Luke and Acts are not inspired

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Aaron11 said:
How did God choose what to put in the bible and what to leave out? (I don't mean why would he put some in and leave others out. I mean, how did He tell you and I which books are inspired?


Aaron,

God did not instruct me to write or translate any of the Epsitles, Yet, he did say that HE would perserve His Words.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? V 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to Him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? V21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass ( lump) one vessel of beauty and distinction and honourable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonoralbe use?

Titus 1:1-3 Paul, A servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledgement of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of etenal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested His Word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour.

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethern, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the tradition which he recieved of us .

I Thess 2:13... When ye recieve the word of God which ye heard of us, ye recieved it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God , which effecturally worketh also in you that believe.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you to fulfil the word of God .

Is God's Wisdom higher than Man? Do you believe that He chose Paul as a vessel of Honor Acts 9:15. Can he not chose anyone He desires?


We have to trust and have faith in God. These books has been test through much trial and time, God knows what he wants for us and has guided those he appointed to but the book together. God CANNOT lie.
 
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I wonder why if God promised us a perfect book in the future, why He did not tell us about it. I know you say that His words will be preserved, and I buy that. However, who is to say that those words are the bible, and no other words are left out?

The point is, you basically have to believe that the men who put the bible together were inspired. I hear some people who believe this. Is this what you believe?
 
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Aaron11 said:
I wonder why if God promised us a perfect book in the future, why He did not tell us about it. I know you say that His words will be preserved, and I buy that. However, who is to say that those words are the bible, and no other words are left out?

The point is, you basically have to believe that the men who put the bible together were inspired. I hear some people who believe this. Is this what you believe?
II Tim 3:16-17 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by INSPIRIATON OF GOD and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteounesss.

yes, I believe it, It is scriptural. Paul was given the assignment to "fulfil the Word of God" and God is not man that He would lie. God has given us to that which has ordain for us. Why is that difficult for you to believe and have faith in God? Do you believe man's will and desire is more powerful than God's?

Aaron,

The point is that you MUST BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD, if you put your faith in man you will be disappointed. God can do what He has promise.

Scriptures that state God is capable of perserving that knowledge He ordains for His Saints.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of HIS WILL, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which he HATH PURPOSED in HIMSELF.

Eph 1:11......According to the PURPOSE of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.


Prv 22:12 The eyes of the Lord keep guard over Knowledge and him who has it, but HE overthrows the words of the treacherous.

Ps 12:6 The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnance, purified even times over
v7 You will keep them and preserve them, O Lord; You will guard and keep us from this evil generation forever


Ps 119:137 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.

Ish 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; It shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing wherto I sent it.

Ish 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 
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Philip

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Debi said:
]Excuse me, But you are the one to bring up that there were oral scriptures that we should be observing.

And I have offered Scripture to document the oral teachings of the Apostles. Do you have any evidence that all of the Apostles' teaching was written down?

If you believe that "the Bible" is not the Written Word for us to follow as from God, that is surely your choice. If you want to show me where Paul was speaking of other traditions and orally teaching that were given to us to follow, do so by the written word.

I believe that Scripture is the center of the Sacred Tradition handed down by the Apostles. I have offered Scriptural proof of the two fold ( written and unwritten ) nature of this tradition. For example, see my sig. You have yet to offer any evidence that all of the Apostles' teachings were written down. Do you have any evidence?

Paul said beware of those that stray from the which you were taught. His epistles.

Once again, St Paul made it quite clear that we are to maintain all he taught. As my sig demonstrates, some of that was in the Epistles. So of it was by word of mouth.

Now, to answer your question about the Gates of hell will not prevail.....

I believe in a Soveriegn God. He is able to perserve His scriptures and Direct those who translated it to carry out HIS plan.

No one is claiming that God is not able to preserve His Scriptures. Rather, I am asking why did He promise to preserve the Church? Why didn't He make the same promise for His written words?

Let me also direct you to a scripture concerning Paul and his assignment from God.........
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is GIVEN TO ME for YOU to FULFIL THE WORD OF GOD


You do realize that the Greek word used here, logos refers to the spoken word, not the written, don't you?

Then Paul goes on to write:
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Again, Paul speaks of oral teaching, not the written word.

If the direction of the study is to question whether "the lost books" which are not lost, should have been added to the bible and/or the translations are not correct, yes, I would doubt that God is directing them to study outside and into scriptures he did not ordarin for us.

Colossians 4:16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, gives explicit instructions to the Colossians to read an Epistle that does not appear in the Bible. Why is that?

BTW, I am still waiting for Scripture that states that Scripture contains all we need to know of God.


To say that Paul forgot to give us his teaching, which I remind you HE was APPOINTED by GOD to deliver the gospel to us, and example the Gospel to the other apostles because it had not been fully revealed to them, is beyond me when Paul stated his assignment.

No one is claiming that Pail forgot to deliver anything. Rather, I am stating that he did not write it all down. Paul himself wrote that we were to keep what was taught by word of mouth. Even Christ instructed the Apostles to teach. He never instructed them to write.

Other scriptures that state God is capable of perserving that knowledge He ordains for His Saints.

Again, no one is questioning God's ability to preserve His word. Rather, I question is He chose to preserve it all in a written form.

Ish 46:10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE AND PURPOSE.

Counsel: etsah in Hebrew. It means "advice" or "purpose". No indication of written word.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of HIS WILL, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which he HATH PURPOSED in HIMSELF.[/qoute]

No indication of written word.

Eph 1:11......According to the PURPOSE of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.

No indication of the written word.

Prv 22:12 The eyes of the Lord keep guard over Knowledge and him who has it, but HE overthrows the words of the treacherous.

