share the responsibility of that one's wrongdoing.​

The requirments for appointment are layed out in 1 Tim 3: 1-13 one of which is: 1 Timothy 3:10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.​

Also with Judas, Jesus would have tested him as to fitness to see if he could serve as an Apostle before making the appointment in line with this divine or Godly principle. Clearly his appointment by Jesus testifies that he was a faithfull and loyal disciple when he was appointed. It was later on that he started to turn bad. ​

Therefore, that principle has everything to do with the appointment of Judas as an Apostle. If Jesus appointed Judas (Layed his hands hastely apon him) knowing he was "a devil" and going to commit wrongdoing then like timothy he would be a sharer in that wrongdoing.

Click to expand...

Strange that Jesus could heal people, could tell the samaritian at the well everything about herself, could raise people from the dead, could know Peter would betray him 3 times the night before his death, etc, etc, but couldn't "know" his disciples well enough to pick 12 good ones----UNLESS--He knew exactly what He was doing in order to fulfill prophecy.

Also, if he knew the bible sooo well that He knew from the start one would betray Him, what's the difference if He knew which one from the start??

Posted by Lightbearer:
The requirments for appointment are layed out in 1 Tim 3: 1-13 one of which is: 1 Timothy 3:10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.


Also with Judas, Jesus would have tested him as to fitness to see if he could serve as an Apostle before making the appointment in line with this divine or Godly principle. Clearly his appointment by Jesus testifies that he was a faithfull and loyal disciple when he was appointed.


Response:
Funny, Jesus walked up to most of the disciples and said, basically, "Hey, stop what you are doing, and follow me, I'll make you fishers of men" etc etc. I read nothing about Jesus "testing" ANY of them before he picked them. He walked up to them and said, "follow me" and they did.

LightBearer said:

The difference is, by appointing to office a person he knew was allready "A Devil" as you say, then he is responsible for that ones wrongdoing.

Answer this:

If you were a bank manager and you employed someone you knew was a theif and going to steal from the bank, would you be responsible and therefore should you be held to account when they did so?

Regards,

LB

Click to expand...

Comparing apples to oranges isn't going to get us anywhere. I've already said that we are too far apart on the whole issue of God's Will and Omniscience to go much further with this.
The fact of the matter is, there is absolutely no way you can prove that Jesus did not know Judas was the betrayer right from the start with scripture. ALL you can do is apply what YOU see as "divine standards" to God and assume the rest.

Try proving to me that Jesus put any one of the disciples to some sort of test before he "appointed" them. From what I read, He pretty much walked up to them and said "follow me" and they did. Saying that he applied some sort of divine standard to them and "tested" them before he appointed them is PURE speculation, because you certainly can't find that in the bible.

It was about a year and a half after Jesus baptism that he choose his twelve Apostles. A year and a half is plenty of time to test which of his disciples were qualified for Apostleship. By this time he would have known them intimately. In fact he stayed up all night in prayer to Jehovah to ensure he was making the wise choice.

So, a year and a half plus almost another year before he detected Judas going bad and were almost two and a half years into Jesus ministry with a short time left before his death. How long after Jesus detected Judas going bad and him stealing is not mentioned. But it could have been relatively short enough so that there was no point in doing anything about it except let the prophecy be fulfilled.

Regards,

LB

Click to expand...

Where are you finding this stuff? It's nothing but speculation. The bible does not say that he "knew" any of them before he appointed them. In fact the bible is pretty vague about most of the 3 years, and certainly doesn't describe what you are talking about. There was a time into the ministry it's mentioned in Mark that he gave the 12 their power, but it never says how far into the ministry it was. And the bible is specific about how he picked several of the 12. The four fisherman and Matthew the tax collecter he just walked up to and said "follow me" and they did.
I will concede that as I read more into it, I can actually see why you believe this. It's still much too much speculation for me and still doesn't prove to me that he didn't know Judas would betray him when he picked him.

LightBearer said:

[/font]

So you can't or wont answer this question. Fine. By avoiding it you clearly then see the implications of it. If Jesus already knew it makes him a party to theft.[/font]

Regards,

LB

Click to expand...

NOOOOO, I'm not avoiding the question. don't try to twist this around here.

