CharlesYTK said:
If we look at this point in time referenced to the 1st century, then we see Gentiles DID fully embrace not only Messiah but also the things of Judaism.
Very true. I was posting more in reference to the late 200's and 300's and on, when the "church" rampantly turned from the True Faith -- the Judaism of Yeshua -- back to the greek and roman pagan ways, incorporating and mixing doctrines of hell with the Faith of Yeshua, and ultimately after that time period as the "Faithful" and their masters morphed "Christianity' into something almost entirely devoid of the real Yeshua -- a Jew, who practiced Judaism, the one and only Faith G-d ever handed down for His children to follow, and filled full in the sending of His Messiah/Son -- and His Torah/Word.
It was actually the flood of Gentile into the synagogue with their zeal to begin a Torah observant life that provoked the Jewish resistance to the movement and eventually the rejection of the Gospel and Messiah by the Jews.
Yes and no. There were many things that worked hand in hand to cause this. One of them being that the Believing Jews didn't stand with the non-Believing Jews but fled as Yeshua told them to. This caused the non-Believing Jews to draw a line in the sand, as it were, and essentially say, "you're either with us or not with us. You can't have it both ways." At the same time, the persecution of Jews and the levying of stiff taxes on Jews AND the fact that the Believing Jews were trying to maintain their connection with the non-Believing Jews, who refused to accept their claims to be Jewish any longer... all worked together to separate the Jewish Believers in Yeshua from the Jews who did not accept Yeshua as Messiah.
Because it was so important to them to maintian their Jewish identity without being absorbed into the larger body of men without regard to ethnicity.
G-d told them to maintain their Jewish identity, did He not? The larger body of men should have been absorbed into JUDAISM. Not the other way around (which, you know, of course.) It is likely that as faith in Yeshua spread phenomenally throughout the gentiles, and they flooded the synagogues, perhaps the number of gentile believers so overwhelmed the number of Jewish belivers, and even Jews... perhaps it became the case at some point that there was more "non-Jewish" influence going on than the Jews could counteract... the more one feels one is going to lose something that one should (and rightfully so) hold dear, then the more one begins to ensure that one won't lose it.
So the anti-movement (against the Gospel) began and was fueled by a desire to preserve Jewish identity and to protect Torah from being set aside. (not bad things to fight for in and of themselves) But in the process Messiah and the Gospel which started this sudden influx of Gentiles was in need of rejection, and so Yeshua and the disciples were discredited, and killed in order to preserve Jewish exclusivity.
You realize, of course, that this began long before the gentiles were flooding into the synagogues after Yeshua's
death. All of this began durig Yeshua's ministry. Yeshua and His disciples were discredited long before the gentiles came into the synagogues in droves. The gentiles' coming in was not the cause of Yeshua being rejected -- those who rejected Him practiced Judaism alongside those who accepted Him for a long while before the council of Jamnia.
The result of all this was that the Gentiles looked for a new identity outside of Judaism, because it was obvious that Jews had rejected Messiah in favor of traditions and for Torah.
I've addressed the complex circumstances under which the Believers separated from the non-Believing Jews.
thereore both Jewish traditons and Torah were removed from the doctrine of those who had messiah.
This did not happen simply because the Believing Jews and non-Jews separated from the non-believing Jews. They could have easily kept and maintained the Judaic practices -- and in fact, as I have said here before, believing Jews have existed as individuals and as small groups both within and without Judaism proper since Yeshua came and died and rose. No, this happened because sinful men took their opportunities and chose man's ways and not G-d's. Even in the utter dearth of teaching of any kind of Judaism, one has the plain blueprint to at least -- at LEAST -- but faithful to HaShem on one's own without turning it into idolatry and paganism, in the TaNaCh. The requirements to be righteous outside of being a Jew were few and one didn't even need a TaNaCh to do them -- word of mouth teaching was all that one would need for such a basic level.
And the great division takes place. In the midst of all this was that ever present remnant. These were called heretics and were hunted down and murdered or driven into hiding in the Mountains of Pella and throughout the world.
Just a reminder -- but by whom? By the very same sinful men who fused their pagan traditions into the "church" they created, and called "holy". My point here in all this is that people chose this path, have chosen to deceive and to thwart the truth of the Messiah -- a Jew who not only practiced Judaism but upheld it as the faith to which His followers were to adhere. Did people choose it under G-d's direction? I can't see that at all. Would G-d chose -- ever -- for His followers to be decieved as to Who He is, Who His Salvation is, What He expects of His children, the blessings He has set forth for us? Can we say -- "it was G-d who caused us to stumble!" *shudder* "It was G-d's Will that we not know Him in Truth!" *
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Their tradition is largely an oral traditon handed down father to son. It fully embraces the validity of Torah and the person of Messiah, the embodiment of Torah in flesh.
Understood and agreed. There were definitely remnant believers... it's funny to me how many people who are practicing paganized Christianity to whatever degree without grasping that the Torah is essential, want to claim to be that "remnant". I know of various Christian denominations who claim to trace their faith lineages back to those true believers who kept the One True Faith... but they don't any of them, follow Torah... though a number have understood the lie of the Sabbath day being nullified and the "sun"day worship being insituted.
Anyway... sorry, I rambled again. :o
