Dispensationalism and the pre-trib Rapture

I've noticed that many dispy's are also pre-tribbers. What exactly is the connection? I don't see how they're related. Someone once told me taht in order to be dispensationalist, you must hold to a pre-trib rapture, and vice versa. That doesn't make any sense.

I hold to both, but for Biblical reasons, not doctrinal. I just didn't see the connection. Thanks. TTYL Jesus loves you!

The pre-trib dispensational position is the only dispensationalist position that maintains Christ's imminent return at any moment, whereas the mid-tribs and post-trib dispensationalists are waiting for something to happen first.

The big basis for it is the hardline seperation between the Church and Israel. Since they maintain that the tribulation is Daniels 70th week and since the 70 weeks are for the Jews only, then the Church needs to beemed up first.

As progressive dispensationalism becomes more dominant I think the pretrib rapture will die too...course I think Dispensationalism's total demise is only a couple of decades away.

I'm writing an apologetics book covering 5 point Calvinism, the Trinity, God's existence, pretty much everything, and my prime emphases are on Calvinism, pre-tribulationism, and dispensationalism. Hopefully it'll help people to embrace dispensational thought and pre-tribulationism (and it's emphasis on evangelism), but most importantly Calvinism.

Thank you. That answer actually helps tremendously. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies

1thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

Marriage of Christ and the Church in Heaven
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb And he saith unto me , These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship Him. And he said unto me, see thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the tesimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy . Matt 22:1-14, eph 5:25-27, john 3:29

Who got married???? in heaven???? Before Christ 2nd coming

Rev 19:11-16 2nd coming of Christ



Matt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour where in the Son of man cometh.

Question if we know that when the Man Of Lawlessness sits on the throne at 3 1/2 years from the second coming what is this verse talking about ........?

RAPTURE

We are not to know the day or the hour and I believe this as it is the Word of God. Jesus did not know. He sill does not know but is anxiously waiting to gather us unto him (2 Thes 2:1, Rev 14:14-20). There is an event (2 Thes 2:3) holding back the angel that gives our Lord the Word to thrust in his sickle to reap the earth. After this (2 Thes 2:1) God's wrath is come and another reaping takes place in Rev 14:19.
As to the day or hour is of this event (Rev. 14:14-16) we do not know. As to the year, month, or week I suggest that we will be able to almost know. I say this, almost know, for one reason, we have all the events given and we should know, if we are avid Bible students.

TWells said:

The big basis for it is the hardline seperation between the Church and Israel. Since they maintain that the tribulation is Daniels 70th week and since the 70 weeks are for the Jews only, then the Church needs to beemed up first.

As progressive dispensationalism becomes more dominant I think the pretrib rapture will die too...course I think Dispensationalism's total demise is only a couple of decades away.

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The demise of dispensationalism is concurrent with the Church recovering its true identity as one body in Christ. The major error of dispensationalism is not its goofy eschatology. That is only the logical outcome of a low ecclesiology and a weak Christology. The foundational doctrine of the Church is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Dispensationalism, however, makes of this doctrine little more than an historical benchmark rather than an eschatological event foreshadowing the (general) resurrection of the dead. The Church embodies the hope of the whole creation (Romans 8) as it carries on the work of redemption which Christ began with the Incarnation. Dispensationalism, however, sees the Church as God's "Plan B," essentially something God made up on the fly after the Jews rejected Jesus.

Dispensationalism is simply incompatible with orthodox ecclesiology and Christology. It has understandable appeal to those who see the Church as a "voluntary organization" or as an "insurance policy" against fiery judgment. But its underlying tenets are not reconcilable with the traditional view of the Church as a living organism, the Body of Christ, involved in an ongoing mission of redemption which will be accomplished in the midst of--and in spite of--persecution, tribulation, suffering, and martyrdom. In the end, the righteous will be vindicated in the resurrection. They will not be "beamed up" into some celestial "other world" to watch the destruction of the earth from the comfortable perch of heaven. All of creation will finally be redeemed, God's will being done "on earth as it is in heaven," and the Church will be in the very midst of God's redemptive activity in Christ to the very end.

