I'm EXLDS now bought by the blood ;-)

Drotar · Jul 25, 2003

Alma said:
Actually, that one was reliance on the Greek translation.

Well that's comforting news. For a second I thought "Elohim" was Hebrew. :scratch:

You'll have to forgive us- sometimes we apostates can be a little slow and mixed up.

Alma said:
I realize thats how recent translations have handled the word, but Jesus said it referred to Gods. (See John 10:31-34) It would have been easy for the Jews to reply as you have and said, That doesnt mean gods it means powerful judges or kings. They didnt, though, they picked up stones to kill Jesus instead.

Actually, they picked up stones because of John 10:30. Read John 10:35. They weren't going to stone him for bad theology, but for making himself out to be God.

The reason why didn't say that was because they both KNEW what it really meant. Jesus himself didn't imply that, and the Pharisees knew that He knew that too, and that He wasn't claiming that. Rather, John 10:35.

Alma said:
I didnt even mention the Trinity. Calgal claimed that a plurality in the Genesis account was faulty and I pointed out the scriptures that demonstrated it isnt faulty. Its there. Now, if you want to interpret that as the Trinity, thats your prerogative, but that is a very very late interpretation.

It is my prerogative as certainly your is yours.

As for a late interpretation, that opinion is your prerogative too. The pluarity account wihtin the Trinity came much sooner than the Mormon church.

We should stray away from opinions. Let's just use hard facts.

Alma said:
I guess youre coming from the idea that Isaiah 44:8 and following teaches strict monotheism in the Catholic and Protestant sense. (Moslems think trinitarians are polytheists as well.) I think that a careful examination of scripture indicates that the typical orthodox interpretation of this passage is mistaken. It reads, Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

I think that the only legitimate and consistent interpretation of this passage and ones similar to it is that God is speaking in a relative rather than absolute sense. The question isnt whether or not God knows something, but whether or not he acknowledges something. God is omniscient; yet, he says that in the day of judgment, and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Obviously, that doesnt mean that he didnt know of these people, it means that he did not acknowledge them for what they professed to be. Similarly, in Isaiah, the Lord challenges the people to bring forth their gods of gold and silver and wood, and he challenges them to demonstrate any truth: Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. In the next passage, he points out that the children of Israel are his witnesses and they can know and understand that there is no other God but him. Certainly God knew that the people had made their own gods, but he does not acknowledge them as gods. I know not any is the same context as I never knew you.

Actually I was referring to 44:6. I am the first and the last, aside from me there is no other God.

Nothing about acknowledging there pal. Just being the FIRST and the LAST, and there being none beside Him.

I also was referring to 45:5.

And 46:9-10.

Alma said:
There is a sense in which the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God; but there is another sense in which there are, scripturally, other gods. I have yet to see a responsible refutation of Jesus application of Psalm 82 as he used it in John 10. Im perfectly comfortable in the concept that in a relative sense there is only one GodFather, Son and Holy Spirit; and that in another, absolute sense, there are more Gods than one. Its explained by Paul: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Allow me to give the verse and context. 1 Corinthians 8:4-5 if I remember correctly. Now, note he says taht they are so-"called" gods, thus explaining the parenthesis, and then moves on to say that there is only one God. The text referring to whom are all things, and we in Him- could you throw me the Greek? Type it here. I don't seem to have my interlinear on me.

Alma said:
Psalm 82 begins with the phrase, God stands in the congregation of the gods and among them will judge gods. No matter how one tries to negate the fact of that scripture, he is left with the unimpeachable statement that God stands in the presence of other gods. (Please recognize that even though Im following the standard convention of capitalizing only references that refer to a singular God, these are entirely arbitrarythere are no capital letters in Hebrew and the earliest Greek manuscripts had no miniscule letters, they were ALL CAPS (as it were.)) Additionally, as you continue into the psalm we have the Word of God declaring, I have said, ye are gods. The question might be asked, Who are the ye referred to here? Fortunately, that phrase has been interpreted by the Lord Jesus Christ. He said, If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? So, those to whom the word of God came, are called gods, and Jesus said that scripture cannot be broken. (literally, repealed or annulled from the Greek luo.. I cant stress strongly enough the importance of Jesus having commented on thisor on the fact that orthodox Christianity keeps trying to wriggle out of its plain meaning. His comment was a direct refutation of the claim by the Jews that Jesus was blaspheming by making himself God.

