The trinity - could somebody explain this to me?

webboffin said:

Funny, the Jews never believed in the Trinity either are you keenly aware of that? The Old Testament were Hewbrew scriptures after all.
Oh and don't misunderstand me I spend a lot of time learning this stuff, I actually do get the Bible out and not just on a Sunday once a week at church. It is now my life not just a part of it.
Consider this also: Does the Grand Creator become a creation? That is what would be needed for Jesus on Earth to be God? Maybe you could take a time to learn away from what is just said at the pulpit and sometimes independently actually read up on stuff with an open mind. But let God be our judges and humble yourself first before you ask me to humble myself.
All the best to you

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If you read your Bible like you say you do then you would know that Jesus is not on the side of creation, but rather Creator. I find it so amazing that we could have someone on this forum who claims to be in the Word and questions the Trinity. I mean have you ever done a Hebrew word study of the OT? There is plurality added to singular nouns speaking of God, etc. It is so clear and blaringly obvious that God had wove a context of the Trinity and prepared the way for Him (as Jesus part of the Trinity) throughout the OT. The concept of Jesus flew over most people's heads during the time as it is, the idea of Trinity is hard initially to accept to a culture that was doggedly monotheistic....but the Trinity doesn't change that. AND it's there-in the OT- I mean, really, it's staring you in the face.

shawn_h76 said:

Like it or not people trinity states there are THREE gods.
lets state the tirnity doctrine:
One God that indwells in,

1. God the father- seperate person
2. God the son- seperate person
3. God the holy spirit- seperate person

The trinity states that each person in the Godhead is seperate. The trinity doctine also states that each person is God. So if each person is God and they are sperate, then they are three sperate Gods!

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I'm sorry, but that is a mistatement of what Trinity is. You may disagree with Trinity, but Trinity states that there is one God in 3 persons. Three aspects of God. The verses you quoted from the NT are ones the Trinitarians used to support their hypothesis.

Jesus is the great I AM.
John 8
58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." you must believe Jesus is God.

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And that is what Christians do believe. This verse is one that got Jesus in trouble with the Jews. The "I am" is what the Jews called God. It comes from the response of the burning bush: "I am (yhwh or yahweh) what I am." So, when Jesus said this, he was saying he was God. This was, of course, apostasy for the Jews. Which is why the Midrash says that the Jews executed Jesus for the crime of apostasy.

Trinity is God in Three Persons. Single God, 3 aspects. Go back to Tertullian's river analogy.

Trinity is not an easy concept to grasp. Scientists may have an easier time of it since we have the example of light and matter being both particle and wave at the same time. That's two "persons" in one entity. Or matter and energy are two aspects of the same underlying entity: E=mc^2. Or space and time being "persons" of the single entity spacetime.

Apparently, for you, having this apparent dichotomy is tough to grasp, therefore you try to put them in separate categories. I'm sorry, but Trinity doesn't do that.

Well explain this so called Christian trinity to the Jews. They will tell you that they never in their entire history knew or recognised God being 3 persons in 1. They were once God's own specially chosen people who DID have the truth. Judaism knows of no God Trinity! Why because it was a fabrication out of the Roman Empire centuries after Jesus' death.
The Trinity is a lie similar to other the false gods that were trinity like in nature but adopted by the Roman Empire to make other false god worshippers assimilate themselves into Christianity more easily. Been that way since.
Jesus is the begotten Son of God not a person of God. Jesus never claimed to be as equal to his Father rather Jesus wanted to be recognised as a servant of his Father.
Satan has done a good job fooling the inhabited earth. But then - for now - Satan is ruler of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4) (1 John 5:19) so it is hardly suprising!
God revealed himself in the Bible yet the Trinity is still a "mystery" concept and the Israelite prophets who wrote the OT didn't know the trinity! Face the facts!!

webboffin said:

Yes listen to the Bible not the Church. The Church did NOT write the Bible. And the Trinity was put in to play in 4th century mostly for political purposes. Well known history.

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Not "well known" history. Trinity was put in play in the second century. There was big political fight in the 4th between 2 different positions on who Christ was. Trinity won because it worked better. For most of the fight the political clout was on the side of Arius and Athanasius (the chief proponent of Trinity) at the time, spent a lot of time in exile. Still, Arian Christology couldn't win. It just didn't sit right.

Unfortunately, men, power, politics, greed and Satan have all had a hand in distorting God's true worship. Jesus had the same thing in his day with the scribes and pharisees and don't think all these priests for themselves all vanished just because the Catholic Church and their break-away variants was formed !

webboffin said:

cajunhillbilly that does not explain that the trinity is true. And no we don't have to stick to the historic teachings of the church! We should stick to the teachings of the Bible that God PROVIDED to us, that is what it is there for.

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Web, this forum is for explaining what Christians believe to non-Christians. It is not a debate on the "truth" of Trinity, but explaining what Trinity is. If you want to debate the validity of Trinity, then go to the Theology Forum and have at it.

The Trinity is a lie and an insult to Jesus and God.

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If that is what you believe, then you have to stop identifying yourself as a Christian to this forum. Christian Forums has defined "Christian" as someone that accepts the Nicean Creed -- Rule #6. And the Creed is Trinitarian. The group has said what the limits are in order to belong to the group. Doesn't say anything about the validity of your beliefs, but that you do not belong to the group "Christian" as Christian Forum has defined the group. Since you don't meet the criteria of Christian, you shouldn't be answering questions in this forum.

