Scienece vs Church: Evolution

tof

Regular Member
Sep 24, 2002
300
14
53
Lyon, France
Visit site
✟16,109.00
Faith
Atheist
Politics
US-Others
<rant>
St Augustine said to early Christians :
"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens,
and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of
the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge
he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus
offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk
nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based
in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an
embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in
the Christian and laugh to scorn."

I wish american atheists would find someone to tell them :
"Often a Christian knows something about the basic tenets of his religious faith,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for a believer to hear an atheist talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based
in Science. We should do all that we can to avoid such an
embarrassing situation, lest the believer see only ignorance in
the atheist and laugh to scorn."

IMHO, the fact that american atheists still use the obvious strawman that consists of equating Chritianity to YEC is as much a problem as the existence of organizations like AIG or ICR. These atheists appear as much uneducated and dishonest as the common creationist, when they hijack science like their opponents hijack the Bible. None of them appear to research a mutual understanding, but instead try to push their beliefs on others.
</rant>
 
Upvote 0

DGB454

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2003
129
0
57
Mich
Visit site
✟7,749.00
Faith
Christian
Is it just me or does it seem like a lot of people waste a lot of their short "evolved" life trying to convert creationist to their way of thinking?

I believe that animals and the earth evolved over time but were originally created by God but man was created in God's image(Not evolved man into his own image). I see no reason to change that belief and I have never seen an arguement that is sufficient to to shake that belief yet.(I have heard them all too)

Hopefully that didn't sound too pompous. ;)
 
Upvote 0

wblastyn

Jedi Master
Jun 5, 2002
2,664
114
38
Northern Ireland
Visit site
✟11,265.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
DGB454 said:
Is it just me or does it seem like a lot of people waste a lot of their short "evolved" life trying to convert creationist to their way of thinking?
No one cares if you are a creationist, the people here are just trying to show you (and anyone else who reads these threads) why the arguements for creationism are false.

I believe that animals and the earth evolved over time but were originally created by God but man was created in God's image(Not evolved man into his own image). I see no reason to change that belief and I have never seen an arguement that is sufficient to to shake that belief yet.(I have heard them all too)
Otherwise you would have to accept that fact that you are a "dirty" animal.
 
Upvote 0

DGB454

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2003
129
0
57
Mich
Visit site
✟7,749.00
Faith
Christian
wblastyn said:
No one cares if you are a creationist, the people here are just trying to show you (and anyone else who reads these threads) why the arguements for creationism are false.


Otherwise you would have to accept that fact that you are a "dirty" animal.

So I'm guessing that you are one of those people who waste too much of your "evolved" life on trying to convert me? I would suggest you get a real life then and stop wasting it. If your beliefs are true then your time is short.Wheras if my beliefs are true then I have all the time in the universe.

The "fact" I am a dirty animal? There is no fact to the theory I evolved from an animal. I do see a lot of evidence that animals evolved but not man.
 
Upvote 0

wblastyn

Jedi Master
Jun 5, 2002
2,664
114
38
Northern Ireland
Visit site
✟11,265.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
DGB454 said:
So I'm guessing that you are one of those people who waste too much of your "evolved" life on trying to convert me? I would suggest you get a real life then and stop wasting it. If your beliefs are true then your time is short.Wheras if my beliefs are true then I have all the time in the universe.
I just said I didn't care if you are a creationist.

I don't think it's very Christ like to brag about going to heaven to someone who you think is going to hell. Anyway, I am a Christian and I accept evolution.

The "fact" I am a dirty animal? There is no fact to the theory I evolved from an animal. I do see a lot of evidence that animals evolved but not man.
Scientific Theories are made up of many facts (data).

Not only did you evolve from animals but you ARE an animal, you belong to kingdom animalia.

We have a lot of evidence for human evolution. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
 
Upvote 0

Evo

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2003
731
2
Bible Belt
✟891.00
DGB454 said:
So I'm guessing that you are one of those people who waste too much of your "evolved" life on trying to convert me? I would suggest you get a real life then and stop wasting it. If your beliefs are true then your time is short.Wheras if my beliefs are true then I have all the time in the universe.

The "fact" I am a dirty animal? There is no fact to the theory I evolved from an animal. I do see a lot of evidence that animals evolved but not man.