Unless you think Jesus was calling the Pharisees gods, you have to accept that He was merely calling them "gods". (Yes I just typed it that way on purpose) Leaders and figures of power in their community. It's a play on words. Or it means that there a billions of gods with their little planets that were once humans that achieved exaltation. Your call man.

Alma said:
Given the above facts, reconciling Isaiah 44:8 (or any other scripture stipulating monotheism) is pretty straightforward. As I see it, if you interpret that passage from the perspective of strict, absolute monotheism, there is a contradiction between it and Jesus interpretation of the 82nd Psalm. If on the other hand, you allow that God is condemning the idea that a god could be formed by smithing or carving, there is no contradiction. In relationship to this earth or even to all eternity, no god has ever been manufactured and none ever will be. They are, however, born.

Jesus used that verse in saying, "If you as men call yourself gods, then how much more a right do I, the Son of God, claim to say the Father and I are one?"

They threw stones because Jews then, just like today, are anti-Trinitarian.

TTYL Jesus loves you!

Drotar · Jul 25, 2003

Alma said:
You need to read my post more carefully, Will. I wasn't claiming that Satan is exalted, or even a real God.

John 20:28 is an excellent example of the fact that Jesus is God. I'm not sure I understand what you want me to say about Acts 20:28.

Alma

Honestly do I have to elaborate on everything? To quote:

Calgal said:

Originally Posted By: calgal

Please tell me what is biblically correct about believing a man can be a god with his own planet.

Thanks!

Then you said:

Im fairly well versed in LDS theology as well as arguments against Mormonism by its critics; yet, there is no scripture anywhere about anyone being a god with his own planet except for Satan. You do recall that Paul said Satan was the god of this world? (2 Cor. 4:4)

Then I said:

So you're saying that Satan is an exalted being? That HE created this world because he is the god of it, rather than Elohim? Giving that verse to supprt that concept of exaltation and henotheism just cost you.

You see: you used that verse to support taht there are actually verses that refer to gods with planets. (Calgal asked

Originally Posted By: calgal

Please tell me what is biblically correct about believing a man can be a god with his own planet.

Thanks!

.) Then you pointed out, in the Bible, where you find evidence for the belief that someone "can be a god with his own planet" (see Calgal's post.) That evidence you posted in rsponse to Calgal was "You do recall that Paul said Satan was the god of this world? (2 Cor. 4:4)".

But if you take that verse to literally mean that, as you just did, then you imply that Satan himself was an exalted being.

As for John, thank you for agreeing. Was He a God at the time Thomas said that? If you take John 20:28 literally in reference to Christ, then you have to confess that He was a God already.

Look deeper. "Which God has purchased with His own blood."

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Alma please give an answer to these.

How do you explain that in the last little while DNA testing has been done on all native american tribes and there is not a single lick of DNA relating them back to the Hebrew people? In fact 99.6% come directly from Asia and the other .4% is of either European or African descent.

What about Joe smith PROPHESYING that he would sell the book of mormon copyright in Canada and when it did not happen he claimed that "some prophecies are of man, some of God and some of the devil?" Do you really follow a prophet who does not even know Gods voice?????

What about the book of mormon saying Jesus was born in Jerusalem? My Bible says it was in Bethlehem.

What about the word 'Adeiu' (sp) being in the book of mormon? Not thinking this was a Hebrew word.

What about the book of mormon supposedly being written in "reformed egyptian"???? Seems to me that the Jews hated the egyptians and would have never embraced their language.

What about in the book of mormon Joe smith claiming they used, Steel, Cement, Cimeters, Horses, Cattle, all of which were not on this continent at that time?

The mormon burning in the bosom is only a clue of what is to come unless they accept the Jesus of the Bible. There are so many problems with the mormon "scriptures" that it is funny that any inteligent person would choose to embrace them. Think man, THINK!!!

Oh, and btw. The idea that God came down and had sexual intercourse with Mary is blasphemy. Please dont spend eternity in hell with joseph and brigham.

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Oh, and wasnt Jesus supposed to "wind up the scene" in something like 56 years according to Joseph???

Wasnt the temple and the city of zion to be built in Missouri in that "generation" and the people of zion to inhabit that land from that time forward forever??

Come on alma (lol) you have to be smarter then this.

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Oh and wasnt the book of mormon "translated" by the power of God and the wording would not go away and new type appear until it was written perfectly? Why then is there 3,972 changes to it since its first publication?