And you should also need to change your icon to "Other-church."

Stop telling me what I believe and what church I should put. If you notice my profile there is no reference to either! I only point the truth out from lie using fact. Nothing illegal about that!I just realised if that is all you can dispute me about then you agree I must be on the right track!

My beliefs and what place of worship I attend are not disclosed to you so no one can rightly judge me on my faith. This is a forum of christian many faiths & atheists and thus I prefer to keep my pearls out of the inter-faith melting pot.

challenger said:

Do Christians actually believe that God is physically divided into Father, Son and Holy ghost/spirit? Or is it a metaphor for the actions of God according to Christianity? If I'm honest, I'm stumped by this one.

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Ive read through a few of the posts, and if I go into too much depth, I will just be repeating a lot of it, so I'll just give you a simple answer.

God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit of God are all three separate entities, yet tied together into one. We, as humans, with our small mortal minds, cannot even begin to comprehend how a being such as God can be three yet one all at once. We all have our views, be it something stated in the past and approved by the church, or something we think it is. In the end, its pretty much what you think, because noone can define it. God doesnt fit into such a neat tidy little box.

The best way I can possibly think to view it is a three sided pyramid. You can walk around it and see each side, and then you can step back and see the whole of the three sides as one. *shrug*

Just my small mind trying to wrap around the infinite wonderful complexities of my God and Lord.

webboffin,

If you want to be a Jew that is fine with me, I have a deep respect for the Jewish people. However, if you are a Jew, then leave the explanation of the Trinity to us.

You are not christian, and therefore I have no idea why you are taking part in this discussion. For this is a forum for non-christian people to ask christians questions.

well proud2bcatholic and what are your holy credentials to judge? Who told you I was not a Christian? The Pope? Or you don't like the truth that you can not counter that is making you spit? As for me being a Jew then no, they reject Jesus Christ. I don't, Jesus is very important to me second to God. I love God and the one true God.

Webboffin,

Do you consider yourself a christian? A deciple of Christ?
I'm having a hard time grasping your theology....

Forgive me..

The fact of the matter is that by the definition of this site you are not a christian.

The definition of christian on this site includes that you believe in the Trinity, you do not.

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The faith of the Orthodox Church is that Jesus Christ is fully human, that He is a real man. But we believe as well that Jesus is not a "mere man," but that He is the eternal, divine Son of God. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By this we mean that from all eternity, before the creation of everything that exists, God Himself existed without beginning, in a manner incomprehensible to men, completely outside the bounds of time and space. In this perfection of divine existence, God the Father always had with Himself His divine Son and His Holy Spirit. Both the Son and the Spirit are exactly what God the Father is, namely perfect, unchanging, every-existing, timeless, spaceless, beyond human comprehension, etc. In a word, whatever can be said or understood about God the Father can be said and understood about the Son (also called the Word, Logos, Wisdom, and Image of God) and the Holy Spirit. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus there are Three who are divine, each being what the other is and each being in perfect union and unity with the other. These are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit: the Holy Trinity. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now we believe that it is the eternally divine and perfect Son of God who was born as a man from the Virgin Mary and lived on the earth as Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah (Christ) of Israel and the Savior of the world. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus it is the Orthodox faith that Jesus is fully human and fully divine; the Son of God and the Son of Man, one and the same Son. [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As the unique divine-human person, Jesus saves the world by teaching the absolute truth of God; by forgiving the evils of all men and the whole world; by suffering and dying in innocence, voluntarily and unjustly on the cross in order to be with all who suffer and die; by rising from the dead in a new and glorified form; by taking our humanity to God in order to make it divine forever; and by sending the Holy Spirit of God to men who believe so that they could teach and do the very things which Jesus Himself both taught and did...that they could, in a word, be sons of God in Him. [/font]

Forgive me...

I don't need to confer to the C.F....... never mind.....
I really feel for you guys, honestly. No sarcasm this time.

Listen, just forget it, you just go on doing what you think makes you happy.

Cya, you have my thoughts.

Thanks a lot to everyone who posted here... well most of you anyway... I'm a Christian and I believe in the Trinity, but I've never really fully understood it, you guys have really clarified it for me, it's a lot easier to understand now anyway, again, thank you and thanks to Challenger for asking this question!

try to believe in God rather than the Church

The question is simple enough to answer. God is tri-une: in the same way, a person is also tri-une, being comprised of body, soul, and spirit.
Freud did away with "seats" of these aspects, labelling them id, ego, and super-ego. Even so, the basic three divides remain.

The OP asked if the Trinity can be understood. The simple answer is no, it cannot. The reason is that it never was supposed to be understood, only contemplated.

Here's the problem. In Greek the word theoria means contemplation. In Western usage it became theory, something to be proven. The men who formulated the doctrine of the Trinity never intended it to be taken literally. It is provisional theology written to help us understand how to relationship with an unknowable God. Too often we turn our metaphors into metaphysics.

While the truth of the Trinity may be found in the Bible, the doctrine as taught in Sunday School is nonsensical.

Erwin has just made a Liberal Christianity congregational forum that debuts this weekend. It is not for folks who want to hurl epithets, quote catechisms or anathematize their brothers and sisters in the Lord. I hope webboffin and others drop in. We all might learn something, assuming that is still possible.