Is Messianic Judaism the real unabridged form of Christianity?

Esran said:

[/size][/font]

Wow. Did you take analytical English in college? Great interpretation. But still, why would you want to be free of such a beautiful law that was perfected and fulfilled, not abolished, by our Messiah?

Click to expand...

Since Christ was the completion of the law, it is finished. There is no more need for the Law. Messianic Judaism is nothing more than protestant Zionism.

Esran said:

No more need for the law? You must be kidding. Most of the law still stands even in Protestantism.

Click to expand...

Admittedly, I've never sat down and calculated what percentage of the OT Law is encompassed by the Ten Commandments, but I'm gonna guess it's way less than half. These are the only aspects of the OT Law that I've ever heard a Protestant (or Catholic or Orthodox) profess to keeping. We certainly don't eat kosher or stone adulterers, and I'm wearing a poly/cotton blend right now.

Jesus references the Commandments in the New Testament, so they are still binding today. The rest of the Law belongs to an era that is past and a religion that's not supposed to exist anymore.

Esran said:

[/size][/font]

Wow. Did you take analytical English in college? Great interpretation. But still, why would you want to be free of such a beautiful law that was perfected and fulfilled, not abolished, by our Messiah?

Click to expand...

Because it's job as a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ is done. We have no need for ceremonial Law, it has been fulfilled, completed in Christ. This is the Gospel, that those who are alive in Christ fulfill the Law, not by works (these are the works that St. Paul speaks of) of the Law, but through our human nature Mystically joined to His Divine through His Incarnation, death and Resurrection. IOW Christ fulfilled the Law, so that we don't have to. Doing these works (of the Law) makes Christ's work on the Cross to no effect, in effect resacrificing Him who did this once and for all. (c.f. Hebrews 6)

Esran,
I have a few revisions for your list......

1. When one thinks of evangelicals I don't think that episcopal belongs in that category (i think it belongs ion your last category). I have never viewed the episcopal church as being particularly active in evangelizing

2.Mormons have nothing in common with pseudo-catholicism. They are simply protestants (however more heretical than most) in my book.


-Dj hurricane

Oblio said:

Because it's job as a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ is done. We have no need for ceremonial Law, it has been fulfilled, completed in Christ. This is the Gospel, that those who are alive in Christ fulfill the Law, not by works (these are the works that St. Paul speaks of) of the Law, but through our human nature Mystically joined to His Divine through His Incarnation, death and Resurrection. IOW Christ fulfilled the Law, so that we don't have to. Doing these works (of the Law) makes Christ's work on the Cross to no effect, in effect resacrificing Him who did this once and for all. (c.f. Hebrews 6)

Click to expand...

Very good point, Oblio. I feel like to rely on the Law for salvation, even if it's only a part of it, is like a slap in the face of Christ. It is the same as saying that His perfect sacrifice on the cross was not enough to fulfill the Law.

How do the MJ's view salvation? What do they say is required?

I took no college courses. Its simply the truth. I will qoute something from st. macarius in the near future. Relating to this.

hear it is; not the qoute I was thinking of but good none the less: Moses came, but he could not bestow a complete cure. Priests, gifts, tithes, sabbaths, new-moons, washings, sacrifices, burntofferings, and every other righteousness, was performed under the law and the soul could not get cured and cleansed from the unlcean issue of bad thoughts. Every righteousness of the soul was unavailing to heal man, until the saviour came, the true Physician, who cures without cost, who gave himself a ransom for mankind. He alone accomplished the great, saving deliverence and cure of the soul. He set it free from bondage, and brought it out of darkness, glorifying it with his own light. He dried up the fountain of unclean thoughts that was in it. Behold, it says, the Lamb of God, that takethaway the sin of the world.

Is Messianic Judaism the real unabridged form of Christianity? No such person or group exists - everyone places his own spin on the teachings - even the original apostles did so.
Was Catholocism just an attempt to seperate us from the Jews? That separation took place long before Catholicism as such came into existence - the Jewish religion booted the Christian sect out of the synagogues long before Rome gained ascendancy in the west.
Why should we be seperate from the Jews? At the risk of sounding like Pauline Hanson, "Please Explain"

Wow. Did you take analytical English in college? Great interpretation. But still, why would you want to be free of such a beautiful law that was perfected and fulfilled, not abolished, by our Messiah?

When one finishes paying of a mortgage on a house, the loan requirements have been fulfilled. One does not thereafter continue to make mortgage payments. One does not continue to meet any obligation after it has been fulfilled. The end result of fulfilling and of abolishing, in terms of the covenant, is the same.

As to the rest of your query - the section of Hebrews running from chapter 7 (and indeed, from chapter 4) through to well into chapter 10 explains the concepts you address in detail. - significantly Hebrews 8:7 If there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another, but God found fault with the people ... and chapter 8:13 By calling this covenant "new", he made the first obsolete

Hi, Thunderchild.