"Wasting time" tyring to educate ignrant people, is about the best way anyone could ever waste time. This type of attidude is the reason my country (USA) is dead last in the scientific standards in our educational system. Lord forbid you might actually gain a little knowledge, with someone "wasting there time". What a pathetic wall your trying to put up agianst a very intelligent individual (wblastyn) who is trying to point out your own hipocracy. I'll except evolution up untill it says i'm an animal.

If you really want to know all the evidence as i'm sure you don't. read this

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#past_biogeography_ex3

it will change your life, unless you fear what is known.
 
Upvote 0

Evo

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2003
731
2
Bible Belt
✟891.00
tof said:
<rant>
St Augustine said to early Christians :
"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens,
and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of
the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge
he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus
offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk
nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based
in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an
embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in
the Christian and laugh to scorn."

I wish american atheists would find someone to tell them :
"Often a Christian knows something about the basic tenets of his religious faith,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for a believer to hear an atheist talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based
in Science. We should do all that we can to avoid such an
embarrassing situation, lest the believer see only ignorance in
the atheist and laugh to scorn."

IMHO, the fact that american atheists still use the obvious strawman that consists of equating Chritianity to YEC is as much a problem as the existence of organizations like AIG or ICR. These atheists appear as much uneducated and dishonest as the common creationist, when they hijack science like their opponents hijack the Bible. None of them appear to research a mutual understanding, but instead try to push their beliefs on others.
</rant>

What does this have to do with anything in this post? on this forum? did you just pop down out of the sky with this idea? did this make sense when you typed it, and now that you reread it sounds kind of funny?

It makes no sense to me. Christianity is not held togather by certanity from reason and experience..... its all faith.

It is thus offensive and disgraceful for a believer to hear an atheist talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based based in Science.

What do atheist as a whole claim that is nonsense? what is science? you put this label on everything like its science and just disregard it, but what is the true meaning of science?

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Neither side is hijacking anything. Your the one who hijacked the bible, your the one who chooses to interpert it as you wish, your the hertic. You disregard whole chapters, whole books, and just skip to the meat of it all...... salvation. The only thing that matters to you in your preciously little world is getting eternity, which nobody deserves. I personally have more respect for creationist than i do liberal christians. Because at least they have the gaul to stand by what they believe. At least they admit to shutting the blinds of reason and tunneling on the bible. If i were to dismiss it i would dismiss it all, not the parts i feel are right. that's intaletual dishonisty! Its like being friends with somebody for some of the time, that's not true friendship.
 
Upvote 0
... this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience...(St Augustine ).


What the venerated St Augustine is describing is knowledge that is clear, distinct and certain, in and of itself. Not the obscure modern mythology of natural sciences elaborate illusion called evolution. I dont know where this quote came from but anyone wanting to understand St Augustine has to understand that all knowledge and wisdom (reason, experience) proceded from God. He was not talking about the obscure rationalizations of nature called evolution.

Certainty from reason vs. mythology:

First off evolution is not based on anything remotely resembling 'certainty' and it has never been 'experienced by any scientist. If you cant dazzle them, baffle them. Thats how any good myth works, shrouded in mysterious cryptic verbiage the impossible becomes possible, or so it would seem. There has been no transition from one species to another and paleontogists know this. Thats why the time line must be streached out so far, because thats the only way to explain the missing pieces of the scientific puzzle. And there are not one or two, there are thousands at critical stages of development. Here is one brilliant piece of verbiage that rationalizes the absence of transitional fossils:

"In an effort to defend at all costs his beloved concept of “punctuated equilibrium” (invented with the assistance of Niles Eldredge), Gould frequently made comments such as these:

(1) The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection, we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study (1977a, 86[5]:14).

(2) All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt (1977b, 86[6]:24).