Why is there nearly 8,000 changes to mormon canon in its entirety?

Why does the lds church not use josephs "inspired version" of the Bible?

Why did the temple ceremony change so drastically a couple of times? Why take out the penalties?

Why did joseph cry out the masonic distress signal when being shot instead of calling out to God as a real prophet would?

Why did the one who was being taken as a "lamb to the slaughter" kill three people and then get called a "martyer?"

Why was joseph tried and convicted of stone seeking and leading people astray by supposedly being able to find treasure on their lands by looking through "seer stones" before the book of mormon and its stones were supposedly given to him?

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Oh and what about joseph seeing the kinderhook plates and finding them to be actual plates and then the creator of the plates later coming out and telling the truth about them?

Why was the church teaching that God the father and Jesus were polygamists and that Jesus was the groom at the wedding in caana??

Why did joseph say that he had more to "boast than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the latter day saints never ran away from me yet.... When they can get rid of me, THE DEVIL WILL ALSO GO."

Why did brigham teach that we would need josephs permission to enter Heaven?

Why did the "three witnesses" to the book of mormon late get called such things as ignorant, dumb a#$es, fools, evil, vile, LIARS, by joseph smith?

Why did one of the "witnesses" of the plates later say that his viewing of the plates was not in fact anything more then with "the eye of faith?"

Why in conclusion is so many people decieved and led down to destruction??

Because Jesus claimed that many false prophets would arise and decieve many. Are you going to be one of them???

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Oh, and you say that the teachings given my brigham are not doctrine but only his teachings. While this alone is absurd. I would love to have seen Isaiah say something like that. Anyway, the fact is that it was taught and also, brigham stated that any sermon he gave and was given the chance to correct was as good as scripture and would be accepted as doctrine. Now, I think brighy had time in the ensuing 21 years to "correct" his adam-god teaching. Fact is he continued to teach it and reprimand the "saints" for their unbelief in this area up until the time he left this world for his coming "reward."

Alma · Jul 25, 2003

ByGrace said:
Oh and what about joseph seeing the kinderhook plates ...

You might want to turn down the hysteria meter there a little, bub. (Any question that needs more than one question mark indicates hysteria.) It seems pretty clear that you dont expect me to respond to everything youve posted over the past 20 minutes because an adequate reply for each comment you made would take more time than I care to invest. But, I think you already know that. The intent of your messages clearly wasnt to get answers; rather, it was to try to overwhelm any attempt at communication. Thats ultimately the goal of anyone who is worried that the truth might surface in a measured, rational discussion.

I tell you what: I would be overjoyed to discuss any two or three of the items you brought up, if it really involved dialogue and not just cut and paste from another website. This means you would need to really use your own mind rather than parrot the thoughts of others and, youd need to understand the implications of the standards of judgment you employ. If you think you could handle such an exercise, why dont you pick what you think are the most important questions a Mormon should address, or the three items you think are clearly opposed to the Bible and we could discuss them. Try to find something substantial rather than emotional because I will expect to hold you to logical standards that cant be hidden by hysteria or other emotional conclusions.

I did answer the Kinderhook question on July 9, 2003 at 6:57 p.m. You can find it by doing a search under that word.

Have a nice day!

Alma

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

That is hilarious. I posted actual problems with your faith, of which I once was. I have been through the temple, held many offices, and even had a neato black badge to tell everyone that I was an elder. The fact is that there are serious issues and you cannot change that. Tell you what, just start at the top and give some answers. I have spent hundreds of hours researching all of this stuff and I know for a fact that it is truly the way that the mormons have done things. Answer what you want to. Hysteria? Yes, definately. I get hysterical when I see people going to hell for eternity because they choose to follow cultists. God bless you and I hope that you find truth before it is too late.

jsfrk2 · Jul 25, 2003

Oh, and btw. The idea that God came down and had sexual intercourse with Mary is blasphemy. Please dont spend eternity in hell with joseph and brigham.

Oh how very true. Alma, things maybe not "Doctrine", but it is still tought in church!!!!

Here is a little piece I put together: The Mormon way vs. the real Christian Biblical way it happened;

1. The Mormon view of the virgin birth
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer 1853,pg. 158
Therefore, the father and mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of husband and wife. Hence the virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the father. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that he only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state and that he intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.

