well we're testing [i]something[/i] ;)

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Assignment:
read Luke 23:38-43

concepts to grab:
1)The thief who was saved, what 3 thoughts must he have thought to say what he said?

2)Does this passage suggest that 'good works' are nesecary for salvation?

3)What is nesecary for salvation according to this text?

Bingo, you read what you already know. You nailed B and C. I think we should catch a couple verses that deal with A.

Couple verses that deal with concept A:
Proverbs 9:10
(this next one is wierd, but important. ((flesh=people))
Isaiah 40:6-8
(and here comes the most important one of all... (Maybe even pray for understanding right before you read this one)?
Isaiah 44:6-8


Now, after reading these, is there anything that the thief said that shows that he had some understanding of these verses? Is there something in these versed that the unsaved thief didn't have?

(about Mark 9:23)
yeah, there's a common thread here too, can you find it?

royboy said:

He showed that he was afraid.
He shows that he understood that people die like grass.
He shows that he has heard of jesus and what jesus can do.


Does that mean that if I fear god, and have knowledge of jesus, I can be saved afterall?

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It's all about God.
God=
We=

look at those verses again. They are all talking about how big God is. When a person really understands that God created the whole universe and doesn't live in it. And really understands that they are scrawny compared to God. It is then that God says "Okay, now that you aren't trying to do it on your own anymore, you just step aside and let Me take care of things."

Ever watch the Matrix? know that scene where Neo tries to bend the spoon? That little girl says "You can't bend the spoon, that is impossible..."
God is like that. You can't work your way to Him and you can't think your way to Him, you can't logic your way to Him, and you can't evaluate your way to Him. The only thing we can do is say "God, you are too big, I can't do it." Then God does it.

did that make any sense? I don't know.

royboy said:

Does that mean that if I fear god, and have knowledge of jesus, I can be saved afterall?

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Well, yeah. But fearing God is hard. It takes work to remember just how much bigger He is than my petty little problems. (At least it's work for me.)

I'm just throwing stuff out there, I don't know what is going to click. Anyway, try this:
Mark 10:17-22

The story goes like this (I am paraphrasing big time)
guy: "Jesus how do I get saved?"
Jesus: "You know what the Bible teaches.:
guy, "well, yeah, but why don't I feel saved?"
[Jesus looked at him, loved him]
Jesus:"You have all the head knowledge, but you need the heart knowledge. Your god is money. Give up that god and then your heart will be in the right place to serve me."

As you read this passage, ask yourself if it fits to say that not all Christians must give up their money to be Christians, but all Christians do have to give up whatever gets them out of bed in the morinig unless it's God. (read also verse 24)

royboy said:

I don't understand. I'm by no means rich, but is god against successful people?

If we sell all that we have, how long will we survive in todays society?

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The rich guy didn't have to give away his money to get into heaven. The rich guy had to give away his god.
It's all a state of mind thing. You can be rich and go to heaven, but you can't trust money and go to heaven. Whatever you trust, you have to trust God most. Some people trust that their good works will get them to heaven. Some people trust that their theology will get them to heaven. Some people just trust that heaven doesn't exist.
Just like the thief on the cross, the only way to come to God is to come helpless. It's not about us, it's about Him.
I really don't think there are very many Christians in the US and Canada. I think too many of us don't have to rely on God. We're making money, we don't have to worry about how we will eat tomorrow. we totally miss the fact that our food and our bed and everything that makes our lives cush will be gone when we die. What can we take from this life to the next? Maybe our relationship with God, and our relationship with others? I don't think anything else...

Heres a scripture that talks about this. This church was pretty rich. The whole town made their money by selling eye salve and clothes and they were big time bankers and money lenders. They lived in a little valley and on one side of them was a town which was famous for their natural hotsprings where people would come from miles around to go soak in the hot mineral rich water. There was a town on the other side of them whose water was cool, clear refreshing snowmelt water. The water in Laodecia was actually lukewarm and gross to drink because it was full of minerals. It didn't feel good to sit in because it wasn't hot enough. It was useless water. Notice how all of these images are drawn out in the passage. Notice that they are called wretched, blind, and poor. This is just the opposite of what they thought they were. They had money, fancy clothes, and eye ointment. They trusted things that stay on planet earth when they die. Anyway, read Revelation 3:14-22. See if you can find what the Laodecians trusted in, and see if you can find what they should have trusted in.

saying "I trust God" is different than living it.

royboy said:

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked

Well I guess the Laodecians believed in their money and not god.