THE DANGERS OF COMFORTABLE SCRIPTURE INTERPRETATIONS

A very practical bible reader never takes a hard stance on an issue such as a physical

lift off into outer space in view of the fact that in as many verses that seem to convey

an appearance in heaven, there are many revelation verses that also indicate otherwise


REVELATION 16:15 among many others, can equally be quoted to support the interpretation of Christ meeting believers on Earth, takes nothing away from the "clouds"
of 1 Thess 4

JESUS IS STILL TELLING US TO WATCH FOR HIS IMMINENT RETURN AFTER NEARLY ALL

THE VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH ARE POURED OUT ON EARTH, that is ALL HUMANS ARE ON EARTH THROUGH THE VIALS, with Christ NOT RAPTURED ANYONE YET--

You must realise that A COMFORTABLE BELIEF is easily convincing WHILST A non rapture belief tends to be ANNOYING but ONE MUST NOT GET PERSONALLY INFLUENCED BY
COMFORT OF A NICE RAPTURE TO BLIND oneself to the other verses which do not support a rapture.

IS IT NOT BETTER TO PREPARE ONESELF FOR A RAPTURE AND THE EQUAL POSSIBILITY of a non physical space lift off rapture TO AVOID THE INTENSE FRIGHT, SHEER TERROR, INTENSE FRUSTRATION, PAIN AND ANGER AT NO RAPTURE??

Some one made a good point about the Jews and their expectations of a MESSIAH. The Jews were expecting A MESSIAH BUT WHAT THEY THOUGHT HE WOUOLD COME TO DO WAS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HE STOOD FOR AND HE WAS CRUCIFIED AS GOD HIMSELF PROPHESISED.

THAT IS THE FIRST BIGGEST EXAMPLE OF HUMANS having a totally different interpretation of God's word... IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE AND can happen again.


ISSUE NUMBER 2.

THE DANGERS OF MAKING YOUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT REVELATION.

--- REVELATION 6:1-7 MENTIONS 4 HORSES

Now these horses WERE NEVER SEEN and the seals DID NOT INVOLVE PHYSICAL HORSES

--REVELATION 13 THE BEAST WITH 7 HEADS AND TEN HORNS--AGAIN, THIS BEAST WILL NOT BE SEEN IN THE FORM OF A CRAZED ANIMAL--This represents human empires/governments/human religous organisations etc-- NOT AN ANIMAL DRAGON

--- AGAIN THE WOMAN RIDING THE BEAST REVELATION 17:1-6 does not represent some female human being to be seen riding some beast-animal-- THAT IS SYMBOLIC

In the same way, we are in no position to assume that the VISIONS OF HUMAN FORMS IN HEAVEN DO NOT REPRESENT THEIR SOULS IN HEAVEN whilst their flesh bodies actually are not really PHYSICALLY LIFTED OFF INTO OUTER SPACE-- VERY deadly comfort level assumption.

REVELATION 14 CANNOT BE ASSUMED TO BE AN EVENT THAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE EXACT SAME WAY IT IS DESCRIBED THERE--IN FACT--GOD DOES NOT SPEAK DIRECTLY IN THE HIGHLY SYMBOLIC BOOK OF REVELATIONS.

WHY DO WE ASSUME A VISION OF 144000 IN HEAVEN ACTUALLY MEANS A RAPTURE
when VIRTUALLY ALL EVENTS IN REVELATIONS DEPICT SYMBOLIC not everyday physical day to day life events?


IN THE SAME WAY REVELATION 19:9 SAYS BLESSED ARE THOSE INVITED TO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB----- THIS APPLIES TO BELIEVERS AND IN NO WAY CONFIRMS THAT HUMANS WILL BE LIFTED INTO OUTER SPACE.

Revelation and other end time visions INVOLVING VISIONS OF PEOPLE BEFORE THR THRONE could mislead people to think that we will actually witness physical lift offs into outer space heaven.

No, the actual events could likely not involve any such humans flying out FOR EVEN AT THE END the new Jerusalem comes down to earth NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND, and SAVED BELIEVERS are still losing their lives on earth IN REVELATION 14:13

I MEAN THE RAPTURE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE BUT GOD SAYS IN REVELATION 14;13
BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO FROM NOW ON DIE IN THE LORD--- NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE EARTH'S HARVEST IS REAPED, A VERY BLOODY, SAVAGE, DEATH FILLED HORROR IN REVELATION 14:14-20

AND JESUS IS STILL TELLING US TO WAIT FOR HIS IMMINENT RETURN EVEN LATER WHEN THE VIALS OF WRATH ARE POURED OUT IN REVELATION 16:15

Palatka44 said:

We are not to know the day or the hour and I believe this as it is the Word of God. Jesus did not know. He sill does not know but is anxiously waiting to gather us unto him (2 Thes 2:1, Rev 14:14-20). There is an event (2 Thes 2:3) holding back the angel that gives our Lord the Word to thrust in his sickle to reap the earth. After this (2 Thes 2:1) God's wrath is come and another reaping takes place in Rev 14:19.
As to the day or hour is of this event (Rev. 14:14-16) we do not know. As to the year, month, or week I suggest that we will be able to almost know. I say this, almost know, for one reason, we have all the events given and we should know, if we are avid Bible students.