So.... if we were to believe what the prophet was saying, we would have to believe;

1) Mary could not have been a virgin after this experience.

2) God the father is an Adulterer, because according to Mormon doctrine he already had one wife and was unfaithful with Mary.

3)Mary is an Adulteress because she was engaged to Joseph to be married.

4) God the father would have to be charged with incest, because Mormonism teaches Mary is the daughter of God from the "So-called" pre-existence.

BLASPHEMOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See Matthew 1:18,20 to see the Real story

Why did brigham teach that we would need josephs permission to enter Heaven?

Joseph f. Smith
No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet and if he told the truth.... no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences. For he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. (Doctrine of salvation, Volume 1, pg.189,190)

Apostle Bruce McConkie adds; "if it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation" (Mormon Doctrine pg. 670)

It is Obvious that these leaders supposedly chosen by God to lead the Church, dont believe in the Bible.

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

They are talking about Jesus. No other name which among men to be saved by, only the name of Jesus!!!

Wasnt the temple and the city of zion to be built in Missouri in that "generation" and the people of zion to inhabit that land from that time forward forever??

hehe, doesn't the Bible say something about false prophecies???? I think so....

A prophet will not give any false prophecies (Deuteronomy 18:22)

Joseph Smith prophesied in 1843 "there are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till the Christ comes... I prophesy in the name of the Lord God let it be written- the Son of man will not come in the clouds till I am 85 years old ( history of the Church vol 5 pg. 336)

well I think he got that one wrong....true prophets don't even get one prophecy wrong Joe Smith got plenty

I was raised in the Mormon church and I came to the truth in Christ Jesus and got saved on Jan,10,2002 I have been studying the "church history and doctrine for about two yrs now... I have a burden on my heart for Mormons, to show them the light I found in Jesus' love I will post my testimony again because it is at the very beginning of the thread, God bless you all, your brother in Christ Jesus,jsfrk2

jsfrk2 · Jul 25, 2003

My Testimony, By Brent(aka. Jsfrk2)
I was raised in Oregon in a Mormon family, my Father, Mother and five siblings.
We were a happy family, we played the family games and went on family trips and Sunday service every Sunday. We were not the richest in families, but I think the Love more than made up for it. All of our family took their place in the Mormon ways, My Father was an elder, Mother attended the Relief Society classes , and me, my Brother and three Sisters went to our respective Sunday school classes.
Life went on like normal til I was about 15, I was living in North Dakota with my sister who was in the Air Force because I wasnt doing well in school, skipping school and stuff, I got the news that my mother was ill and me and my sister went back to Oregon to see our Mother, she had cancer. We stayed until her funeral and after that I soon moved back to Oregon and I got into a lot of trouble after that, like drugs, drinking, hangin out with Gang members. I was never taught how to pray to God for strength, it was always the church to whom you were supposed to look to for everything.
I was smoking, drinking, using drugs and getting into a lot of sexual stuff. When I became old enough to go to bars, whoa watch out! I went nuts, I was always at bars, dance clubs, and even dabbled in homosexuality. I was so lost, but didnt know it, whatever I did it wasnt enough, I always wanted more drugs, more alcohol, more sex, but it was never enough. I met my wife while I was still like this, and she was backslided out of Christianity. We partied all the time, drinking and throwing partys, going out to the clubs. Then as time progressed we got married and had a baby girl. I still wanted to party a little, the wife was all about the baby, but still liked to go out and party occasionally.
One day two Mormon missionarys came to the house and I thought this would be a good time to go back to church, the wife agreed, although she had her reservations about the Mormon church, but didnt know why, she was just raised to think they were a crazy church and werent Christians. She eventually became a Mormon and got baptized. I thought it was cool, we were happy, or so we thought... My wife and I were always fighting afterwards, soon after that my wife stopped going to church and I didnt understand why she told me that the Bible didnt match up with Mormon doctrine, I said no way, how so? Beside the Bible isnt translated correctly any way. She said, "how do you know? Did someone just tell you that or did you research that yourself?" This made me think, I was told that, I didnt have any proof or evidence that the Bible is false or translated incorrectly. So, I studied it and the manuscript history and no, it has not been translated incorrectly. So why have I been told this? Was it a lie? Or just something keeping me from the truth of the Bible? I started to study differences between the Bible and other Mormon books, like the book of Mormon, PGOP and D&C. They shouldnt have been put all together at all, The Bible says there is ONE God and he is JESUS, but Mormon doctrine or Mormon book dont say this . Why the difference? One had to be right and other wrong.. I found out that the Bible is the infallible word of God and that Jesus is LORD of all, the only God.
I was so mad that this lie could be told to so many people! But I knew who God was now, and according to his word, he wanted me to know him and to personally have a relationship with him! Without any church or man.
I was crying by this point and angry still but I knew I needed to call on God, My wife had told me about the sinners prayer and that this is the only thing you needed to do to get to heaven, not any works. God wants to know me. Me! So when I was alone moving out of our apt. I got on my knees and asked Christ to come into my life and that I was sorry for committing all my sins and that he is the only thing I needed to go to heaven. My life is drastically Changed from this point on, I just wanted to save the world for Christ and show everyone what I felt, I was more than happy that I couldnt explain it! Now I know that God has called me to be a witness against the false teaching of the Mormon Church. I want only to serve him and do his will from that day until I am with him in his heavenly mansions. I feel such JOY in serving my LORD and I just want everyone to hear of his joy and love and he does take away ALL sins forever!! Yours in Christ,jsfrk2

