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The trinity - could somebody explain this to me?
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Orthodoxyusa you do not suprise me in the least. Satan misleads the entire inhabited Earth. Jesus didn't omit the churches from that statement.
Satan surely proves himself worthy as being the Prince of Lies.
Satan surely proves himself worthy as being the Prince of Lies.
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Jesus said who do people say I am.
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
If Jesus was only a man or Prophet, there would be no salvation. For what Adam could not do only God him self could. Jesus was foretold about his coming from the very moment that Adam sinned.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
For there has been many people who do not know where to place Jesus.
The Arabs place him as a Prophet.
Many people place him as a good man.
Then there are people who just down right hate him.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible.....BUT the meaning of who Jesus is.........Is all threw the Bible. He is the Father......Son......Holy Spirit..........all in one.
Why do people have a hard time placing Jesus?
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
If Jesus was only a man or Prophet, there would be no salvation. For what Adam could not do only God him self could. Jesus was foretold about his coming from the very moment that Adam sinned.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
For there has been many people who do not know where to place Jesus.
The Arabs place him as a Prophet.
Many people place him as a good man.
Then there are people who just down right hate him.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible.....BUT the meaning of who Jesus is.........Is all threw the Bible. He is the Father......Son......Holy Spirit..........all in one.
Why do people have a hard time placing Jesus?
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Because it is a lie. History will tell you it is. Most people believe it because they are told it from the pulpit and they themselves will not bother to check it's validity or are persuaded by church leaders not to find out. To reduce our Sovereign Lord to 3 persons when there is in Truth, One God - One Person. Babylonian traditions have soiled true God worship. But the Bible already said it would happen.
And the scriptures you offer lend no light at all to the existance of the trinity.
And the scriptures you offer lend no light at all to the existance of the trinity.
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ps139
Ab omni malo, libera nos, Domine!
Amen. If Jesus were not God, Cavalry would mean nothing.MinDach said:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Did you mean to say "the meaning of who God is" ??
Jesus is the Son, not the whole Trinity.
Isaiah 9 prophesies the Messiah, One who will be both God and Man. The names given to the Messiah in that passage are only used for God.
[bible]Isaiah 9:6[/bible]
After Jesus resurrected He appeared to the apostles, to Mary and to other followers of Him. When Thomas first saw Him, he exclaimed "My Lord and My God!" If Thomas had been incorrect in calling Jesus "God," Jesus would have corrected him on the spot. But He did not, because Thomas was correct in calling Jesus "God."
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GEN 3:15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. [HE] will bruise you in the head and you will bruise [HIM] in the heel.
Corrected the ps139 scripture posting.
God was talking to Satan. He will put enmity between you [Satan] and the woman [The Heavenly Organization] and between your seed [Satan's Organisation] and her seed [Jesus' Organization]
He [Jesus] will bruise you in the head [destroy Satan forever] and you [Satan] will bruise him in the heel [Jesus' sacrifice for mankind's ransom but his death not permanent and shall rise]
Says little about Jesus being God or the exisitance of the trinity. Just says what we already know - Jesus will come to Earth a perfect man [Second Adam] and die sinless for our sins.
Corrected the ps139 scripture posting.
God was talking to Satan. He will put enmity between you [Satan] and the woman [The Heavenly Organization] and between your seed [Satan's Organisation] and her seed [Jesus' Organization]
He [Jesus] will bruise you in the head [destroy Satan forever] and you [Satan] will bruise him in the heel [Jesus' sacrifice for mankind's ransom but his death not permanent and shall rise]
Says little about Jesus being God or the exisitance of the trinity. Just says what we already know - Jesus will come to Earth a perfect man [Second Adam] and die sinless for our sins.
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But no matter what evidence is put for exposing the trinity lie - those that want to believe it no matter what will stay blind to believing it.
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If Jesus was God then why did Satan try to tempt Jesus in the desert? Matt 4:1
God cannot be tempted! James 1:13 and God tempts no other man.
Did Satan forget?????
Angels can be tempted to sin even perfect ones hence we have Satan who sinned.
Don't give use the weak excuse....... that Jesus (claimed God person #2) could be tempted as he was in the flesh. That is nonsense because it would still violate James 1:13 [God cannot be tempted] if Jesus was God. We can't have scripture being violated! Bible is Truth and every utterance of God is unchangeable.