(3) Contrary to popular myths, Darwin and Lyell were not the heroes of true science.... Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin’s argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection, we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study (1977a,86[5]:12,14).http://www.apologeticspress.org/docsdis/2002/dc-02-sa01.htm

Its a mistake to assume that the fossils are the reason for this, evolution is an attack on theism, and an obvious one. Thats why the word Creationism has become the antithesis of evolution, natural science wanted rid of God as Creator. In its place they installed arguments of science falsely so called. Darwin made it clear what his intentions were in the iintroduction of his Orgin of a Species. "Although much remains obscure, and will long remain obscure, I can entertain no doubt, after the most deliberate study and dispassionate judgement of which I am capable, that the view which most naturalists entertain, and which I formerly entertained -- namely, that each species has been independently created -- is erroneous. " (Darwin, Origin of Species). That special creation concept had to go even if what he would contrive was 'obscue, and will remain obscure'. Nothing like tossing out knowledge that is clear, distinct, and certain in favor of the obscure. Darwin's bulldog admitted there were no transitional fossils, he is almost bragging about it, "It is our clear conviction that: as the evidence stands it is not absolutely proven that a group of animals having all the characteristics as exhibited by species in nature has ever been originated by selection, to the natural or artificial." (Huxley, Lay Sermons) I have to wonder how Darwin's endless banter about finches has anything to do with the origin of life, but thats the whole point here, remove the primary first cause. Here we have what Bacon called “dogmas of philosophy and wrong laws of demonstration, not only entire systems but many principles of science” (Titus, Discussions in Philosophy). The science here is flawed at its center, sorting through the so called evidence is a wild goose chase. Its a distraction from the primary purpose of evolution, to remove God from the metaphysics of natural science.
 
Upvote 0

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Then I take it Oholiab that you are agnostic since God cannot be proven at any level with absolute and unbiased certainty.

You must also do not believe in your own existence since the existence of anything including yourself and the universe cannot be proven.

You are free to believe that evolution is false, but let’s not lie about our reasons Oholiab, it is an unbecoming behavior for a Christian.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jonfleck

Road Runner
Jul 27, 2003
4
0
41
Northern Ireland
✟15,114.00
Faith
Christian
Evo said:
If we all lived in 1654 we would be aruging that the sun can not possibley be the center of our solar system. And we would still be arguing weather or not the world was truly flat. We would say oh..... its possible that columbus imagined his journey and went south. "How could anyone possibly know that the world is flat without launching into outerspace?" one might say. All of you fundies would attack his credibility like you do to darwin. "If you look at the earth is clearly flat and not round...."

You would conceed that if the world was truly sperical....christianity is a lie, and that's why you would fight it to the bitter end. Now fast foward a few generations later who acknowldge the round earth, but fight evolution like its the end of christianity..... but its not people (wbstlyn) will find away around it. As you have found a way around the 'flat earth' idea.

Learn from history...... accept evolution in our schools and go from there.


I've only as yet read the 1st page, but....

Evo - The Bible doesn't and never has said the world is flat. The Bible doesn't and never has said that the Earth is the centre of the universe. It does however say that Creation happened in 6days with the 7th a rest day (I believe that God was here setting the blueprint for how we should live our lives)
 
Upvote 0
So Im being intellectually self decieved by believing that proof in natural science has to be clear, certain and distinct, in and of itself. I have to be an agnostic because God cannot be proven. God is the self evident, a priori, first cause evolution is pretending to be. I think the primary philosophy here is the metaphysics of the transendentalist. This is the work of mysticism not science, the myth makers are now in ivory towers of state support universities. The only thing that is changed is they no longer wear robes. The contention of Hume that the log being on fire has nothing to do with it being reduced to ashes. This is a stab into the heart of reason at its source, causation.

Whenever we find someone saying that no one can know anything, it’s only natural to wonder whether [or how] the skeptic knows this”. According to David Hume empirical reason is so important it negates our idea of reality but our idea of self. “It cannot therefore be from any of these impressions (pain, pleasure, grief, joy, passions, sensations) or from any other that the idea of self is derived; consequently there is no such idea. This is so obvious it almost goes without saying but to refute this all you have to do is walk into a room where Hume is sitting and say ‘I’m looking for David Hume’. If he so much as think ‘I’m David Hume’ he proves by that very thought that he has an idea of self. He even has a name for it, he calls it David Hume. This is not just a question of but knowledge itself is suspect. “That all our ideas are nothing but copies of our impressions, or in other words. That tis impossible for us to think of anything that we have not antecedently felt”. You go into a machine shop with this kind of thinking you not only will have wheels with spokes missing, they will have no hubs.
East is east and west is west and never the two shall meet except in empirical and Buddhist thinking. Suzuki, a Buddhist scholar writes: “So we are told that the pleasures and pains they are transitory, like Maya. They have no substantial reality… If Im asked then what Zen teaches, I would answer, Zen teaches nothing. On a later page he writes; the famous gatha (saying) of Jeyne by no means exhausts all Zen teaches. So what does Zen teach, something or nothing? Admittedly logic has its limitations and not everything has to have an antithesis but I can’t accept that Zen teaches something and nothing at the same time. This is what happens when you abandon substantive reason; your circles have no true centers.(quotes for Hume and Suzuki taken from McDowell, Evidence that Demands a verdict).