Alma · Jul 25, 2003

ByGrace said:
That is hilarious. I posted actual problems with your faith, of which I once was. I have been through the temple, held many offices, and even had a neato black badge to tell everyone that I was an elder. The fact is that there are serious issues and you cannot change that. Tell you what, just start at the top and give some answers. I have spent hundreds of hours researching all of this stuff and I know for a fact that it is truly the way that the mormons have done things. Answer what you want to. Hysteria? Yes, definately. I get hysterical when I see people going to hell for eternity because they choose to follow cultists. God bless you and I hope that you find truth before it is too late.

I didn't think you'd be able to handle a real discussion and I was right. If you do change your mind and think you can make the mental effort, let me know.

Alma

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:20-21

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

I didn't think you'd be able to handle a real discussion and I was right. If you do change your mind and think you can make the mental effort, let me know.

Alma

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:20-21

------------------------------------------------------------

Are you insinuating that I doeth evil? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Can you please not attack me and my "mental abilities" I am well versed in what I am talking about and also rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me but I can see now that you have resorted to slander. I am sorry that you are presented with problems that you cant wiggle out of. Dont feel bad though, not one person in your church has been able to wiggle out of them yet so they just cry out that people need more faith and that they cant handle the truth.

Alma, if you feel like bucking up there and dealing with the facts at hand then please do so. If not then your cocky attitude and seeming knowledge are definately in question.

Alma · Jul 25, 2003

ByGrace said:
Alma, if you feel like bucking up there and dealing with the facts at hand then please do so. If not then your cocky attitude and seeming knowledge are definately in question.

Then why not pick your top three complaints and have a discussion? What's so hard about that?

Alma

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Tell you what there Alma, you pick three. Or why dont you just tell me why there has never been even one archeological finding. Not one of the coins, the bodies of the millions killed in all the wars, the great cities, Nada. None of the land descriptions in the book of mormon are even accurate, like no river dumps into the red sea. Lets begin here with nothing to back it up then move on.

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Oh and please use a credible source i.e. not a mormon organization. They are famous for making up lies.

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Ummmm Helllloooooo?

ByGrace · Jul 25, 2003

Drotar · Jul 26, 2003

I have a few things tosay in defense of Alma:

First, let's be realistic. We've been overwheliming him becuase it's been 5 on one.

You got to give him props though. He did a lot better than I thought he would have. Than the others before him anyways. Having been in that exact situation before, I can empathize. I guarantee that if we went one at a time he'd still be here.

YOU TOO ByGrace? Wlikers! Myself included, how many ex-LDS do we HAVE here?

ByGrace · Jul 26, 2003

Yeah, I feel bad that I presented him with undeniable evidence. Too bad to because I was just wanting to start in on the references in the book of mormon of problem scriptures. I have about 40 of them not counting the hundreds of direct copies of the Bible and this is only the book of mormon. Hope he comes back and if not then I hope it is because he is doing some serious studying. alma, if you read this please know that the only reason I even spend this time doing this is because I am concerned about each and every soul lost to mormonism. Any sarcasm is in direct response to the attacks on my person I felt from you. Lets have a discussion now.

I'm EXLDS now bought by the blood ;-)

Drotar

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