Now if Jesus was an angel even an archangel then it is a different matter Jesus could possible be tempted to sin like the third of angels in heaven that followed Satan. Satan knew that! Hence Satan already proves that Jesus is a creation of God - His begotten Son. Jesus is a loyal angel of God and stayed loyal to his Father. The Trinity came about in the 4th century over 400 years after Jesus's death. Stuck with the Church ever since. But it is a lie - an untruth. The trinity can be exposed in so many ways for it's fallacy that the Truth that God is one person is the only true light that can shine from the evidence. But people won't care. Satan is a master at deception. 1 John 5:19
God cannot be tempted! James 1:13 and God tempts no other man.
Did Satan forget?????
Angels can be tempted to sin even perfect ones hence we have Satan who sinned.
Don't give use the weak excuse....... that Jesus (claimed God person #2) could be tempted as he was in the flesh. That is nonsense because it would still violate James 1:13 [God cannot be tempted] if Jesus was God. We can't have scripture being violated! Bible is Truth and every utterance of God is unchangeable.
Now if Jesus was an angel even an archangel then it is a different matter Jesus could possible be tempted to sin like the third of angels in heaven that followed Satan. Satan knew that! Hence Satan already proves that Jesus is a creation of God - His begotten Son. Jesus is a loyal angel of God and stayed loyal to his Father. The Trinity came about in the 4th century over 400 years after Jesus's death. Stuck with the Church ever since. But it is a lie - an untruth. The trinity can be exposed in so many ways for it's fallacy that the Truth that God is one person is the only true light that can shine from the evidence. But people won't care. Satan is a master at deception. 1 John 5:19
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
First of all, Where do you think the bible came from? It didn't just fall out of the sky one day. In fact, the church existed for almost 400 years before the bible was ever canonized. Your ideas that the book supercedes the writer is what's corrupt. Speaking of corrupt, you insist that the church is full of men subject to corruption. Are you not a man? Or is it that you believe yourself to be so much more holy and pure than all others who came before you? Self righteous ignorance of Christianity and ignorant rejection of what God has revealed through His church has left you with a blind shallow crumb of what the faith actually is. As I said in my earlier post, the trinity does not seek to define God, it reveals more of Him in order that our love for Him might be more complete. You can't love what you don't know. This is why God reveals these things to His people, in order that they might love Him all the more.webboffin said:
As for scripture, let's examine the evidences:
let's begin at the beginning Gn 1:26(emphasis added)
"26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth."
Here we see, God making a self reference in the plural. That's odd isn't it... Why'd He say "WE"?
Now, we'll look a little bit ahead at Gn 18:1-6 (emphasis added)
"1 And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day.
2 And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near to him: and as soon as he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground.
3 And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant.
4 But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree.
5 And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken."
Hmm. There we go again. Here in the same scripture you claim to follow completely, we see Abraham (who I'm sure knew God a little better than you do) referring these three men as Lord and falling down in adoration. Notice that he didnt say "Lords, if I have found favor in your sight..." though it's clear from His language that he sees three persons.
These appear to be oddities in the mystery of God in scripture until Jesus comes and reveals it more clearly.
We'll begin with Mt 28:19 (emphasis added)
"19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."
Hmm, there's that oddity again from the Old testament, but now Jesus gives those "three men" names. Notice that he says in the name of... not names of... there are 3 names, why not refer to the three plurally? Why baptize in all 3 names? The answer is that they are indeed one name but still three.
Now, let's look at Lk 3:21-22 (emphasis added)
"21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened.
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove, upon him. And a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son. In thee I am well pleased."
Here we go again. Here, we see clearly all three persons present at one time. We see obviously Jesus being baptized, and we hear the voice of the Father from heaven, and we also see the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. Hmm, this is too much!
Now as for Jesus never claiming divinity, let's see if that's a "tradition of man" or if there's any scriptural merit...
We'll begin with Jn 10
"30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him.
33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou. being a, man, makest thyself God.
36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest; because I said: I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father."
Hmm, here, things get ugly when our Lord says "I and the father are one". The Jews knew exactly what He meant and saight to stone Him. Even after He make reference to the miraculous works He performs in relation to this claim, they are unconvinced. Notice that He doesn't say "oh, you misunderstood, I didn't mean to say I'm actually God, lemme rephrase that" He simply reaffirms and solidifies His earlier claim in relation to His works which give testament to His claim.