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THIS IS THE DANGER--- YOU tend to look for verses that teach a physical lift off from earth BECAUSE OF FEAR OF of God's wrath.

THEN COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHY JESUS HAS NOT RAPTURED ANYONE EVEN AS FAR FORWARD AS REVELATION 16:15

JESUS IS TELLING US TO WAIT EVEN AFTER ALL THE BLOODSHED, THE EARTH'S REAPING AND THE BLOODY VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH ON EARTH IN REVELATION 16:1-15

JESUS HAS NOT RETURNED FOR THE CHURCH BY REVELATION 16:15 and this does not take anything away from Christ's promise of salvation.

Patmosman_sga said:

It has understandable appeal to those who see the Church as a "voluntary organization" or as an "insurance policy" against fiery judgment. But its underlying tenets are not reconcilable with the traditional view of the Church as a living organism, the Body of Christ, involved in an ongoing mission of redemption which will be accomplished in the midst of--and in spite of--persecution, tribulation, suffering, and martyrdom. In the end, the righteous will be vindicated in the resurrection. They will not be "beamed up" into some celestial "other world" to watch the destruction of the earth from the comfortable perch of heaven. All of creation will finally be redeemed, God's will being done "on earth as it is in heaven," and the Church will be in the very midst of God's redemptive activity in Christ to the very end.

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I agree with this insightful post. The comfort of the interpretation of a physical rapture

is TOO ATTRACTIVE TO MILLIONS who would flock to churches and fill the collection boxes with money. I mean humans are human and when reading the Bible, it is so easy to see interpretations THAT MAKE ONE FEEL very safe and takes away all fear of fire and pain.

HOWEVER, that may not be the true Gospel and it is time for people to read the scripture IN DETAIL FOR THEMSELVES and avoid being cast into the net of assumed safe nice rapture away from the pain on Earth.

It is better to prepare for both non-rapture and a rapture FOR THE BIBLE IS NOT BASED UPON THE RAPTURE HENCE THE RAPTURE must not become a CENTRAL THEME FOR THE CHRISTLIKE BELIEVER who is prepared for anything-- not indirectly seeking escape from the earth.

Originally posted by Donny_B in Post #2:
...Christ's imminent return at any moment...

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Note that the scriptures don't anywhere teach that Jesus' coming to gather us together can occur at any moment, but they teach the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 Paul teaches that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 Paul is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." The scriptures don't teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

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Originally posted by A Brethren IN CHRIST in Post #5:
...God hath not appointed us to wrath...

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Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming Jesus for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that Jesus is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, fallen angels, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from Jesus, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

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Originally posted by A Brethren IN CHRIST in Post #5:
...Marriage of Christ and the Church in Heaven...

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Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that Paul says that at the 2nd coming "the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed... when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), for death will have been swallowed up in victory for all of us believers; and the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with this same 2nd coming and resurrection in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory... And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him" (Isaiah 25:8-9).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb shown to be at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

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Originally posted by A Brethren IN CHRIST in Post #5:
...Watch...

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Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

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Originally posted by A Brethren IN CHRIST in Post #5:
...ye know neither the day nor the hour...

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Compare: "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). Note that Jesus is referring to when "the Son of man cometh," and he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye", in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:44. I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.

2 thes 4:16 describes the trump of God .........Rapture
1 cor 15:52 the last trump we will all be changed this verse in connected with the above verse

In Rev 8:3,7,8 ect are the angel sounding the trumpet of wrath on the
earth



wow God calls us and saves us from the day of wrath
thank you Father

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

2 thes 4:16 describes the trump of God .........Rapture
1 cor 15:52 the last trump we will all be changed

In Rev 8:3,7,8 ect are the angel sounding the trumpet of wrath on the
earth



wow God calls us and saves us from the day of wrath]\
thank you Father

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Not so fast Revelation 16:15 CHRIST IS YET TO RETURN-- keep watching for my imminent return after the WRATHS OF GOD are poured out.

Do not live and base your life on Fear.

Do not intepret scripture in a way as to avoid truth in Revelation 16:17.

Atkin said:

Not so fast Revelation 16:15 CHRIST IS YET TO RETURN-- keep watching for my imminent return after the WRATHS OF GOD are poured out.

Do not live and base your life on Fear.

Do not intepret scripture in a way as to avoid truth in Revelation 16:17.

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16:15 seems to me to be yet another warning to the Jews who did not accept Christ, similar to the ones around 32ad.