But what if you see money as a means to an end and not an object of worship.

What if you see money in terms of flying the extended family over for a wedding, more gifts for the little ones, a better college for your children?

What if it's not the money you worship, but the good things that money can provide.

I'm sure if things like plane tickets, toys, and college fees were free, people would stop worshipping money quick smart.

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you got it.

Money is great for lost of stuff. Read Ecclesiastes 10:19. Ecclesiastes is intensly practical. The whole premise of the book is "Everything is meaningless except for God, but some things are useful during our meaningless life." Anyway, Ecc. 10:19 says money (and wine, btw) is good. (As long as it is not before God.) If you are interested and decide to read the book, keep in mind that the dude writing this book was really smart, and he used his wisdom to see what the 'good things' in life were. His discovery is kinda cool, he says enjoy good food and drink, enjoy your work, basically enjoy everything you get in this life with your wife at your side, just remember, it's all meaningless and the only thing that really matters is fearing (knowing) God.

royboy said:

I read a bit further and I liked this part.

ecc 11:1 Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and the sight of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.


I guess it says enjoy the earthly pleasures, just keep in mind that you will be judged.

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Wow, you have just quoted one of my favorite verses. And yeah, you interpreted it the way I read it. By the way, there is another place in the Bible where this one prophet gets really mad at a whole city because they are under siege and they are all going starve to death in a couple months because no one can leave the city and get food. They decide to party like crazy before they get killed instead of work on a plan of action. Anyway, I guess it kind of ties in with Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 There's a time for everything, including a time to celebrate, and and a time to get to work.

Is jesus still necessary if one follows this way of life?

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Good question
Read Acts 17:22-34
Here's a little background. Paul was working his butt off converting people to Christ. He was making a lot of other people mad and they following him around and starting riots and were basically trying to make his life miserable and get him killed or in jail or anything to make him stop. Paul's friends were like "Paul, you're a marked man, get out of here, take a vacation. We'll take care of this."
So they sent Paul to Athens. Paul doesn't know how to take a vacation very well so he starts preaching to the Atheniens to get them saved too.



Try to get yourself into the mindset of the Atheniens. It was the most upwordly mobile, cosmopolitan city of it's day. They were big into spirituality, in fact, you needed a license or something to be allowed to speak about your version of spirituality. When the big time philosophers heard Paul talk, they were like "Hey, you got a license to talk like that?"

(this is a summary of Acts 17:16-21)

Now, when you start reading at verse 22, you will see how Paul talks to people who have never heard the story of Jesus. They took him to the Areopagus to decide wether or not they should let him preach but he just starts preaching right there. When you get to verse 30-31 you will find the answer to your original question.

royboy said:

Acts 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.


But the assurance was only to those who witnessed it.

Does really god mean for me to believe just by hearing reading about something?

If I am to believe one book and one person, how am I meant to disbelieve another book and another person?

There are a lot of convincing books and people out there.

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Jeremiah 29:13-14a makes a promise that holds true for each and every person who lives, or has ever lived on earth. (go read it)
The challenge is getting to that point. Some people get there just by reading the Bible. Some people get there by seeing the Christian life in action, some people get there when their life looks so hopeless that they have nothing else left.

Make sure you understand that we are talking about two separate issues here. The story of how God choses to redeem people will never change. It is set in stone. The thing that changes is our response to the message.

Would this be a time of ignorance (for me) that god would be willing to overlook?