Thunderchild said:

the real unabridged form of Christianity? [/size][/color][/font]No such person or group exists - everyone places his own spin on the teachings - even the original apostles did so.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but this statement is wrong. I recommend that you this article What is Orthodoxy?

In XC,
Rick

Citing from the text of "What is Orthodoxy"

There is only one Church just as there is One Body of Christ. Therefore, no individuals or groups of people, who are separated from the Church, may live in truth for the creation if new churches and other schisms, lacking unity with the Church of Christ, contradict the teachings of Our Saviour (JOHN 15:4-7)

Click to expand...

I rest my case.

Thunderchild said:

Citing from the text of "What is Orthodoxy"

[/font]

I rest my case.

Click to expand...

What is your case? There is nothing contradictory to what we teach about Orthodoxy in that article. Orthodox Christianity is the fullness of Christianity and the true faith. Outside Orthodoxy there is only half truths and partial Christianity which has been altered by those who do not possess the fullness of truth.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Your view here is not in line with how the Orthodox Church teaches. You group Orthodoxy along with Catholicism. The Roman Catholic Church was once Orthodox, but Orthodoxy was never Roman Catholic. Yes Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism have many outward similiarities and even share the same grouping of sacraments, and look very much like each other. But Orthodoxy has a totally different approach to salvation which is clearly eastern in orientation whereas Roman Catholicism and Protestantism have an approach to salvation which is clearly western in orientation. If you look closely enough, Catholics and Protestants are basically two sides of the same coin and much closer to each other than to Orthodoxy. It is also interesting that you don't group the Anglicans or Lutherans as being protestant when it was the Lutherans and Anglicans who got the reformation going and who did much of the work which would later give rise to the other groups.

The Law no longer stands. Christ made that clear himself. The old Judaic law has been replaced by Christ's law. The Law may or may not stand in much of Protestantism but in Orthodoxy we understand that Christ fulfilled the law and that the Jewish traditions and rituals and practices no longer have any meaning to us. We have been given the truth, and the truth has set us free! Glory be to God!

Esran said:

No more need for the law? You must be kidding. Most of the law still stands even in Protestantism. And I would not classify Messianic Judaism as Protestant.

This is an example of how I classify the Christian Church:

Catholocism
Roman: Roman Catholic
Orthodox: Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox

Judaism
Messianic Judaism: Orthodox Messianic, True Messianic, Reformed Messianic

Protestantism
Baptist: Anabaptist, Southern Baptist, Traditional Baptist
Evangelical: Methodist, Penticostal, Episcaple
Fundamentalists: Church of Christ, God's Way, Benny HinnsD )

Pseudo-Catholocism
Anglican
Lutheran
Mormon
Old Catholic

Some forms of Messianic Judaism are actually almost identical to Orthodoxy in regards to theology from what I've seen, and most Messianic Synagogues are not rooted in dispensationalism.

Click to expand...

As i'm sure many of you know, i'm not thoroughly versed in all orthodox beliefs/traditions/etc. So.....concerning this:

The symbolism of which you speak can all be found (completed) within the liturgy and theology of the Orthodox Church. Pascha (called Easter in the west) is the fulfillment of Passover. Shabbat is truly realized in its full meaning in Christ, and there is no need to cling to incomplete traditions (types and shadows).

Click to expand...

What exactly do you all do for that symbolism which is completed within the liturgy and theology? If I'm not mistaken, the reason the Messianic Jews do those traditions still are to remind them of how the traditions are now completed not unfufilled like they previously were before Christ. The reason that it they now have changed what they say during the procedures, why they now speak of the fulfillment of this when they go through the ceremonial procedures is so that they remind themselves of how Christ has fulfilled the law. I'm not arguing...I just want to know what you are talking about with the symbolism in the liturgy and the theology of Orthodoxy. ::shrug::

The symbolism in the liturgy is like you said to remind us of the fufilment. Matins ( service before liturgy) Has oldtestament readings, (liturgy) has Life of christ, prayers, and newtestament readings. simply stated.

Does the Dove of God perch in the Cross above their Iconistasis?

Does the Eternal Holy Light burn in their souls?

Is walking in to one of their Churches like walking into a furnace of Peaceful Loving Fire; is the Eternal Dazzling Presence of the Lord God most High there?

I ask only rhetorical questions, its up for you to ask God for the Truth!

I don't have time to summarize it right now but an excellent booklet about how Orthodoxy is really the fulfillment of Jewish temple worship and has real continuity from Judaism to Christianity read "Orthodoxy: Jewish and Christian" by Fr. A. James Berstein published by Conciliar Press. It costs less than a $1.00.

Fr. Berntein, whose father was a rabbi in Jerusalem, tells about his conversion to Christianity and about what drew him out of messianic and evangelical circles and into Orthodoxy. It's a good short synopsis. I'll summarize it later, but it's worth the change to pick it up.

Basil

Interesting post vanshan, anyhow something to note:

In very early Apostolic times the three major political parties (or sects) in Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees and Christians (called Nazarenes by the Pharisees who took over Judaism).