Trumpet -- then Rev. 14:14 (as Christ illustrates) -- then vials of God's wrath with the latecomers coming -- then 16:15, the warning that the time of the end of the vials is near, and Chapter 19 is close at hand.

Hi Will

Give me a call. Thursday and Friday were busy, busy.

OK OT: Being the intelligent and studious young man that you are, I would like you to check out the following links, in depth.
http://www.prca.org/articles/amillennialism.html

And: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/DEVENTER1.HTM

I am neither pre-trib nor dispensational. I hold to the amillennialist view of the end times. The above links will provide adequate explanation for my position.

cbk said:

16:15 seems to me to be yet another warning to the Jews who did not accept Christ, similar to the ones around 32ad.

Trumpet -- then Rev. 14:14 (as Christ illustrates) -- then vials of God's wrath with the latecomers coming -- then 16:15, the warning that the time of the end of the vials is near, and Chapter 19 is close at hand.

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You see the danger of expecting the scripture to sing your tune? Where in the Bible verse of Revelation 16:15 does it mention this Jew deception AND when did Christ promise preferential treatment for anyone?

Jews? They have had enough time since 32AD approx to accept Christ. Over 1950 years.
Which Jews? Why not Budhists, Mormons but Jews? Anyone can read the Bible. The New Testament is available to all.
Which scripture teaches of SPECIAL TREATMENT to certain people AFTER THE HARSH sacrifice of Christ. That is not scripturally supported. There is no PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT for any set of people in the Human Godly population.

No one is restricting the Jews or Muslims from reading the Bible, and God DOES NOT OPERATE ON SIGHT BUT DEEP FAITH otherwise His word would not hold true.
Did you say latecomers?

Christ warns all in the wedding parable regarding the 5 ladies who were latecomers.
This is an interpretation (latecomers, Jews etc) which is NOT MENTIONED IN REVELATION 16:15 that is deliberately made to fit a theory.

The JEWS (more time for salvation) ARE BEING USED TO MISLEAD PEOPLE by end time prophecy "constructors" and unfortunately this misleads them too.

This is a deceptive strategy that people may be using to placate themselves..

==== THE 1000 YEARS IS NEARLY OVER---- IT IS NOT A FUTURE 1000 years, a future Hoax.
THERE IS NO physical in the clouds space transfer of people OUT OF EARTH
An angel binds Satan for "a thousand years" Rev 20 1, 2 The result is that Satan cannot deceive the
nations for "a thousand years" (v.3). John sees certain souls living and reigning with Christ "a thousand years" (vv. 4, 6). The rest of the dead lived not again until the
"thousand years" were finished (v. 5). When the "thousand years" expire, Satan is loosed, deceives the nations, and makes war against the saints (vv. 7-9).
Thousand year period of Revelation 20 is a figurative description of the entire period from Christ's exaltation until shortly before His second coming.
After a short time of intense persecution of the church - the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 and the "time of trouble" of Daniel 12:1- fire from God will devour
the ungodly in the second coming of Christ (cf. II Thess. 1:6-10).

THIS IS THE DANGER-- being caught by surprise BY THE NEXT sentence

Then follow at once the final judgment and the eternal state, heaven and hell (Rev. 20:1 1ff.).

Very dangerous for the rapture deceivers and future kingdom of wine and 1000 years
of wealth.

The dispensational pre-millennial position requires a belief in an unbiblical dualism, which sees "heaven" and "earth" as two separate creations; the world "up there" being entirely "good" and the world "down here" being entirely "evil." From a biblical perspective, however, "heaven and earth" are two realms of a single created order which God has declared "good" and indeed "very good." The Fall has tarnished all of creation and, therefore, all of creation stands in need of redemption and will, at last, be redeemed (cf. Romans 8:20-21).

The cosmic dimension of eschatological salvation is largely overlooked by all popular "schools" of eschatology, often importing many aspects of Christ's eternal reign (eg. universal peace, suppression of all evil, God's presence filling all of heaven and earth) into a temporal reign of a "thousand years." But dispensational pre-millennialism is the worst offender of all because it not only engenders the false hope of a "millennium" of pleasure but also the false hope of a "snatching away" to heaven before all hell breaks loose on earth. The essence of dispensational pre-millennialism can thus be summed up in one word: escapism.

Atkin said:

Not so fast Revelation 16:15 CHRIST IS YET TO RETURN-- keep watching for my imminent return after the WRATHS OF GOD are poured out.

Do not live and base your life on Fear.

Do not intepret scripture in a way as to avoid truth in Revelation 16:17.

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Rev 16:17 and the seven angel poured out

1thes 4:16 trump of God


DIFFERENCE YES