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I don't know. If you have ever had your spirit quickened by hearing somone preach the word, and then not followed through on what you heard, then you are propably accountable for your actions. If you have never heard the word, then maybe not.
Read Luke 8:4-15 I think that verses 12, 13, 14 and 15 explain the four (and only four) possible responses to hearing the Word. The question is have you ever actually heard the word? I would not be quick to say that you have heard it. You may have, I don't know. You certainly have heard bits and pieces. Assuming you have heard the Word, you propably aren't like verse 12 because you have questions.

Let's back up a little bit. You know the seed talked about in Luke 8:4-15? We're going to go through the Bible and pick that up.

In Acts 8:26-36 there is this rich Ethiopian who is reading the book of Isaiah. The book of Isaiah was about 7-800 years old when the Ethiopian was reading it. He was reading a book of the Bible, but it didn't make any sense to him. He lived in another country and he never met Jesus personally and he never lived in any towns that Jesus visited. All he had to go on was talking to people who claimed to have an encounter with The Guy. Phillip comes and explains the story to him (plants the seed) the the Ethiopian gets baptized.
By the way, this guy was rich, he never saw Jesus with his own eyes. He pretty much has as much to go on as anybody alive in North America today.

So, go ahead and read Acts 8:26-39 and tomorrow I'll try to do what Philip does in verse 35.

If I am to believe one book and one person, how am I meant to disbelieve another book and another person?

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It's a God thing. Look at it as disbelieving everything except what God makes grow.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God made it grow.
1 Corinthinas 3:6

Okay, here's the story of the world according to the Bible...

In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth... The start is pretty basic. This is pretty much general revelation. We're here, the universe is here, the whole place is fairly organized, looks like somebody made this place. Let's call Him God. Now, what is God like and what does He want? The rest of the Bible unfolds the answer to this question.
One of the first things that happens in this new planet is people mess it up. (with the help of the devil) God gave people the earth to "rule over and subdue". God told people "not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." God gave people the "authority" to chose wether or not they are going to listen to God.
(By the way, whenever I use quotes, I an quoting the Bible. So far, everything has come from Genesis 1-3)
Remember, if this stuff is true, it is really true. It's not just subjective truth, or an allegory to fill a theological need. If it's true, thew we'd better throw away our modern empiricism and our post-modern subjective truth and believe this stuff in a real, concrete, true sort of way. As you read on, you will see contracts being made, and literal prophecy being fulfilled and it all has no teeth unless it is true in the same sense that 2+2=4.
Anyway, back to the story...Man screwed up and God told man the consequences of what they did. God told man that he was going to work for his food and women would desire somone to take care of them, but they won't want men because men are screw-ups now but women are going to be stuck with men because there really is no other option if they want to be taken care of. God told the Devil that "the seed of the woman would crush your head, but you will strike his heel." This is the first reference in the Bible of Jesus being crucified, and rising from the dead. His heel was struck when He was crucified, and Satan's head was crushed when Jesus rose.
By the way, this is not 'plan B' for God, He always planned on dying to take care of us. I don't know why God does what He does, but I think this was His plan because He wanted to show all His creation exactly how loving He is. Phillipians talks about us being on display for the "principalities and powers of the air" Wierd, huh? We are an example of the loving nature of God for angels! Also, 1 Peter says that Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" So God knew that He was going to send Jesus to save us even before day 1 of creation.
Back to the story... So man screwed up, and Genesis 3-12 just kind of shows man wallowing in their serewed-uppyness and then Abraham comes along. Abraham didn't know much about God (at least the Bible wasn't written yet, I'm sure he knew at least various oral traditions of creation, I don't know how much he knew through special revelation) At any rate, whaterer he knew about God, the Bible says "Abraham trusted God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." There are lots of cool things to look at in the life of Abraham, but the one we are going to focus in on is the covenant God made with him. God promised Abraham land, decendants, a nation, and that "his Seed would bless the whole world" Pay special attention to that last one. The Seed being spoken of is Jesus. Galatians which was written thousands of years after the covenant says this directly. They had a wierd way of sealing a covenant in that day. They cut up animals which was supposed to represent the fate of the person who broke the covenant. This is actually a doccumented practice outside of the Bible as well. So Abraham splits a bunch of animals in half and God anthropomorphically walks between the animal halves in the form of a smoking firepot. So, understand, this is a binding contract which cannot be altered upon penalty of death. The deal is this: If Abraham's seed does not bless the whole world, may God die.
Flash forward a couple hundred years, the Isralites have been freed from slavery, they occupy the promised land and they are a mini force to be reconned with in the off chance that they happen to be obeying God that generation. Notice, the first 3 parts of God's promise to Abraham have been fulfilled. He god decendants, they got land, and now they are a nation. But what about the last part of the covenant? When will Abrahams Seed bless the whole world?
Now God makes another covenant. This time with King David. David wants to build God a temple (visible legacy). God says "No, you have shed too much blood. Instead, I, God will build you a visible legacy. I , God promise that you, David will always have one of your decendants on the throne. And there was always a decendant of David on the throne in Israel. That is of course untill Jesus. Jesus is a literal decendant of David, and he now is eternally on the throne since He rose from the dead.
After this the Jews pretty much had it figured out that some Isralite (which means decendant of Abraham) from the line of David was going to come along and fulfill all these covenants that God had been setting up.
Prophets would write crazy things about this future Messiah and not even know what they were writing, only that God prompted them to write. They would say stuff like "He will be borne of a virgin" or "Form Bethlehem" or "They will hang him on a tree" (even though crucifixion hadn't been invented when they wrote that down.) There is literally hundreds of little blurbs about what Jesus will be like, or what is going to happen to Jesus in the Old Testament. 1 Peter says that the prophets didn't exactly know what they were writing, only that it had to do with salvation. (1 Pet. 1:10-12 if you are interested)
The stage is set, God promised that Abraham's Seed would bless the whole world, God promised that David would always have an heir on the throne, and God's honor is at stake if He doesn't follow through.
Then comes Jesus. Jesus fulfilled every little stitch of prophecy about Him that was written in the OT. Jesus fulfilled the allusions and wierd imagery from the OT. For example, there is a time in the OT where all the Isralites were dying from snakebites. Moses makes a big gold snake, and puts it on a pole and anyone who looks at the snake gets healed. Oddly, some people refuse to do a simple thing like look in a particular direction and consequentially, die. This is a reference to the simplicity of looking toward Jesus for help coupled with the absurdity of it being that simple. There is another time where where the Isralites are dying of thirst and Moses is commanded by God to strike a rock and a stream of water gushes out. This is a picture of Jesus being struck (crucified) only to produce living water for anyone who would have it.