Knowledge: da`ath means knowledge, skill or wisdom. There is no indication of the written word.

Words: dabar means "a speech" or "a saying". It makes no reference to written words.

Ps 12:6 The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnance, purified even times over
v7 You will keep them and preserve them, O Lord; You will guard and keep us from this evil generation forever

Word: 'imrah or 'emrah refers specifically to a spoken word or utterance. This passage absolutely does not refer to the written word.

Ps 119:33 Order my steps in thy word: and let not my iniquity have dominion over me.
Ps 119:137 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.
Ps 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concering all things to be right; and I hate ever false way.

Word: mitsvah means "a commandment" It may or may not be written. It applies equally well to both the spoken and written word.

Testimonies: 'edah "testimony or witness" This term is usually used in a legal manner. It refers to what is offered by a witness: oral testimony,

Ish 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; It shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing wherto I sent it.
Ish 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

word: dabar A spoken word or utterence. A speech. Even Isaiah recorded that this refers to what comes out of God's mouth, not the written word.

The scriptures I have given should answer any further question regarding the words used, why God wanted the translators to use them etc etc etc

They sure do say a lot about the spoken word. However, none of them refer to the written word. Furthermore, even if they did refer to the written word, none of them state that the written word is all that we need.
 
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Philip

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Debi said:
God did not instruct me to write or translate any of the Epsitles, Yet, he did say that HE would perserve His Words.

Only His written words, or the spoken ones as well? Lets see what the Scriptures you quoted have to say:

Rom 9:19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? V 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to Him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? V21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass ( lump) one vessel of beauty and distinction and honourable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonoralbe use?

No mention of words here, either written or spoken.

Titus 1:1-3 Paul, A servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledgement of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of etenal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested His Word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour.

Word: Logos in Greek. It refers to a spoken words, a speak, teachings, or the thoughts in one's mind. It does not refer to writings.

Preaching: kerugma in Greek. The proclamation of a herald or public crier. In others words, spoken, not written.

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethern, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the tradition which he recieved of us .

Traditions: paradosis in Greek, refers to both spoken and written teachings. It should be pointed out that the Jewish scholars (such as Paul) used the word paradosis to refer to the oral teachings of Moses.

I Thess 2:13...When ye recieve the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God , which effecturally worketh also in you that believe.

"Which you heard"? Sounds like oral teaching again. By the way, "word" in this passage is logos. I addressed its meaning above.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you to fulfil the word of God
.

logos, again.

Again, all of the verses you have offered refer to the oral teachings of the Apostles. You have yet to offer any evidence that all of their teachings were written down. In fact, the verses you have posted seem to argue the other way, that the Apostles passed some of their teachings on orally. Couldn't God preserve these oral teachings as well? On what basis do you claim that He hasn't?
 
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Philip

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Debi said:
The point is that you MUST BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD, if you put your faith in man you will be disappointed. God can do what He has promise.

Scriptures that state God is capable of perserving that knowledge He ordains for His Saints.

Here, you are completely correct. God has preserved all of the knowledge that He handed down. However, there is nowhere in Scripture that indicates that all of that knowledge was written down. Much of it has been preserved orally.
 
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Aaron11 said:
You are little confused on what I am asking. I am not asking whether Luke and Acts are accurate. I believe them to be accurate. I do not see reason to think that they are inspired and I see reason to think that they aren't. This does not mean that I don't think they are an accurate record of Christ's life and the acts of the apostles.

Maybe we should clarify this argument a little more. I don't think that God dictated every word of the bible. I don't think that God told Luke what to write in some miraculous form.

Furthermore, I do not think that God dictated the words of Paul. I think that God manifested His spirit in Paul and I am confident that Paul had a great understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I speak of "inspiration", I am speaking of a "God-worded text".

Aaron11,

If the books of Luke and Acts are accurate like you say, then are there any particular verses in those books that you do not belief, follow, or obey? If so, which ones?

So, are you saying that Paul was freelancing, and not preaching and writing under the Holy Spirit's direction? What basis do you have to make that conclusion?

FC
 
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Florida College said:
Aaron11,

If the books of Luke and Acts are accurate like you say, then are there any particular verses in those books that you do not belief, follow, or obey? If so, which ones?

Yes.

Luke 5:4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, "Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch."

There is an example of a command that I do not follow that is recorded in the accurate account of Luke.

 
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Dominus Fidelis

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Jesaiah said:
In the year 397 at the Council of Carthage the books that now comprise Scripture, both the Old and New Testaments, were prescribed as the limit of the canon.

As for the idea of not following tradition, I must ask why do you even read the Bible at all? How do you know any of it is inspired? As Filosofer said, the criteria that you use to try and "disprove" the inspiration of the books of Acts and Luke would also "disprove" the inspiration of many books in our Protestant Bible. Therefore it would seem prudent to study the history of the canon of Scripture and the criteria used to judge inspiration before making hasty assertions. :sorry:

Again I must say I am aghast that one would whimsically pick or choose what books of the Bible are inspired or not, based upon a faulty criteria.

So do you use a Catholic Bible, with ALL the books from the Council in 397?
 
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Aaron11 said:
Yes.

Luke 5:4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, "Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch."

There is an example of a command that I do not follow that is recorded in the accurate account of Luke.

[/color]
What do you believe this command says?
 
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Knight said:
What do you believe this command says?
The command is not mystical or hidden. The command says to put your nets into deep water. The point is, the Bible wasn't all written directly to me, to Knight, to Florida College, or to any particular person. Instead, it was written to Theopholis, the Romans, Corinthians, Jews, Timothy, the seven churches of Asia, etc. This means that we have to take the Bible in its proper context and gather the principles behind the teachings to apply the principles to our lives.
 
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