Of course the answer is yes, I would be responsible; but we are not discussing me, we are discussing Jesus; and since we both have radically different ideas on who Jesus was, then the discussion can go no further. I believe that Jesus knew exactly who he was chosing when He chose them, and He did it so that scripture could be fulfilled just as the plan was from THE BEGINNING. I believe that this IN NO WAY holds Him accountable because I do not believe that God is held to the same "standards" as you seem to think He is. I do not believe that the verse in 1Timothy is applicable to any of this. I believe that you cannot prove any of what you are claiming from scripture because it just isn't there. You are going on assumptions on how you believe God SHOULD act. I believe God is in Total Control at all times. I do not believe that God is a hands-off God, letting us do what we "will" and hoping that things turn out the way He wants.
And in light of these beliefs, the debate is at an end.
Regards, Blessed Be

p.s. And if it makes you feel better to think I am avoiding the questions, or that because I no longer feel it is reasonable to go on, it means I must know I'm wrong and don't want to admit it, so be it.

lared said:

It is clear that blessedbe does not know Jehovah nor his Son Jesus as JW's know him. Just as a Jew does not know Jesus the way that a trinitarian knows Jesus.

John 17:3 tells us that everlasting life hinges upon us knowing the only true God Jehovah and the one whom he sent forth Jesus Christ.

There is a united worldwide body of people....no part of the world.....proclaiming the good news of the kingdom.....and practicing Christian neutrality......who know the true God and his Son Jesus.

I prefer the understanding of who the true God Jehovah is and who his Son Jesus is as proclaimed by JW's......for he is a righteous God abundant in truth, and his Son imitates him.

Click to expand...

Yes it is becoming rather clear that I do not know God or Jesus as the JW's do, and for that I believe I am rather thankful. The JW's God is completely dependent upon the whims of mankind. The JW's God also has to operate completely by the understanding of man. He has been put in box of their own understanding. The JW's Jesus was nothing but a man who could have sinned and messed the whole salvation plan up.

MY God is All-powerful, works outside of time and space, does not need to rely on the "will" of man to get accomplished what He Will, and RIGHTEOUS in a way we puny humans will never understand until we die and meet Him face to face. My Jesus was God in Flesh, working to perfect what mankind had lost. I think I prefer my God, even if i don't always understand His plan and purpose, because i know that He is a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God and I am nothing but a human being with limited capacity for understanding His Will.

Behe's Boy said:

You have to read all of the verses surrounding this issue in their entire context. See Mark 3:20-30 as well as Matthew 12:22-37 and then ask the question - what caused Jesus to make such a statement? There are two possibilities here - and personally I think they both apply.

First (and probably most applicable) - the fact of the matter is Jesus was doing the miraculous and the pharisees were attributing his power to the devil. Even though they were speaking blashemy against the Son they were betraying the conviction that was being laid upon their hearts by the Holy Spirit that this was indeed the Son of Man. Speaking against that conviction was more than simple unbelief - it was total rejection in spite of the "obvious" - hence the unpardonable sin.

Second (and this is the "obvious") - is that it was through the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus was performing his miracles (a picture of the Trinity in action). I believe that the Pharisess knew this was God amongst them (because of the Holy Spirit's conviction) and still made the foolish comment that they did in an effort to convince the people that he was not God. It's why they got the harsh reaction they got and why Jesus said in verse 37 of Matthew "For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

In a nutshell - the unpardonable sin is a rejection of Christ as God. Fact of the matter is if Christ were not the Son of Man and God - His death and resurrection would have been pointless. You must know this or your faith is based on a lie.

Hope this helps...

Click to expand...

I've never heard it put this way before, it's very interesting--I'll have to think on this....

daneel said:

Thanks BeHe Boy, I always did figure the same as you posted. As it is a heavy subject, one wants to make sure. One wants to make very sure.


BlessedBe, good posts. Yes, I'm sure Jesus knew who He was picking all along. He chose us too, eh?

<><

Click to expand...

Amen, Daneel! Yes He chose us, too; not by any merit on our part, but by His Good Will. Praise God! I am forever humbled.....

I do think Behe's points are WELL worth considering, and considering very closely......