"If we all lived in 1654 we would be aruging that the sun can not possibly be the center of our solar system"

This statement is utter nonsense and basless. The Heliocentric model had been not just postulated but observed with conclusive clarity between 1608 and 1610. When Galileo first observed the heavens with a teloscope that magnified up to 35 times what he observed conflicted with the dogma of Rome. Actually Christians had been suffering under for almost a century under the brutal repression of Rome and her arguments of science falsely so called. It took the Protestant reformation and the Thrity Years War to finally break the political straglehold on Europe. Evolution is a lie perpetrated the same way Romes metaphysics confused the mind and numbed the senses. BTW Columbus never thought the world was flat, he just didnt know there was a whole continant between him and China. Educated people in Europe had been useing Euclidian Geometry to measure the Earth for at least 1000 years in Galileo wanted to measure the heavens. While Galileo languished in his luxury house arrest thousands of Christian's were killed fighting Rome's tyranny. Where were the atheists when it would cost you your life to defy Rome? They came along later and made Rome into their strawman as if they had been the ones to defy and defeat Rome. This is a lie.
 
Upvote 0

DGB454

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2003
129
0
57
Mich
Visit site
✟7,749.00
Faith
Christian
wblastyn said:
I just said I didn't care if you are a creationist.

I don't think it's very Christ like to brag about going to heaven to someone who you think is going to hell. Anyway, I am a Christian and I accept evolution.


Scientific Theories are made up of many facts (data).

Not only did you evolve from animals but you ARE an animal, you belong to kingdom animalia.

We have a lot of evidence for human evolution. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

I agree it's not Christ like. I am glad I am going to heaven.I don't judge you on whether or not you are going.God does that all by himself. I accept evolution in animals and a certain amount in humans depending on their climate but not that they were evolved from ape or whatever. Where is the "missing link"?

I realize I am an animal but I am not an animal without a soul.
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
40
Visit site
✟21,317.00
Faith
Taoist
"First off evolution is not based on anything remotely resembling 'certainty' and it has never been 'experienced by any scientist."

So you mean, the observations of a bugs ability to eat Nylon.
The observations of Evolution being put into a computer and evolving a radio.
The observations of Speciation.
(the list could go on)
Are all false?

"There has been no transition from one species to another and paleontogists know this."

We have Observed speciation. So this is false.

"[3 quotes]"

I find it very interesting you post those quotes, instead of:

"But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life's physical genealogy." Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994

"Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups." Stephen Jay Gould, Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, p.261


"evolution is an attack on theism, and an obvious one."

Yep, thats what ive figured, your fighting the Theism vs Atheism battle.
Well, maybe the lies about evolution you have been told are an attack on theism, but Real evolution is not.
Explain to me why the Majority of christians are Theistic evolutionists?

One thing to note, you posted something about evolution trying to take god from the begining. You obviously dont understand evolution, and thats where your beliefs it attacks theism probably comes from. The Theory of evolution has Nothing to do with the begining of the Universe. And the Theory that does have to do with the begining of the universe, The Big Bang, does Not take away god either.

"from the primary purpose of evolution, to remove God from the metaphysics of natural science."

Welcome to "lets back up your claim"

Please Show Us, how the Primary purpose of Evolution is to remove god?
:)

I hope I actually get a response to this, unlike the last time I responded to one of your posts.


Oholiab said:
 
Upvote 0

tof

Regular Member
Sep 24, 2002
300
14
53
Lyon, France
Visit site
✟16,109.00
Faith
Atheist
Politics
US-Others
Evo said:
What does this have to do with anything in this post? on this forum? did you just pop down out of the sky with this idea? did this make sense when you typed it, and now that you reread it sounds kind of funny?
I was feeling like ranting after reading this thread, so sue me.
It makes no sense to me. Christianity is not held togather by certanity from reason and experience..... its all faith.
You generalize from "a Christian" to "Christianity". To me, the faith of a Christian is founded on personal experience and is held through reason. You choose to characterize it otherwise, that's your call.
What do atheist as a whole claim that is nonsense? what is science? you put this label on everything like its science and just disregard it, but what is the true meaning of science?