The Bible says we are all sinners. I didn't need the Bible to figure that out, just looking around prooves that pretty quick. We aren't getting any better, either. The Bible also is so intracetly interwoven that is would be impossible for the Old Testament to have that much imagery line up with the reality of Christ having been written mellinea prior. Oddly, all these cute little analogies didn't convince me that the Bible was true. They made me have a hunch that the Bible could be true, but the thing that convinced me that the Bible was true was God. I cried out in desparation that I couldn't get to Him. I told God that I couldn't 'sense' His presence. God basically said "finally, I've been waiting for you to realise that you couldn't do it, now let me take over."
The Bible does a great job of leading a person to God, but before all the studying in the world can do any good, a person has to repent, and turn from whatever they are pursuing that leads them away from God, and start pursuing God wholeheartedly.

The deal is this, we are all a bunch of screwups, we can't fix our lives on our own. Even if we have a million dollars in the bank and a hot wife, we're still going to die some day. God said "There must be blood for the remission of sins." God righteously, not indignantly will demand blood for each and every sin that you and I commit. God made a contract with Abraham. God shed His own son's - an the Seed of Abraham - Blood for the remission of sins. If you wanna get in on that contract, and get somebody else to shed their blood for you, all you gotta do is ask God. Just understand, this stuff is real just like 2+2=4. We're talking about real justice, real truth, and real events. It doesn't work to trust that the Bible might have the path laid out for humanity, you gotta trust the Bible just like you would trust the laws of aerodynamics before you get on an airplane.

peace