There are many other times particularly in the Gospels where our Lord says things which are lost through translation and through cultural differences. Like in the Gospel of Mark 6:50 "They had all seen him and were terrified. But at once he spoke with them, "Take courage, it is I, do not be afraid!" . Here, the hilighted is better rendered "Take courage, I AM". Of course "I AM" is instantly recognizeable by any Jew of the day who is familiar with scripture. It' is how God refers to Himself in the first person.
In closing, we've barely scratched the surface of of the evidence for Jesus' divinity as well as the trinity. To simply reject God's revelation about Himself is to effectively limit your own ability to love Him.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
Your theology is a crooked distortion of truth. In fact, it's reminiscent of the early church heresy Arianism and also smarts of modern day Jehova's witness theology.webboffin said:
At any rate, if Jesus was merely an angel, He could not pay for all mankind the debt for sin which is owed only to God. This is why when Jesus says in Scripture, "your sins are forgiven" the Jews murmor among themselves saying "only God can forgive sins". They are right! Only God can forgive sins because the debt for sin is owed to God alone. No angel or man can pay this debt because the debt is infinite. All created beings are finite and thus unable to cancel the debt even for themselves let alone all of mankind...
As for Satan's knowledge of Jesus divinity, he wasn't sure. Satan is not omniscient (though he has a terrific memory). Satan suspects that Jesus is the Son of God but in his language, he exposes that he's not completely sure. However, it's interesting to note, that from this point on, all demons who Jesus encounters immediately know who he is and try to call him out...
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Yes listen to the Bible not the Church. The Church did NOT write the Bible. And the Trinity was put in to play in 4th century mostly for political purposes. Well known history.
I have said nothing wrong there!!!!
Your points are too numerous better go from point to point in forums instead of drowning out everything in a sea of anger.
Try explaining my point away in post #89 and we can go from there.
I have said nothing wrong there!!!!
Your points are too numerous better go from point to point in forums instead of drowning out everything in a sea of anger.
Try explaining my point away in post #89 and we can go from there.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
Done in post # 91...webboffin said:
What's more, your "well known history" is not quite as reliable as you've been led to believe. If you study the writings of the early church fathers in regards to the denial of the divinity of Christ, you'd have a better understanding of the faith as a whole. Jesus said something in scripture whch you need to consider:
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What you're asserting is that the church is inherently corrupt and that effectively, the Gates of Hell not only prevailed against it, but that it happened almost immediately. As for the bible not coming fro the church, where do you believe it came from then? What's more, why do you believe it's the inspired word of God?
The fact is, The church fixed the canon of New Testament scripture after the coucils of Carthage and Hippo from ~390ad - ~419ad. I'm not sure what revisionist history your accepting as true, but secular as well as church history attests to these facts.
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Magisterium said:
Is that your best?
Jesus was perfect so that paid the price ransom for the sin of perfect man - an eye for an eye. Read it in your bible.
Satan of course he knew who Jesus was - What are you thinking????
Satan was a heavenly righteous Angel once. He knew who God was and he knew who Jesus was. Obviously you cannot find any good reason to counter my arguement with reason.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
You've got to be kidding me!webboffin said:
You're not even trying! Perfection alone is not what is lacking in mankind for the forgiveness of sin. you haven't even addressed the fact that the Jews were keenly aware of this fact. I dont really have the time now to bring in all the prophesies and OT scripture which explain this fact, and also this is not a debate forum. However, I think it's clear to anyone reading this exchange, that your theology and scriptural "understanding" are lacking. Until you find the humility to examine the truth with intellectual and prayerful honesty, there's no fruit to be gained here...
God love you...
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ProCommunioneFacior
I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)
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I don't know where your theology comes from you go to a faith healing church or something?
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ProCommunioneFacior
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weboffin,
Why does God refer to Himself as "we" or "us" in the OT?
Explain that.
Why does God refer to Himself as "we" or "us" in the OT?
Explain that.
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ProCommunioneFacior
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For example,
Genesis 1:26
Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
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Magisterium said:
Funny, the Jews never believed in the Trinity either are you keenly aware of that? The Old Testament were Hewbrew scriptures after all.
Oh and don't misunderstand me I spend a lot of time learning this stuff, I actually do get the Bible out and not just on a Sunday once a week at church. It is now my life not just a part of it.
Consider this also: Does the Grand Creator become a creation? That is what would be needed for Jesus on Earth to be God? Maybe you could take a time to learn away from what is just said at the pulpit and sometimes independently actually read up on stuff with an open mind. But let God be our judges and humble yourself first before you ask me to humble myself.
All the best to you
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