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Neither side is hijacking anything. Your the one who hijacked the bible, your the one who chooses to interpert it as you wish, your the hertic. You disregard whole chapters, whole books, and just skip to the meat of it all...... salvation. The only thing that matters to you in your preciously little world is getting eternity, which nobody deserves. I personally have more respect for creationist than i do liberal christians. Because at least they have the gaul to stand by what they believe. At least they admit to shutting the blinds of reason and tunneling on the bible. If i were to dismiss it i would dismiss it all, not the parts i feel are right. that's intaletual dishonisty! Its like being friends with somebody for some of the time, that's not true friendship.
If you reread my rant, you will notice that it's directed at american atheists. I'm an atheist, but I'm French, and as Freodin wrote, this creationism nonsense is an american problem, not a Christian one. And even though there are more atheists in Europe, there are virtually no creationists among european Christians, who represent a majority of the population.
You continue to misrepresent Christianity as an out-of-reality cult and ignore that St Augustine, as soon as the 3rd century CE, did not support a literal reading of Genesis, and that it's not until late 19th, early 20th century that such a literal reading has developed, at first in the USA, then, through american evangelicals, to other anglophone countries.
That you have less respect for liberal Christians (ie: theistic evolutionists) shows that you are not looking for a common ground with people who have different beliefs. By choosing to remain antagonistic, you are contributing to the creationist "evolution is atheism" mantra, and as long as this misunderstanding remains, there will be political pressures against the teaching of evolution, because whether you like it or not, Christians are a majority in your country, and they vote.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DGB454

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2003
129
0
57
Mich
Visit site
✟7,749.00
Faith
Christian
Evo said:
"Wasting time" tyring to educate ignrant people, is about the best way anyone could ever waste time. This type of attidude is the reason my country (USA) is dead last in the scientific standards in our educational system. Lord forbid you might actually gain a little knowledge, with someone "wasting there time". What a pathetic wall your trying to put up agianst a very intelligent individual (wblastyn) who is trying to point out your own hipocracy. I'll except evolution up untill it says i'm an animal.

If you really want to know all the evidence as i'm sure you don't. read this

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#past_biogeography_ex3

it will change your life, unless you fear what is known.

So you consider me ignorant? Maybe I do have a bad attitude towards the non creation theory people but they are far worse than any Christian extremest trying to "force their beliefs down the throats of the non Christians". They don't get it that we understand their views and understand their logic but aren't swayed by their arguements. We are grounded in the Word of God and nothing can change that.

By the way. I accept evolution until it comes to humans also.

I fear nothing accept God.
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
40
Visit site
✟21,317.00
Faith
Taoist
DGB454: You probably would be closer classified as an Evolutionist than a creationist.
you believe in Creation.
But that doesnt mean you are a Creationist.

Except for your belief that Humans didnt evolve, if you believe in evolution, you are a theistic Evolutionist.

Its nice to know that Evolutionists are worse than Fanatics, thanks. :rolleyes:
Now, can you show us how?
 
Upvote 0
"Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups." Stephen Jay Gould, Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, p.261


Hen's teeth, horses toes and finches adapting and changing is not a lower primate becoming man. BTW I did support my statement by quoting your heros Darwin and Stephen Jay Gould. Like I said, the trasitional fossil is a myth supported by dogma of philosophy not actual science.
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
40
Visit site
✟21,317.00
Faith
Taoist
So, why out of all of my response did you only reply to this?
You have yet to answer my challenge to back up your claim at the end of my post.

Evolution is about more than just a lower primate becoming man.
They arent my heros.
I find it funny that you only selectivly quoted them.

So, tell me, whats a "transitional fossil" ?

Care to answer my challenge to support your claim that the Theory of Evolution is an attack against god?

Oholiab said:
"Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups." Stephen Jay Gould, Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, p.261


Hen's teeth, horses toes and finches adapting and changing is not a lower primate becoming man. BTW I did support my statement by quoting your heros Darwin and Stephen Jay Gould. Like I said, the trasitional fossil is a myth supported by dogma of philosophy not actual science.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums